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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Characters Anakin/Vader Characterization - Anakin in the New Clone Wars

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by rhonderoo, Sep 10, 2004.

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  1. VaderLVR64

    VaderLVR64 Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2004
    I consider myself an Anakin/Vader student...

    I don't know if anyone short of the the flanneled one himself could be an expert. Though I guess it's possible.

    Hmmm... Do you think a degree in Vaderology would get me a job? :p

     
  2. Alethia

    Alethia Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2005

    Hmmm... Do you think a degree in Vaderology would get me a job?


    If it does, tell me, because I would even give up my plan of going to Med School to get a degree/job in that.

    Let's see...symptoms of Dissociative Identity Disorder are: depression, mood swings, suicidal tendencies, sleep disorders, panic attacks and phobias, alcohol and drug abuse, compulsions and rituals, auditory and visual hallucinations, and eating disorders; may also experience headaches, amnesias, time loss, trances, and "out of body experiences." They have a tendency toward self-persecution, self-sabotage, and violence.

    I've always figured that Vader/Anakin had some kind of MPD. Guess they changed the name on me... It also wouldn't surprise me if he had PTSD or was maniac-depressive (bipolar) as well...


    I'd call this a self-induced amnesia (is this possible?) to protect himself.

    And fairly common, actually, in victims of abuse, rape and other things like that, which people want to block out of their minds. It's also really common in little kids, when bad things happen. I had that myself- there a few memories of mine missing because of what I went through as a young child.



    Interseting note- MPD patients show differant characteristics for the differant personas-differant dominant hand, education lever, vocabulary, likes/dislikes, and/or eye color. If Vader didn't have to wear a mask, his eyes would probably be Sith-yellow, as opposed to Anakin's blue.


    That's definitely true... only at the end of ROTJ do we see Vader's eyes for the first time- and they are blue. But he's already become Anakin by then, so...


    Theoretically, the whole "Vader-Dark-Lord-of-the-Sith" personality arising could have been prevented by several trips to a shrink's office--- one with a large number of ysalamiri on hand.


    Thanks you you and agentj, I can't get that scene out of my head. Thanks. A lot.

    What is a "Vader/Anakin expert"?

    I'm wondering that myself...

    And I don't really think it's possible. I think we here can all be considered students/professors, but none of us can be experts- unless we're GL himself or someone in close confidence with him. And I'm not- though I don't know about the rest of you...
     
  3. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2002
    VaderLVR64 posted on 3/29/05 8:18am
    I consider myself an Anakin/Vader student...

    I don't know if anyone short of the the flanneled one himself could be an expert. Though I guess it's possible.

    Hmmm... Do you think a degree in Vaderology would get me a job? [face_tongue]


    [hr][/blockquote]

    I could deal with that sort of schoolwork! [face_laugh]

    Darth Vader hates Anakin Skywalker, that's what I've always got out of his story, first and foremost. It will interesting to see how this comes about in ROTS.

    The trauma that he suffers is enough to send anyone into some kind of mental retreat, I believe. And there could be an interGFFA explanation for it. I keep going back to the fact that head trauma changes ones personality sometimes in real-life. And also makes them have a violent streak. Hmmm. [face_thinking]
     
  4. Alethia

    Alethia Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2005

    Darth Vader hates Anakin Skywalker, that's what I've always got out of his story, first and foremost. It will interesting to see how this comes about in ROTS.


    Bites tongue. *muttering* I will not speculate with spoilers...

    But without spoilers, I can still say something. Even in the OT, I got the impression that Vader hated Anakin Skywalker, because Anakin was everything that Vader isn't. Vader is powerful, sure, but he was a heck of a lot more powerful as Anakin. Anakin had the girl, the child, the friends, the life. Vader, in comparison, has nothing. He's really not much more than a hollowed out shell. So no wonder he hates Anakin...

    I keep going back to the fact that head trauma changes ones personality sometimes in real-life. And also makes them have a violent streak.

    Very interesting point...
     
  5. _JM_

    _JM_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    In the one trailer Anakin did have Sith Yellow eyes, which would suggest the theory is accurate about eye colour changes and therefore that Darth Vader was not born in the fire, that Anakin had already become Sith before he became crippled. :)

    Not as clear in other scenes though.
     
  6. Alethia

    Alethia Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2005

    In the one trailer Anakin did have Sith Yellow eyes, which would suggest the theory is accurate about eye colour changes and therefore that Darth Vader was not born in the fire, that Anakin had already become Sith before he became crippled.


