Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

Shattered Glass You think that Hayden is this earnest young reporter, doing his very best and you find out that he has manipulated everyone!! It's really wonderfully done.
And Life as a House he starts out 'bad' (confused more like) and ends up good.

So in both movies, he's playing both good and bad facets of the characters. I think he will bring that mixture of both to ROTS very well. Anakin/Vader needs that mix to be believable.

 

Now we got this party going! Whoo!

The one thing that makes me stop reading a fic is a total mischaracterisation. I love AUs to tears, but if the characters don't act like they should, I just can't continue. There are tons of stories out there I've re-written in my head because they were great ideas, but the characters strayed off the path. In fact, most of the JA (haven't read the JQ yet because the books are always checked out at my library) is like that for me. I had to read them--who can get enough of Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan?--but they weren't the characters I knew from the films.

I have found that the best way for me to really understand a character is to write from the point of view of a character that I either don't like, or write about an aspect of the character I don't comprehend. It's amazingly insightful, and when I'm done, I find I can write the character even better than I could before.

For instance, on writing Vader, I went back to that wonderful ending of RotJ. I know fanfic writers have done the scene to death, trying to get into Vader's/Anakin's head, and extending it into an AU where he lives beyond it. There's some great ones out there, but I wanted to give it a go, too. I wrote this piece back in December, and it covers all the stuff that's been discussed here in regard to Palpatine and Vader--their relationship, how Vader currently views his life right at the point where everything's about to change.

Sneak peek of my forthcoming story:

Come to me, my friend, his master's voice called to him through their bond. The voice in his head was pleasant; the presence behind it was not. It clawed at him with untold energy, as icy as the lightening striking Luke was burning. The Emperor's disappointment in this turn of events (or lack thereof, Vader mused acridly) scraped raw against his soul. He felt unable to fight against the power that commanded him to rise and stand beside the creature that continued to torture his son.

"Young fool...," the Emperor gloated as the glow of lightening glimmered around the room, its focus pooling around the writhing mass of distorted agony. "Only now, at the end, do you understand."

Was his master talking to him or his son?

Luke clasped a canister to prevent falling over the edge of a bottomless pit. He would not be able to hold on much longer.

The Emperor continued, "Your feeble skills are no match for the power of the Dark Side. You have paid the price for your lack of vision."

Yes, his lack of vision. Vader realized the Emperor may have been directing his commentary to his offspring, but the words were meant for him. His master had known from the very beginning of his search for "Young Skywalker" that Vader's plans were self-serving. The Emperor is old, Vader had reasoned in his private chambers where he felt safe to remove his mask, let down his guard. I will show my son the true nature of the Force. He will join me, and together we will rule the galaxy. Visions of the Emperor's destruction lit the fire in his eyes, burned passion in his belly, and gave him the hatred to fuel the Dark Force within him.

His master's words were a warning. When this little nuisance of "Young Skywalker" was dealt with, the Emperor was going to turn his rage on him.

"Father...please," a voice gasped from below. "Help me."

Vader focused his attention to the heap on the floor, bright light wrapping itself around a dark figure. He would soon be a shadowy echo of that figure. He had been that many times before, gasping for breath, for release, for freedom from an unrelenting stream of rage and anger.

He is not that bad, as masters go, a voice he had not heard for decades came back, unbidden. The stream of life that flowed through his veins led him from one master to another, and another...and another--always darkening his steps to this final moment. Remembering his mother's voice shook him. When was the day he had turned to the Dark Side? The day he turned and walked away from his childhood home--he f

 

I went to a screening of Shattered Glass, and the director Billy Ray was there for a Q&A afterwards. My favorite scene was where Stephen Glass apologises to Chuck Lane and says he doesn't want to be left alone, because he's afraid of what he might do. Lane doesn't believe him.

So I asked Ray if he thought Glass was being sincere and truly distraught, or just acting. He said that Hayden believed Glass was telling the truth. Now I wonder if the Anakin/Vader thing influenced his opinion. Because with Vader, there was always that bit of humanity in him - it just took a lot of effort by Luke to pull it back out. Maybe with Glass it was the same thing, only he didn't have a Luke to support him at the very end.

Hayden really seems to like the dual-sided characters, doesn't he?

edit: And I'll have more to say, once I catch up on all the uber-posts here.

 

You might also want to watch the movie Shattered Glass Hayden plays Stephen Glass in such a creepy way that it gave me chills - So I knew he'd be able to play Vader well...

I'll keep an eye out for it. It was pure luck that I saw him in House, because I wasn't even aware that he was in it at first. I just thought the movie looked interesting. But yes, I'll look for Shattered Glass. Only problem is finding it in English...

