Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

Just stopping by to say I love your discussion... You're all nailing Vader perfectly and I just love this analogy with the yin and yang. Really fitting.

The idea of a test for the Jedi is something I never thought about. But it makes sense. I don't necessarily believe that the Jedi were completely at fault because let's face it, Anakin's responsible, but it's funny how with all their talks about Anakin being arrogant, only Yoda noticed that they were all getting arrogant... I wonder if Yoda will not be the first to understand how they all failed in ROTS.

 

It seems that Anakin is portrayed as someone who is incredibly "in touch" with the Force by his sheer genetics and his place in the prophecy. This is where I think the Jedi could have learned a new way to "listen to the Force". I think after the events of ROTS, Yoda and Obi-Wan have some kind of epiphany on the Living Force - namely...LISTEN TO IT.

Exactly. I can't say much on the subject, because what I want to point out involves a spoiler. But basically, I agree. Something happens that makes Yoda and Obi-Wan change the way they see things and go 'oh, that's where we screwed up'. And so then they just have to wait until Luke comes along and use him to redeem themselves and the Force.

Yoda telling Luke that he is too old in ESB I think is mainly testing Luke. If Luke goes 'oh, okay, whatever' then obviously he shouldn't be trained. But because Luke wants to be trained so badly and has this desire to really learn, then Yoda decides that he is worthy. And I think part of it is that Yoda likes to torture Luke with things as a joke- like not telling Luke who he is and stuff... But that's not what I mean to go into. Luke is the chance that they've been waiting for. I haven't decided yet if Yoda and Obi-Wan either believe that Luke can take over his father's role as the Chosen One (even though he can't- but Yoda and Obi-Wan don't know that), or if they think that somehow Luke will get to Anakin and bring him back or something. But in any case, they realize that they have to train Luke differently- and they do.

In other words, they train Luke the way they should have trained Anakin.

Right. Think how different things would be if Anakin had been trained like Luke. I think Luke would have handled the old Jedi Padawan method a lot better than Anakin did. Too bad that their roles were reversed...

As for both Yoda and Obi-Wan realizing that the Jedi had become stagnant- I'm not sure if they realize that right away, after Anakin has turned, or if it takes some years. But yes, in any case, I do believe that they realize that eventually. Like I've said before, I don't think that it's a good thing that the Jedi were all slaughtered. But in another way, I think that something dirastic needed to be done. Killing them all probably wasn't the best idea- but it got the job done. It opened the remaining Jedi's eyes to what was going on in the Force and allowed them to learn from it and change their ways. Unfortunately, it was almost too late...

It's a bit hard to turn back from something that you know is bad, but feel that you are justified in your actions (speaking from personal experience).

I agree. I too have personal experience with that topic and it is hard to do. I mean, why would you ever think different? Sure, Anakin murdered the Tuskens. Well, they murdered his mother. Doesn't necessarily make it right that he did that and he knows that that probably wasn't a good thing to do- but they killed his mother. So in his eyes, the end fits the means (if I have that expression right).

The Jedi Order seems to have had serious problems dealing with the Dark Side.

Exactly. In my opinion, the Jedi have distanced themselves too much from the rest of the galaxy. Yes, the Darkside is a bad thing- it's quite obvious about that. And I'm not saying that the Jedi should be abusing their powers or using them for 'personal gain', to take a phrase out of a tv show. But the fact is that this distance they have created has spawned more problems than rewards. First of all, the 'normal' Republic citizens are starting to resent them. All right, part of that involves Palpatine, but really, they are so distanced for the most part that it doesn't really surprise me that most citizens are a bit hesitant about the Jedi. Secondly, they can't ignore the Darkside. I'm not saying that they should go out and use the Darkside, but closing themselves up in a small box is not the answer either. The Jedi need to break out o

 

It's another thing to remember that while Luke seemed completely awestruck by Yoda in ESB (and who woudln't appreciate their X-Wing being removed from the much) by the time of AOTC, Anakin considers himself as already surpassing his fellow Jedi, including his teacher, Obi-Wan.

Anakin had plenty of opportunities to measure his power and skill against other Jedi and could see where he was easily better. Luke was simply a novice being taught by probably one of the greatest Jedi Masters in Yoda. (Remember Obi-Wan's comment in TPM that "even Yoda" didn't have the midichlorian count that Anakin did.)


Another aspect of Anakin's difference from the old Jedi was that he wasn't found at birth. He grew up in the harsh real world and therefore no doubt had a very different perspective. He had first hand knowledge of the evils in the galaxy rather than the detached view of someone who grew up in the Jedi Temple.