    Right...Anakin accepts Sidious's tutelage and becomes his apprentice after he cuts of Mace's hand and Sidious throws him through the window. Sidious then besstows the name of Vader on him and Vader goes to the Jedi Temple as his first mission, destroying it. So yep, Vader exists, long before the suit

    During the duel, Anakin seems to have already turned, so that seems to signify that he is, indeed, already Lord Vader of the Sith. If he hadn't alredy turned, I don't think he'd be duelling Obi-Wan...
     
  7. _JM_

    _JM_ Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2001
    That seems fair, I?d wondered if Anakin could have fallen to the Dark Side but not become true Sith until after he suffered the extra trauma of swimming in lava and lost all connection to his earlier life.
    Anakin doing terrible things for what he thinks are the right reasons, and then realising he had become Dark and in his despair letting the final glimmer of light submerge beneath the darkness (where it waited to be reawoken by the compassion of his son) as he accepted his fate as a Sith.
     
  8. VaderLVR64

    VaderLVR64 Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 5, 2004
    Having dealt with a family member with a brain injury, I can tell you that their whole personality changes. It is sad and amazing how different they become. If that is what happened, and I don't know yet because I DON'T HAVE MY BOOK (a little whining) then I can understand how different these two men would be.
     
  9. Exxaciel

    Exxaciel Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Alrighty, my Vader/Anakin expert friend (as far as I'm concerned) knows the most about the character out of our writing group. She writes him. She researches him. She can practically gets in his head (a vary scary place I might add). She knows more about Vader/Anakin than anyone I know, to the extent that the journal she keeps for him is pretty darn accurate. Perhaps the title isn't the best I could've chosen, but I'm glad my post spurred discussion.

    That's what I'm here for.

    Vader/Anakin would also suffer from an antisocial disorder. I don't remember the name, but it's characterized by purposely commiting violent acts of cruelty with out feeling any remorse whatsoever. I think he fits the description.

    One source I've read has Vader describing his killing of failed officers as maintaining a machine: In mechanics, "if it's broken, you either fix it, or discard it. It's the same with people. Besides, I enjoy discarding them."

    Just a little creepy, and very ASD.
     
  10. Alethia

    Alethia Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 13, 2005

    Vader/Anakin would also suffer from an antisocial disorder. I don't remember the name, but it's characterized by purposely commiting violent acts of cruelty with out feeling any remorse whatsoever. I think he fits the description.

    One source I've read has Vader describing his killing of failed officers as maintaining a machine: In mechanics, "if it's broken, you either fix it, or discard it. It's the same with people. Besides, I enjoy discarding them."



    Thinking about it, Vader probably suffers from tons of different disorders. And ASD would fit as well. That quote is so chilling, but I can definitely see him thinking that way.

    Interesting...
     
  11. geo3

    geo3 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2002
    Alrighty, my Vader/Anakin expert friend (as far as I'm concerned) knows the most about the character out of our writing group. She writes him. She researches him. She can practically gets in his head (a vary scary place I might add). She knows more about Vader/Anakin than anyone I know, to the extent that the journal she keeps for him is pretty darn accurate. Perhaps the title isn't the best I could've chosen, but I'm glad my post spurred discussion.

    OK! That?s what I wanted to know. By that criterion, I?ve got a stack of honorary Ph.D?s here for the many, many fabulous fanfic authors and essayists who, over the years, have demonstrated the visionary and imaginative expertise to persuasively enter the mind and soul of that fictional character... :p

    We can start handing out bunches of them right here on this thread =D=

    Seriously, isn't that the mark of a truly great character? That he can be known and understood by so many?
     
  12. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    A freind showed me this thread and convinced me that I should post the reply I showed her that I would have made so for the first time in over a week, I'm venturing back into this forum.

    Alrighty, my Vader/Anakin expert friend (as far as I'm concerned) knows the most about the character out of our writing group. She writes him. She researches him. She can practically gets in his head (a vary scary place I might add).


    Well, I like to think that many people in this thread (and elsewhere) are quite adept at 'getting into Vader's head' so to speak, but like the blind men and the elephant, we are all going to find different things. It took a combination of George Lucas and 5 actors to bring the film version to life after all.



    Vader/Anakin would also suffer from an antisocial disorder. I don't remember the name, but it's characterized by purposely commiting violent acts of cruelty with out feeling any remorse whatsoever. I think he fits the description.

    That's a rather broad and over simplification of ASDs, also, this seems to be fixating on the VADER aspect of the character, especially discounting all we've seen in the prequals.