And, um, what's it about?

The one thing that makes me stop reading a fic is a total mischaracterisation.

Nods. Yep. And the absense of paragraphs and horrible spelling/grammar. But essentially, I can learn to turn a blind eye to those aspects. It's the characterization that kills me. Absolutely drives me up the wall and the fic gets an immediate 'back button'.
I have found that the best way for me to really understand a character is to write from the point of view of a character that I either don't like, or write about an aspect of the character I don't comprehend. It's amazingly insightful, and when I'm done, I find I can write the character even better than I could before.

Best way to do it. A wonderful writing excerise and fun to do at the same time. It's amazing what you learn when you put yourself into the place of someone that you don't know that well/ an aspect that you're not familiar with. There's that saying 'walk two moons in someone else's moccasins' (I think that's it) and it always strikes me how true it is.

This is what you get when you stop separating light from dark, black from white, good from evil. You turn from the Western idea to the Eastern philosophy--life and nature (thus, God and the Force) is the balance of life's duality. On one side, the demons; the other, the saints. God is the fulcrum upon which all rests.

Yes, yes, yes! Totally agree with you there. And in this case, Anakin would be the God.

This discussion is getting good!


My thoughts exactly. This is the only place where I can get stimulative discussion. My German class at school is a joke (since I'm in Germany, German here is like an English Class in the US, so it's mainly a Lit class) and in English, most of the kids don't understand my points (the disadvantage to being the only native speaker). And forget talking stuff like this over with my 'friends'... Really, I trully love this thread. It's so wonderful to be able to discuss something like this.

 

And in this case, Anakin would be the God.

I would die to know what George really had planned for the movies after Jedi. A lot of fans have put their ideas in story format, and there's the EU novels, but I can't see any of them as being anywhere near where it should go. After all, the story has always been about Anakin. So how could the Final Trilogy exist without Anakin? It can't! In the EU, the last time we see Anakin is him asking for Leia's forgiveness, then he fades away. Eventually, even Obi-Wan cannot continue to appear. In George's original script, RotJ had Obi-Wan returning to the physical world! So you've got to wonder....

 

I would die to know what George really had planned for the movies after Jedi. A lot of fans have put their ideas in story format, and there's the EU novels, but I can't see any of them as being anywhere near where it should go. After all, the story has always been about Anakin. So how could the Final Trilogy exist without Anakin? It can't! In the EU, the last time we see Anakin is him asking for Leia's forgiveness, then he fades away. Eventually, even Obi-Wan cannot continue to appear. In George's original script, RotJ had Obi-Wan returning to the physical world! So you've got to wonder....


When I first saw ROTJ, I wondered what was next. At the time, I figured it would be something with Luke and the others building a new Republic. But it never really seemed to fit. I read the EU books through in 2000 and stopped right before I got to NJO. All right, I'll admit that part of it was my dislike for the Mara/Luke relationship (which I'm still not a fan of), but there was always something missing in those books... and now I know what it is.

Anakin.

Anakin is missing in them. I think he appears to Leia once in one of the Zahn books (it's been five years since I read them, so my memories are a bit hazy), but otherwise his presence wasn't there. And at the time, I had no clue what it was. Now, it all makes sense.

Without Anakin, there would not be a Star Wars Saga. Anakin is the link between them all. And with him gone- what happens next? Lucas would have to find someway to bring him back into the movies- but how? Though if he originally planned to do it with Obi-Wan, then that might work with Anakin. I'd like to see that, actually...

Anyway, it does make me wonder. Part of me wants a tv series, just to blow the EU out of the water (yes I admit that I dislike the post ROTJ EU immensly), but to also see what Lucas thinks might happen next. But then it wouldn't have Anakin in it... and I'm not sure if it would seem like Star Wars to me then.

Anyway, I think that's the reason I can't invision the SW Galaxy post ROTJ. My mind always blanks out when I try to come up with something. I've been wondering the last eight years why I can't come up with anything at all and now it makes sense. Anakin, Anakin, Anakin. The 'missing link' to them all...

BTW, that excerpt you posted, agentj- is that from a new fic? And if so, when are you going to post it?

 

Anakin, the missing link.... Heh. I have some ideas that have spouted into full-fledged plot bunnies in regards to "what next?" in the SW saga. The one I like the best is the one I started writing when I was about 10 years old, although I had been day-dreaming it since I saw ANH back when I was 7. I even wrote an early version of it for the official SW fan club and entered it into one of their contests (was devastated that I didn't win, place, or anything! ha!). Now I can finally articulate it. As soon as I get to all these other plot bunnies hopping around my head....