 

I agree with you. Pretty much everything you've said. In earlier posts a page or two back, I've made a real point about how Anakin's exposure to the outside world is a big factor in his personality and the fact that Jedi aren't really prepared to handle him.

And Luke hasn't had any experience with the Jedi before. It's been over two years since I've last seen any of the OT, so my memory is probably lacking a bit. But I do remember that scene more now that you've mentioned it and yes, Luke really is in awe. Luke knows nothing of the Jedi except for what Obi-Wan has taught him (which wasn't much) and maybe some folk tales or so. But other than that, he knows nothing. Like Anakin, when he first learns of the Force, he's in awe of it.

But Anakin, for one thing, was more exposed to it in the beginning- he had heard of Jedi before and he wanted to be one- plus he got to witness more of what being a Jedi was like, because he had Qui Gon and Obi-Wan, as well as eventually the entire Jedi Council to watch and learn from. Then he was accepted into training and part of me wonders what Luke would be like, had he trained ike Anakin did, with the entire Order around him. Anakin, like you said, was well aware of what the Jedi could do and the fact that he could do it all- and usually better.

 

Just popping in because I was so excited when I found this, that I had to share it.

A while ago, Hayden was in Premiere magazine, looking a bit Dark Side. That used to be an icon, now it's gone, but anyway. There's now a ROTS icon that looks familiar.

SPOILER PIC It's one of the icons, and I linked to it, just to be safe (sorry it's so tiny).

ROTS icon

[image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v23/JadeSolo/Anakin/HaydenPremiere.jpg]

I guess Hayden was channeling some ROTS Anakin early on. Or the photographer told him to make that face.

 

Hey, I was asked to post this here.

Anakin's character I'd like to state is difficult to narrow down. The best books acknowledge that Anakin's problem is that he runs hot or freezing and no temperature inbetween. He's shy, awkward, and vulnerable when he's cold. Unable to talk to girls and eagerly seeking approval like a wounded puppy from his master or the woman that is merely the first (and latest) in a series of crushes that Obi Wan Kenobi alludes to. Anakin is a huge mama's boy and needs female attention almost as much as he requires his father figure in Qui Gon or Obi Wan or Palpatine....hell even Watto. An arguement could be made that he responds to Tarkin like he does in ANH because Tarkin treats Anakin with a father's patriarchy as well as respect.

When Anakin is hot, Anakin is full of bravado and convinced he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's an incredible Type A personality that is driven by a need to excell. Pod racing, "the Chosen One" crazzap, The Greatest Jedi of all time, then eventually becoming the Supreme Executor and "True" Dark Lord of the Sith. He's also bustling with energy that hes built up from the repressing of his feelings that he does in order to get the respect he does get. I know plenty of people who positively freak out(myself included) when not doing something and they have an idea. This can easily be focused to rage and anger.

Anakin hasn't changed much from the little boy in The Phantom Menace because the boy is very well adapted for the world of causal killing that is Tatooine, something that the Jedi probably never addressed because it never occurred to them that by nine a boy could hold life as cheap as one who has lived in the Pod Racing circuit on a planet ruled by the Hutts. He's controlling in the table or alternatively submissive. With no role models, Anakin never adapts to a more socially acceptable viewpoint since his only model is total serenity and that comes to Anakin as 'total repression' then venting

Forming an ever vicious cycle until Palpatine provides him with the third option of repressing your rage into power and releasing it in a manner that terrifies others. Even as Vader, he merely appeared calm and collected and still had his 'fits'....only they were aimed at those underneath him.

 

I went out and bought the DVDs of episodes I and II today (they were officially released for general consumption March 22--time to brush up on the story as it currently stands!), and I noticed something. Watto does the same finger-point-and-shake that Anakin/Vader does. Just thought I'd point that out to you.... <--the closest smiley that comes to doing the point-and-shake

 

Okay, I got the children's novel in the mail early....and boy are we going to have things to discuss... Especially if we read the novelization.

Anakin's character has become so much more conflicted, but mature...George has outdone himself this time. When it comes to this character, he is throwing out the "Anakin rulebook". And I couldn't be happier.

Interesting perspective, Charlemange. I think because of Anakin's postion "in the force" so to speak. He kind of encompasses every emotion a sentient is supposed to feel... X ten.

Here's something interesting from the audio novel that isn't spoilerish as it's Anakin musing on himself as a boy:

He is feeling something through the Force and remembers how as a boy he got these feelings and just responded to them, without thought. Because he didn't know what they were, he thought they were his instincts (kind of like Luke in the OT ). He didn't "use" the Force, the Force "used" him. He thinks how now he can see and "use" the Force due to his Jedi training.