Yes, that's for a post-RotJ fic I plan to post in Beyond the Saga--as soon as I finish "Keep Falling Down." It would be unfair to start another long story when I've still got one in progress. And I promise I'm still working on that one!

About the Emperor/Palpatine/Sidious torturing Anakin/Vader--there's a couple of stories on the board here that explored that well, but I can't remember the name of it or who wrote it. One in particular had Palpatine turn off Vader's breathing unit. That was so chilling. You'd wonder why Vader would put up with that, and I'm with you in thinking "Vader's not strong enough" is a lame excuse.

Anakin/Vader is in denial about everything in his life. He said as a young boy that he didn't want things to change. But life is change. In order to not see the changes in his life, Anakin denies them, puts a "certain point of view" on them. So his tortures, for instance, were to him like a lesson for him to clasp to the Dark. Sidious was training him to use the Dark, to become a stronger Sith Lord. So now they're not torture, they're a Master's lessons to his Padawan. Sidious is teaching him not to hold anything back, to his mind. A "tough love" lesson, if you will.

If somebody knows what story to which I was referring, speak up. I wanted to re-read it again.

 

It would be unfair to start another long story when I've still got one in progress. And I promise I'm still working on that one!

Good to hear! And true... It really isn't fair. Then again, I can never seem to resist. At the moment I have *counts* seven stories at least that are all supposed to be novel length- that I'm 'supposedly' working on- and it really isn't fair to my readers to make them wait for me to update (and some of those fics I haven't updated in over a year). But I can't resist starting on new things... I admire the resolve of those who can.

I've been trying to write post ROTJ for years and I can't. Maybe if I come up with a plausible way to bring Anakin back, however, I might try again.

One in particular had Palpatine turn off Vader's breathing unit.

Ooh...I want to read that. Too bad that you can't remember the name.


Anakin/Vader is in denial about everything in his life

Yes... Part of Anakin's fall was because of his dislike/fear of change. Anakin wants power- so that he can 'bring things back to life' and 'control death'. In AOTC, for instance, in the Lars' shed with Padme, we get that explained for us and it's a pretty revealing moment. Anakin's just confessed to his future wife that he's murdered the Tuskens, all of them- committed a horrendous mass murder- and yet he doesn't seem to feel that remorseful and instead talks of wanting more power, so that he can control things. Which is...not good, not good at all.

As you said, change is life. Yet Anakin can't grasp this. He can't understand that some things have to change. He can't understand that some things have to die, just as some things have to grow. It gives him this narrow view on things- he doesn't look at things from a grey perspective anymore, but a black and white one. If he can control the situation, then good. If he can't, it's bad and he either has to fix it or turn a blind eye...

Denial can be, as portrayed in SW, a great crutch/weapon. Anakin's denial of certain subjects that he can't accept/ doesn't want to accept is basically holding him back. If he'd actually wake up, for instance, and open his eyes, realizing that things have changed and will continue to do so, then I don't think he would have been in such a bad situation as he turned out to be in...

 

Ah! This thread moves too fast It seems I can't be gone all day like this. Now I've quite a few comments to make but I'm beat.

Tomorrow I plan on starting the next story in my Obi-Wan/Anakin/eventually Luke series... so yes, Anakin is still worrying me as I'm constructing that in my mind. I know most of my readers are 'Obi-Wan fans', but I delight in the times they actually like Anakin or, better yet, dislike Obi-Wan. No one's perfect, guys.

I did want to comment on the JA though... I think you hit the head on the nail. I just never felt like the characters were quite right. I feel that some writers here have done a much, much better job with them. The problem I see is that a lot of people still use that JA template of 'character history'. It can be ok, but I really enjoy it when people can create interesting and perhaps more plausible backgrounds than what we get in the books.

I haven't read JQ, either. I read a little bit of Rogue Planet and, though I'd heard it praised at TF.n books for its characterisations, felt like Obi-Wan and Anakin were both off in that one... I don't know, maybe there's something in fanfiction, the fact that people do it for passion and without any kind of pay, that can make them a lot more heartfelt and genuine. I find that fanfic authors put a lot more thought into their work, a lot more research and all sometimes than the pros do.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

One story worth mentioning as regards the Emperor?s opinion of Vader is the one in SW:Tales where some Dark Side adepts recreate Darth Maul, as they feel that Darth Vader (still infected by the remnants of Anakin Skywalker) is not a worthy apprentice.

It is only after Vader has killed ?Maul? that the Emperor reveals himself and reduces the adepts to skeletons with force lightning. Although the Emperor assures Vader that he came as soon as he learned of the plan, and had arrived as quickly as possible, there is the very definite implication that he?d have been happy enough to have ?Maul? replace Vader had ?Maul? managed to win (and would, as they had thought, have rewarded the Adepts for their service in giving him a better apprentice).

There is also a less definite implication that Vader, although he doesn?t challenge the Emperor?s assurances, is not fooled and sees the further proof that the Emperor regards him as at least semi-disposable (which is not exactly the best way to assure someone?s loyalty).

 

As for the JA, you can really do a lot with the character history - make it richer, change it slightly to make it more effective as a story. Plus there are some resonances between the relationships of Xanatos/Qui-Gon and Anakin/Obi-Wan that can be exploited.

As for the JQ, there have been flashes of things that can be used. When Anakin goes through the mind-numbing, you can almost taste his desperation to no longer feel. Also, his loss of his one friend because of something Anakin did, tells you a lot about his stay at the Temple and how alone he is. Other than that, fanfiction is much better.

I didn't like Rogue Planet for many reasons, characterizations, writing style, plot. But Labyrinth of Evil really showed Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship much better and it was better written. You could really see the warmth and problems between them. That one I would recommend.

 

When I first saw ROTJ, I wondered what was next. At the time, I figured it would be something with Luke and the others building a new Republic. But it never really seemed to fit. I read the EU books through in 2000 and stopped right before I got to NJO. All right, I'll admit that part of it was my dislike for the Mara/Luke relationship (which I'm still not a fan of), but there was always something missing in those books... and now I know what it is.

Anakin.

Anakin is missing in them. I think he appears to Leia once in one of the Zahn books (it's been five years since I read them, so my memories are a bit hazy), but otherwise his presence wasn't there. And at the time, I had no clue what it was. Now, it all makes sense.

The real problem here is that Anakin served his purpose, if you buy the whole thing about the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force. Things would have to be pretty bad for the Force to allow him to return to the land of the living.

I think the real lesson of the NJO is that things weren't so bad because the Jedi had some understanding of balance, later coming to terms with the Unifying Force instead of just the Living Force. The Vong were cut off from the Force, so they weren't the huge threat that the Sith posed. We usually tend to underestimate our good friend Palpatine, so I have to pull a line from Dark Empire.

Palpatine: I live as energy...I am the dark side!

Whether it really was a delusional statement or not, people seem to forget what a real threat he was. A man that can seduce the Chosen One to the dark side of the Force is a much bigger threat than the Vong. I remember reading in the NJO that they doubted the Empire at its height could have held off the Vong. I beg to differ. Vader may not have survived, but Palpatine was more than powerful and resourceful enough to beat back the invasion.

Anakin's sole purpose was to balance Palpatine and eventually overthrow him to restore balance to the Force, leaving the only Jedi with a sense of balance in himself: Luke Skywalker. For Anakin to return, it would require a MASSIVE threat to the balance of the Force.

On the subject of characterization, it's a bit sketchy. Not everyone can write a good Obi-Wan or even a good Luke. Fan fiction authors have the option to ignore certain characters, but pros are contracted to write certain stories. They really have no choice. I usually give them the credit of trying more than anything.

I found the portrayal of Anakin in Jedi Trial to be excellent. He had matured during his time fighting in the Clone Wars, but he was still the same old Anakin we had come to love. Luceno's characterization of Anakin was nothing short of superb, but this is also because Luceno is really one of the (if not the) best in weaving the tale as Mr. Lucas intended it without being George Lucas himself.

 

Ace_Venom posted on 3/13/05 10:43am

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On the subject of characterization, it's a bit sketchy. Not everyone can write a good Obi-Wan or even a good Luke. Fan fiction authors have the option to ignore certain characters, but pros are contracted to write certain stories. They really have no choice. I usually give them the credit of trying more than anything.

I found the portrayal of Anakin in [i]Jedi Trial[/i] to be excellent. He had matured during his time fighting in the Clone Wars, but he was still the same old Anakin we had come to love. Luceno's characterization of Anakin was nothing short of superb, but this is also because Luceno is really one of the (if not [i]the[/i]) best in weaving the tale as Mr. Lucas intended it without being George Lucas himself.
[hr][/blockquote]

I agree. Both of these books had the best characterization of Anakin I've ever seen. And Luceno is great.

 

One story worth mentioning as regards the Emperor?s opinion of Vader is the one in SW:Tales where some Dark Side adepts recreate Darth Maul, as they feel that Darth Vader (still infected by the remnants of Anakin Skywalker) is not a worthy apprentice.

Well, it's my belief that Palpatine actually fears the prophecy of the Chosen One and is more than content to keep Vader around since he is in the suit with greatly reduced powers. Vader knew he was disposable, so I assume that was one reason he pursued the Jedi purge with an incredible amount of cold enthusiasm. Most of those who were left knew they were no match for Vader and either went into hiding like Kenobi and Yoda or agreed to serve the Empire like Jerec did.