A thought: What if in the Force's "vision" Qui-Gon was supposed to be denied to train Anakin by the (flawed) Jedi council, just as it happened in TPM? What if he was then supposed to return to Tatooine to train him as he sees fit while leaving him with his mother? He listens to the Force (as is Qui-Gon's nature) and let's Anakin "listen" to the Force, together they would return to train/help the Jedi see the true nature of the Force. Only Darth Maul got there first...

 

Okay, I got the children's novel in the mail early....and boy are we going to have things to discuss... Especially if we read the novelization.


Sounds good- but can we do that? I mean, discuss the novel here? Because I thought the novel was going to be considered a spoiler and spoilers aren't allowed in this forum- but if we can, then great! Can't wait...

And I'll reply to the last couple of posts later. My computer's being a pain, shutting down Notepad (which is what I type responses in) every time I try to save/copy the text and I'm too tired to do it now anyway.

 

Oh! There's a fanfic like that, kinda. The Naboo Chronicles is an AU where the Jedi Council won't train Anakin...and Qui-Gon still dies! So Obi-Wan takes it upon himself to train the boy anyway....

 

I don't believe you can discuss a spoiler-filled book here, not without tons of spoiler warning headers and such. But you should ask a mod before doing anything. I wonder if the Lit section has a spoiler thread for the ROTS book in it?

 

I think diane's right about the spoilers. Here's a link to the Spoiler thread for the novelization of ROTS, in Lit.

http://boards.theforce.net/Literature/b10003/18700095/?83

 

Actually, I meant when the movie comes out we'll have a lot to discuss based on the novels interpretation of him.

The part I posted about Anakin thinking about the Force isn't considered spoiler material, I would hope.

I'm pretty sure we can discuss the novelization in here after the movie, but before there's convo going on in Lit. surrounding a bunch of things, just don't expect anything to be in depth. I haven't read the whole Stover novelization, but I have the children's. Let's face it, it's not that long. But it is good.

 

Discussing the recent Clone Wars episodes isn't like a spoiler, is it? I know some folks think volume II was rather spoilerish, but I didn't think so. It's like Labyrinth of Evil, it just sets things up.

rhonderoo wrote:
Anakin's character has become so much more conflicted, but mature...George has outdone himself this time. When it comes to this character, he is throwing out the "Anakin rulebook". And I couldn't be happier.

The Obi-Wan workshop recently did a "how do you see Obi-Wan" discussion with a Q&A thing. With this idea of an "Anakin rulebook," I'm curious how everybody sees Anakin, exactly.

I know the upcoming movie will change people's perceptions of Anakin/Vader. I totally changed my perspective as soon as I read the novelisation of RotJ before that movie came out (hope to do the same for this one! ). As soon as Anakin died in Luke's arms, I understood the whole story was about Anakin, and always had been. I never thought of Vader as evil again, but a broken man who fell prey to his inner demons.

With the last two movies, I've also gotten the impression that Anakin is divided about his abilities. On one hand, he wants to be invincible, all-powerful. This was the ideal he thought Jedi were when he was a boy. But with a taste of real power, I think he's afraid of what he could become.

From one of my many plot bunnies that keep derailing me from finishing the things I'm currently working on:

Anakin, as a Jedi, had never achieved a full meditative state, yet no one ever knew it. But he did. It was one thing he never told anyone. Not Master Yoda. Not even his closest friend and teacher, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Over the years as a Padawan, Anakin had pushed the bubble of the meditative state he was supposed to achieve, but he constantly held himself back. Just on the other side of that bubble he held firmly in place was the tantalizing taste of richer things, of power beyond belief.

Master Yoda was right, had always been right. It was fear that held Anakin back, lead him astray, molded him into what he became in the end. It was not fear of what was without, but what was within.

That power he felt, just at the edge of his sanity, was his own. And it terrified him.

I definitely got that vibe again in the book Rogue Planet (which sets up the Yuuzhan Vong series of the EU). Anakin's pleading with the book's bad guy 'cause he doesn't want to use his power against him. He's afraid of it.

 

I was shadowing Alethia and found myself here. I really should pop into this thread more often. Fantastic discussions are going on here. Well done, rhonderoo.

Anakin, as a Jedi, had never achieved a full meditative state, yet no one ever knew it. But he did. It was one thing he never told anyone. Not Master Yoda. Not even his closest friend and teacher, Obi-Wan Kenobi. Over the years as a Padawan, Anakin had pushed the bubble of the meditative state he was supposed to achieve, but he constantly held himself back. Just on the other side of that bubble he held firmly in place was the tantalizing taste of richer things, of power beyond belief.