Vader really had nothing to fear from people like Jerec or Mara Jade. Even at greatly reduced powers, the Dark Lord was still only surpassed in power by his master. That is, until Luke came along. Palpatine had forseen that Luke had the power to destroy him, so it was only natural that Luke could destroy Vader, which he did do from a certain point of view.

It was for this reason that Vader wanted to use Luke's compassion to draw him to the dark side so he could overthrow his master. Vader was clearly not happy with the direction of the Empire if his opinion of the Death Star is any indication.

 

I completely lost track of this thread! I'm glad it's still going and there have been some great posts.

--MissPadme

 

I don't know, maybe there's something in fanfiction, the fact that people do it for passion and without any kind of pay, that can make them a lot more heartfelt and genuine. I find that fanfic authors put a lot more thought into their work, a lot more research and all sometimes than the pros do.


It's amazing how true this is. I once spent hours a day researching stuff for one fan fic- yet my original novels that I hope to someday finish and get published I do hardly any research for. I'm not sure if it's because there's the instant gratification factor- in fan fic you get commentary (usually) right away, while 'real' literature takes a while to first appear on the shelves and then it's not personal commentaries, like you get in fan fic. But for some reason, I find it so much easier to do research for fan fic than I do original stuff. Though you'd think the priorities would be the opposite way around...

There is also a less definite implication that Vader, although he doesn?t challenge the Emperor?s assurances, is not fooled and sees the further proof that the Emperor regards him as at least semi-disposable (which is not exactly the best way to assure someone?s loyalty).


That's where the question of what Vader could do, if he ever desired to leave Palpatine, comes up. There's no where for him to go, so he's forced to stay where he is... even with a master who regards him as 'semi-disposable'.

And is SW:Tales fan fic? If so, do you know where I can find it?

As for the JA, you can really do a lot with the character history - make it richer, change it slightly to make it more effective as a story. Plus there are some resonances between the relationships of Xanatos/Qui-Gon and Anakin/Obi-Wan that can be exploited.

As for the JQ, there have been flashes of things that can be used. When Anakin goes through the mind-numbing, you can almost taste his desperation to no longer feel. Also, his loss of his one friend because of something Anakin did, tells you a lot about his stay at the Temple and how alone he is. Other than that, fanfiction is much better.

I didn't like Rogue Planet for many reasons, characterizations, writing style, plot. But Labyrinth of Evil really showed Anakin and Obi-Wan's relationship much better and it was better written. You could really see the warmth and problems between them. That one I would recommend.


I just started Rouge Planet, but I'm only on chapter 3 I think, so I don't know much about it. And while I have a book from each of the JQ and JA series, they're in German and I hate reading German books, so I've been putting them off...which means I can't really comment on how they portray the characters.

But I have read Jedi Trial. Okay, it's more like I skim-read it in the bookstore a few times (took me three different visits of about twenty minutes to get through it), and it was in German (which also means that I probably missed stuff). But I was pleased with it. I enjoyed Anakin's characterization a lot. As Ace said, he still retains his old self, yet also has matured through the wars. It's definitely a book I'd like to get, next time I happen to be in the US (whenever that may be- hopefully soon).

I haven't read Labyrinth of Evil either. It's not out in German (and this is a book that I'm so excited about that I'd even break down and read it in German like Jedi Trial) and getting it in English is almost impossible as well. But I'm really excited to read it, because I don't think I've heard one negative thing about it. Seriously, everyone says that the portrayl of Anakin is spot-on. And that's what excites me so much. I really want to see the way he's written in that book.

The real problem here is that Anakin served his purpose, if you buy the whole thing about the prophecy of bringing balance to the Force. Things would have to be pretty bad for the Force to allow him to return to the land of the living.

True... most of my post ROTJ musing was done right after I saw

 

Chosen One. Sorry, I'm laughing. I feel like Simon Peter who overhears somebody calling my best bud Jesus the "Son of God." Know what I mean? It's like, "Hey! I knew the guy! He swore, he drank, he told dirty jokes, and walking days in the desert, he smelled pretty bad, too. And you think he's God's only son?!" Heheh.

You know, when I watched RotJ on DVD and Palps says "Everything is going according to my plan," or however he says that, I'm suddenly thinking not the plan for drawing the rebels into a trap to the Death Star II but rather a much, much larger plan.