If there's one thing that is consistent about fandom, it's how Anakin hates meditation. Does anyone know if this is really a canon fact? Or just something that fandom and the EU have been running with? It sounds very much in character for Anakin, though.

 

If there's one thing that is consistent about fandom, it's how Anakin hates meditation. Does anyone know if this is really a canon fact? Or just something that fandom and the EU have been running with? It sounds very much in character for Anakin, though.

I think it's pretty much canon, even though you see both Anakin and Darth Vader meditating at different points in the saga. I don't think he hates it, per se, but I do think he has trouble with it. In both the movies and EU, he is portrayed as being so close to the Force that he feels and sees things more clearly and powerful than other Jedi. This isn't a blessing. It leads to his dreams about those he loves, it leads to his sometimes highly charged emotional state, and it leads to his bones of contention with the Council. To Anakin (and many of the writers that have penned him), because of who he is, when he feels, it is the Force directing him or making a supertuned antennae out of him. I've always went back to the fact that he never sleeps, he can't. I think we see him meditating basically as a way to refresh himself. He's too antsy to be still for too long.

 

I think it's pretty much canon, even though you see both Anakin and Darth Vader meditating at different points in the saga.

Okay. Just checking.

 

To quote Rogue Planet

= = = = = =

?Where do you go when you meditate?? Anakin asked.

Obi-Wan smiled at the boy?s chatter. ?To a state of mind and body where I reacquaint myself with simplicity.?

Anakin wrinkled his nose. ?I don?t meditate very often.?

?I?ve noticed.?

?I get to a certain point and I just overload. It?s like I?m plugging into a supernova. Something goes blooey in me. I don?t like it.?

= = = = = =

Thought. When Anakin is crippled and his connection to the force diminished I wonder if his ability to meditate might actually be enhanced as he would not be being so overloaded. He would not have access to the same raw power but he would be able to control it better in meditation and perhaps more subtly.
(like using a normal torch to see things rather than a searchlight which would wash out the details and dazzle the eye)

 

Thought. When Anakin is crippled and his connection to the force diminished I wonder if his ability to meditate might actually be enhanced as he would not be being so overloaded. He would not have access to the same raw power but he would be able to control it better in meditation and perhaps more subtly.
(like using a normal torch to see things rather than a searchlight which would wash out the details and dazzle the eye)

Good point. We do see Darth Vader do it more. In fact, it seems that he does seem more comfortable with the "Force" in general after he dons the suit.

 

I think Vader is much more comfortable with meditating than Anakin. It has been mentioned before, but Vader finally learned a lot of the lessons that the Jedi wanted Anakin to learn. Be careful what you wish for...

 

Finally, time to reply!

Anakin's character I'd like to state is difficult to narrow down.

*eyes the eight pages of this thread* Yeah...I'd say that...

The best books acknowledge that Anakin's problem is that he runs hot or freezing and no temperature inbetween. He's shy, awkward, and vulnerable when he's cold. Unable to talk to girls and eagerly seeking approval like a wounded puppy from his master or the woman that is merely the first (and latest) in a series of crushes that Obi Wan Kenobi alludes to. Anakin is a huge mama's boy and needs female attention almost as much as he requires his father figure in Qui Gon or Obi Wan or Palpatine....hell even Watto. An arguement could be made that he responds to Tarkin like he does in ANH because Tarkin treats Anakin with a father's patriarchy as well as respect.


Basically agree with you. I'm not really sure about possibly seeing Watto as a father-figure, though. And I don't really agree about Tarkin. I think that Tarkin is more condescending than anything else. I get these vibes that Tarkin really doesn't like Vader, but since Vader is (unfortunately) above him in status at the moment, that he has to 'play nice', so to speak- which is where you get these 'respectful' tones from.


When Anakin is hot, Anakin is full of bravado and convinced he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's an incredible Type A personality that is driven by a need to excell. Pod racing, "the Chosen One" crazzap, The Greatest Jedi of all time, then eventually becoming the Supreme Executor and "True" Dark Lord of the Sith. He's also bustling with energy that hes built up from the repressing of his feelings that he does in order to get the respect he does get.

This would be why meditation would be so important for him- it would help him calm down and mellow out. However, he seems to have a problem with it...which leads to these charged feelings. But I'll get more into the meditation aspect later...

I know plenty of people who positively freak out(myself included) when not doing something and they have an idea. This can easily be focused to rage and anger.


Myself included. I have to be doing something, be it even twiddling my thumbs. Otherwise I start to kind of freak and get rowdy- and I don't have the Force...

Anakin hasn't changed much from the little boy in The Phantom Menace because the boy is very well adapted for the world of causal killing that is Tatooine, something that the Jedi probably never addressed because it never occurred to them that by nine a boy could hold life as cheap as one who has lived in the Pod Racing circuit on a planet ruled by the Hutts.

I never really thought of that... but you're right. The Jedi see life as something very important and something that needs the utmost protection. Yet Anakin is raised on this world where life basically means nothing. It's basically 'me or you' and who's going to pick 'me' to get hurt/killed/cheated, etc. But the Jedi would pick 'me- and that's Anakin's problem. He comes off as selfish- but it was the only way to survive. Heck, I have that myself in a slightly different capacity.

He's controlling in the table or alternatively submissive. With no role models, Anakin never adapts to a more socially acceptable viewpoint since his only model is total serenity and that comes to Anakin as 'total repression' then venting


There's also the added help of our dear Chancellor, who feeds on this submissive nature of his and uses it to play him like a finely tuned instrument- which he is in fact reduced to, you could say, after he puts on the suit. .

Forming an ever vicious cycle until Palpatine provides him with the third option of repressing your rage into power and releasing it in a manner that terrifies others.

And here is what I was sort of eluing to above...

. Even as Vader, he merely appeared calm and collected and still had his 'fits'....only they were aimed at those underneath him.

Well, it's

 

In certain ways, part of the complexity of the Vader/Anakin (I cannot write that anymore- that type of naming is reserved for Tok'Ra!)character might stem from the unfathomable depthes of his battered mind. He's had to deal with death for a long time (Qui-gon, Shmi, the Tuskens, the Clone War victim) that Vader almost seems to have a mental callous. He's built up a barrier around the "morals" part of his mind so that when he does kill, it doesn't hurt him anymore. This, along with general, uncontrolled anger at the universe as a whole, is my definition of the "Vader" side. Anakin could not deal with the anger, pain, and loss, so he retreated, and the Vader persona took over. Basically, he almost has a multiple personality disorder brought on by traumas throughout his young life.
Some parts in the OT novelizations hint at Vader not really, or refusing to, remembering his previous life as Anakin Skywalker. I'd call this a self-induced amnesia (is this possible?) to protect himself. Interactions with Luke broke through part of those barriers, helping to release Anakin from his mental prison.
At the end of RotJ, Vader's body language conveyed a definate sense of conflict- does he help his Master (his "friend"), or does he save his son (his own flesh and blood)? Vader is likely for helping Palpatine and ignoring Luke's execution, but Anakin basically stood up and said "No more. You will not take him." Then Palpatine gets a flying lesson and we all know what happens later.

Theoretically, the whole "Vader-Dark-Lord-of-the-Sith" personality arising could have been prevented by several trips to a shrink's office--- one with a large number of ysalamiri on hand.

Interseting note- MPD patients show differant characteristics for the differant personas-differant dominant hand, education lever, vocabulary, likes/dislikes, and/or eye color. If Vader didn't have to wear a mask, his eyes would probably be Sith-yellow, as opposed to Anakin's blue.

I apologize if I hurt anyone's brain- I'm not really a psychologist! I just read, and my friend is a Vader/Anakin expert.

 

Theoretically, the whole "Vader-Dark-Lord-of-the-Sith" personality arising could have been prevented by several trips to a shrink's office--- one with a large number of ysalamiri on hand.

I see a huge humourous plot bunny hopping right out of that one!

DOCTOR: This is what we term Dissociative Identity Disorder, or DID, in what used to be called Multiple Personality Disorder, or MPD. It is typically caused by Posttraumatic Stress Disorder, or PTSD.
DOCTOR is suddenly unable to speak, clasping at his throat as he makes choking sounds.
VADER: I find your need to label and create acronyms for everything disturbing.
DOCTOR reaches in a nutrient solution for a furry salamander thing and plops it on his head.
DOCTOR: Catches his breath, then continues. As I was explaining....

Let's see...symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder are: depression, mood swings, suicidal tendencies, sleep disorders, panic attacks and phobias, alcohol and drug abuse, compulsions and rituals, auditory and visual hallucinations, and eating disorders; may also experience headaches, amnesias, time loss, trances, and "out of body experiences." They have a tendency toward self-persecution, self-sabotage, and violence.

Sounds like a point, there.

 

... my friend is a Vader/Anakin expert.

Curious, I am. What is a "Vader/Anakin expert"?