This "Chosen One" prophecy is really old. Everybody who's grown up in the Temple knows it, and every Sith knows it (because the Sith Lords, way back when, were Jedi Gone Bad). So I can see the wheels behind the Sith Lord's eyes spinning, trying to think of how to use their blind faith of the Jedi in this rusty old prophecy to destroy them.

What a perfect trap for the Jedi!

Unfortunately, I can't articulate the idea fully because it involves major spoilers for why Anakin turns. It would make Anakin look like a pawn of the Sith, which fans would just hate, but it also says some powerful things about what it means to be truly human and what it means to be in power of one's own destiny. It's what would be explored--to my mind--in the Future Trilogy. Never'll get made, of course.

 

Never'll get made, of course.


Unless you write it...

ANd I'd love to hear that idea, but you're right about it not really belonging here. Could you PM me or something? I love discussing stuff like this and I want to hear your view on it.

 

But weren't the Vong destroying the Force or something? And if so, wouldn't that be a reason for the Chosen One to come back? I mean, if the very existance of the Force is at stake, you'd think that the balance would want/need to be restored. And seeing how Anakin is the Balance, well then, wouldn't it be logical for him to appear again?

No, the Vong were simply absent in the Force. However, they didn't hesitate to destroy life or even entire worlds. In many ways, they were more ruthless than the Galactic Empire. However, the lack of a presence in the Force for the Vong did not allow them to achieve such rushes that Palpatine did when committing genocide.

Dark Empire...that sounds familiar- what is it again?

Dark Empire is the comic series where the clone of Palpatine begins a campaign against the New Republic, nearly bringing it to its knees. He also manages to seduce Luke to the dark side, who is then brought back by Leia. It's in that series where Luke begins actively pursuing a new Jedi Order.

Anyway, it is interesting, though, about Palpatine's quote. I've wondered that myself- if Palpatine himself wasn't really the Dark side itself embodied. If Anakin/Vader was the Balance, and the Jedi as a collective were the Lightside, then Palpatine would definitely be the Darkside. And the fact that it is the Jedi as a collective that make up the Lightside, but that only one person, Sidious, makes up the Darkside is very telling, IMO. And sort of explains how Vader could have been turned in the first place...

Here's where my knowledge of the EU gets sketchy. I believe Darth Bane made the remark that the dark side was getting too weak because too many people were using it. Palpatine was in a sense repeating the old mistakes of the post-Kun, pre-Bane Sith Order by attracting former Jedi to the ranks of the dark side rather than just killing them and using Force-sensitives as Imperial spies. But Palpatine always had one fallback in case something went wrong: his clones on Byss.

It is my understanding that in RotS, Palpatine didn't have access to the Jedi secrets combined with cloning technology that could allow him to transfer his essence to a clone of himself. While Anakin Skywalker may have been valuable to him in the early days of the Empire, Palpatine's only purpose for taking an apprentice would be to satisfy his own goals because unless Vader knew about his clones, which I'll wager that he did know, he really didn't have to worry about an overeager Sith apprentice wiping out his legacy. Again, it goes back to the Chosen One prophecy. He wants Vader out of the way, but he really needs a visible enforcer for his goals. Enter Luke Skywalker.

Obi-Wan yells to Anakin: You were the Chosen One. 'Were'- as in Past Tense. Since Anakin has gone over to the Darkside, apparently Obi-Wan doesn't see him as the Chosen One any more. And I see Palpatine reacting the same way- deciding that since Anakin has joined him, there is no Chosen One anymore to worry about. This of course, is foolish, but even though I consider Palpatine to be a competent and calculating villian, well, everyone makes mistakes. And he probably wasn't expecting his Apprentice to find his son twenty years later, embrace the Lightside again and throw him down a Reactor Core.

Again, I really don't think Palpatine ignored the prophecy of the Chosen One. He wouldn't have been so interested in recruiting Luke as a new apprentice. He certainly could have executed Vader and took a new apprentice, but as long as Vader was serving Palpatine's goals, he wasn't going to dispose of him until the time was right. I believe Palpatine did suspect that Anakin could be turned back to the light, but he just saw it as highly unlikely. During the days of the Old Republic, going dark was usually permanent.

That was really why Obi-Wan and Yoda doubted that Anakin could be redeemed and fulfill the prophecy. I believe they are the ones that believed the prophecy of the Chosen One was a lie after Anakin turned. They failed

 

Here's another question: Do you think the Jedi are being punished also? They were given the Chosen One to mold (however they saw fit), once they found him and felt the need to train him (IF that's what they were meant to do). Did they listen to the Force for his training or were they too entrenched in their ways to see what the Force was trying to tell them through their Chosen One? Labyrinth of Evil said that the prophecy said that the Chosen One would come as the Sith did, to help the Jedi see how to overcome. How did the Jedi deal with that when the time came? And how does this compare to the way the remaining two train Luke?


I think a lot of our questions will be answered on this one in ROTS. One thing is for sure, either out of necessity or by design, Obi and Yoda train Luke to listen to the will of the Force more than the Old Jedi trained Anakin. This is something I think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan understood, but Obi was more aligned with Yoda and Mace's view on things than Qui-Gon. He is kind of put in the middle so-to-speak. If Obi-Wan had been allowed to train Anakin as he did Luke, to listen to the Force (not the mandates of the Jedi code), would it have been different? This is not to say blame should be laid at the Jedi's feet soley. Anakin was solely responsible for the first drink of the dark side that overtook him. He chose to try the "drug" the first time. It was absolutely his decision to turn to this "drug of choice" to help him instead of going in other directions. But it does seem its a culmination of a lot of things that bring down the Republic and make them susceptible to being brought down. This is symbolized in Anakin/Vader.

 

: Do you think the Jedi are being punished also?

I end a gruelling week at school and now I have to answer that? Nah...just kidding. But let me try to get my exhausted brain back into gear...

Excelent question. And I have to say, in a way, yes. I think that the Jedi were given this chance. I haven't read LOE, but the way you said it's said there, rhoderoo, is essentially the way I see it as well. The Jedi Order is on the brink of failing. Yoda remarks in AOTC that many Jedi have become arrogant, for one thing, and through out the prequels, there's constant talk of the Jedi loosing their ability to correctly 'read' the Force. I think that the Jedi loosing their 'intuneness' (is that a word?) with the Force is partly punishment. But the Force decides to give them another chance. It creates the Chosen One and basically leaves it on their doorstep. It's up to the Jedi what to do with it. And the Jedi...failed. Pretty badly. Oh yes, they took Anakin in and they trained him, but only after Obi-Wan and Qui Gon had to fight for it. And then they pretty much screwed it up.

I'm not saying that Anakin wasn't at fault. Oh yes, Anakin definitely played a role in his own turning to the Darkside. But if the Jedi were possibly a little more open and aware of their surroundings, maybe they could have sensed what was happening, with Anakin, Palpatine and the rest of the Republic.

Basically, the way I see it, the Jedi were doing pretty badly. So the Force decides to give them this chance- the Chosen One. It's sort of a test- the way that they deal with the Chosen One is either their punishment or their reward. And unfortunately, they screw it up... and receive the ultimate punishment- they're all wiped out. The Force 'knew' that the Jedi needed a change and Anakin was supposed to be the center of that change. It goes with the entire Living Force idea. Anakin was going to be the Jedi that turned the Jedi Order around and bring it back from the ruins. But the Jedi weren't ready/able/didn't want to deal with basically rewriting the entire Code and so they, er, failed. Miserably. And the only way to finally allow a new start was to, well, start again. From the very beginning,

One thing is for sure, either out of necessity or by design, Obi and Yoda train Luke to listen to the will of the Force more than the Old Jedi trained Anakin. This is something I think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan understood, but Obi was more aligned with Yoda and Mace's view on things than Qui-Gon. He is kind of put in the middle so-to-speak.

Yes. I definitely agree. Poor Obi-Wan doesn't really know what to do. He's this new Knight, has just had his Master die in front of him and now he's stuck with this Chosen One as an apprentice. The rest of the Order don't know what to do with Anakin- how should Obi-Wan. And even though he has these ideals that his own Master taught him, they're fairly taboo. Obi-Wan really wants to get his new job of training Anakin right. So he basically decides that even though he does believe in what his Master taught him, he better be by the book with Anakin. He's new at this- he doesn't want to screw up. I assume that he already had the Council annoyed at him for demanding to train Anakin in the first place. He doesn't really need/want the Counci after him for another reason. So he unfortunately trains Anakin like a normal Jedi would be trained.

Except that Anakin isn't normal. And that those ways won't work with Anakin.

If Obi-Wan had been allowed to train Anakin as he did Luke, to listen to the Force (not the mandates of the Jedi code), would it have been different?

I believe so...yes. Like I mentioned before, Anakin isn't normal. He really needed the different way of being trained- and yet he wasn't allowed to use it on Anakin. Had Obi-Wan trained Anakin like he originally was inclined to, in my opinion, then Anakin probably would have turned out differently.

And of course it was Anakin's own choice to go to the Darks

 

Do you think the Jedi are being punished also?


This brings back memories of a discussion from my n00bie days.

Back then the theory was espoused that the Jedi had become too detached from "real life." Essentially, they lived in their own universe which only occasionally intersected the real universe around them.

The symbology of this was that the Jedi Temple towered high above everything else, including the Senate. Obi-Wan's mention of "pathetic life forms" fits in here as well, as it demostrates a bit of conceit on the part of the Jedi Knights.

This disconnect prevented them from realizing the danger they were in as the events of TPM unfolded as well as understanding who their enemy truly was.

Now whether the Jedi were being 'punished' depends on one's view of destiny. If fate is unalterable, then the Jedi are sorely lacking in their ability to understand their own prophecies in regards to just how the Force is to be balanced.


If Anakin becoming Darth Vader wasn't pre-ordained, then the argument about the Jedi being punished is weakened since none of the events are controlled but are the result of decisions of free will.

 

I agree with you. Thanks a lot for saying the gist of what I wanted to say, but was unable to put into words (and therefore spent most of a post talking in circles about other semi-connected things...)

But yes, that's essentially the way I see it. The Jedi had distanced themselves from the rest of the Galaxy. The Chosen One was their chance to fix their mistakes. It was their test- and they failed.

As for the question of destiny- I don't really there is any 'set destiny' or fate. I believe that there is a destiny, but that it can be altered. The Force is always in motion... The Jedi's destiny wasn't set yet, when the Force 'delievered' the Chosen One to them. It wasn't set after Anakin started training. It wasn't set after he murdered the Tuskens or fought Dooku or the Clone Wars started or Anakin married Padme or after he was Knighted or after really anything. The Force kept on giving the Jedi a chance, in my opinon, to fix their mistakes. They just...never did. Or it was more that they at first didn't believe they were making any and then, after it was too late, after all the Jedi except Obi-Wan and Yoda were dead, did they realize.

Basically, I don't think the question of punishment has anything to do with Anakin's fall being pre-ordained or not. Anakin could have been saved- and the Jedi still could have fallen. It's all sort of up in the air. We could 'what-if' our selves to death, but I think that at the bottom of it, Anakin being the Chosen One was a test for the Jedi, one that could and did turn into a punishment.

 

Good way to put it Herman, and Altheia (especially your second paragraph). There were many chances for both Anakin and the Jedi to turn back from their ways after they set off on their path. At any time they could have stopped and listened to Anakin or Anakin could have stopped and stopped using the Council's distance as an crutch. Unfortunately, it is neither's make up to do that. Both are too stubborn.

It seems that Anakin is portrayed as someone who is incredibly "in touch" with the Force by his sheer genetics and his place in the prophecy. This is where I think the Jedi could have learned a new way to "listen to the Force". I think after the events of ROTS, Yoda and Obi-Wan have some kind of epiphany on the Living Force - namely...LISTEN TO IT. Not give in to Anakin's every wish, but look at what the Force has presented them with in this padawan that will be a challenge, but is what they have been waiting for.

Like Qui-Gon did, they decide to let the Force tell them when to train Luke. They seem to let the Force and Luke work out what to do about Vader. In other words, they train Luke the way they should have trained Anakin. They offered him support and guidance and were there for him, but they let the Force do the telling him what to do. And Luke listens and decides there is still good in his father, and his place is to deny the darkside and redeem his father, not fight him. Now, this isn't to say Yoda and Obi-Wan wouldn't go back and do it different with Anakin, they appear to me to have learned that the Jedi seemed to have stagnated to the point of reaching crisis.

 

I think the real problem here is that it's easy to ask the "what if" question of Anakin rejecting the dark earlier on. It's a bit hard to turn back from something that you know is bad, but feel that you are justified in your actions (speaking from personal experience). Anakin felt he was justified when avenging his mother and in later instances in the EU and Clone Wars series, Anakin felt more comfortable using the Dark Side if it was justified.

The Jedi Order seems to have had serious problems dealing with the Dark Side. It's evident when their most famous practioner of Form II combat, a form of combat they found irrelevant in the modern galaxy, defects to the Sith. But I really don't think the fault truly lies with the Jedi Order.

If anything, Qui-Gon messed up by manipulating things to free Anakin, rather than trusting the Force to work things out. Qui-Gon knew it was dangerous to separate Anakin from his mother at that age, but did it anyway because he was a risk taker. It came back to bite him because of what Shmi's death did to Anakin. I noticed when I saw Attack of the Clones on the big screen, the guy sitting next to me reacted, "I'd be a killing *insert expletive deleted*." Most of us would have done the same thing, but Qui-Gon really didn't know much better, even though his intentions were good. Even if Qui-Gon trained Anakin, I still think he would have fell because Qui-Gon, even though realizing the faults in the Republic and the Jedi Order, didn't find balance between the Unifying Force and the Living Force when he dealt with Anakin.