    This is a boy who thought nothing of giving to strangers.

    A young man desperate to please, and desperately in love.

    Wait! I hear you cry! That's not DARTH VADER

    Correction, that's not YOUR Darth Vader. But it's Darth Vader, never the less.

    One source I've read has Vader describing his killing of failed officers as maintaining a machine: In mechanics, "if it's broken, you either fix it, or discard it. It's the same with people. Besides, I enjoy discarding them."


    Again, now we have a 7th Darth Vader interpretation. Perhaps not necessarily the right one.

    It's presumptuous to assume that one sole person has the definative take on Vader/Anakin. If that were the case, we should all turn off our computers and go home.
     
  13. Ace_Venom

    Ace_Venom Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Well, the whole thing about choking failed officers can have greater psychological implications. Darth Vader wears a breathing mask because he can't breathe on his own. I remember seeing something that described what injury caused him to require assisted breathing. But I digress.

    The man afflicts failed officers with his injury: not being able to breathe without assistance. The only way they can breathe is if Vader allows them to breathe. If Vader doesn't allow it, they die.
     
  14. TKeira_Lea

    TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2002
    Attributing Anakin?s character flaws to any number of clinical disorders, IMHO, does a disservice to the wonderful story George Lucas has crafted over the course of five movies. While it is typical these days to assign blame to a chemical imbalance for a felon?s crimes or use the insanity defense to acquit a murderer, that method of shifting blame wasn?t even heard of when most of the great tales of fallen heroes were written. And George mastered the Star Wars epic after those tales. Such arguments deny Anakin the right of free will and instead say that he has a clinical problem or disorder that aided in his fall. Personally I don?t think George sat down and said Anakin has this, this and this disorder.

    This is simply a story about a man and his decisions ? right or wrong. Nothing attributed to Anakin?s fall except his own choices and the only way he is saved in the end is to accept that fact, and ultimately seek forgiveness. This is not to say that outside forces like Palpatine?s manipulation and the actions of the Jedi in regard to Anakin didn?t affect his mindset, but ultimately the blame begins and ends with Anakin alone.

    edit: Too, I noticed some discussion about Vader hating Anakin. I can't buy into that mindset either. Anakin is Vader, and Vader is Anakin. They aren't separable or different entities. I believe that George will show that to us too in this movie. Even the teaser trailer suggests that by the depiction of Anakin's eyes. For too long people have seen Anakin as Hayden and Vader as the black suit. Anakin is the man in the black suit.

    ~TKeira
     
  15. geo3

    geo3 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2002
    Well, the whole thing about choking failed officers can have greater psychological implications... The man afflicts failed officers with his injury: not being able to breathe without assistance. The only way they can breathe is if Vader allows them to breathe. If Vader doesn't allow it, they die.

    There might be a lot of other interpretations to pursue here as well. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but I remember being told that in the Hebrew language of the Bible the words for "breath" and "spirit" are the same. I think that might have been true of the ancient Greek as well. There are quite a few New Age-type philosophers around who connect breath and breathing difficulties with inner attitudes about acceptance, atonement and forgiveness. It might be quite intresting to actually do the research into these various ideas...
     
  16. Darth_Lex

    Darth_Lex Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2002
    It?s a bit surreal to discuss this character right now, with some of us spoiled and some not, and a free and full discussion of the implications of ROTS a couple of months away (when the spoiler limitations are lifted). Nevertheless, I wanted to add a few more thoughts. ;)

    I think it deeply misinterprets George?s saga to think of Vader (or even young Anakin, for that matter) in terms of psychological disorders. George has crafted an epic, mythological, spiritual journey for his tragic hero. This isn?t Life As A House or Shattered Glass; it?s not Garden State or Closer. This is the tale of how the man who could have been the greatest Jedi ever instead became the most feared villain in the galaxy, and how the love of his life saw the truth too late to save the Republic and the man she valued above all else. This is Othello or ?

    Anakin is Lucifer. The fallen angel. He chooses to become evil and chooses to remain evil. And, ultimately, chooses to return to the light.

    If Vader doesn?t appear to display remorse or compassion or conscience, it?s because he chooses to deny those feelings in himself. Sidious is the one who doesn?t feel those things; his is the truly dark, lightless soul. Vader chooses to become a monster, a heartless machine ? but all along he is only denying his true self. It takes Luke?s love to break through the lies Vader is telling himself.

    And again, as I posted here a few weeks ago, I continue to believe that Anakin and Vader are very much the same character, the same man. As a boy, he selflessly risks his life to help his new friends and knows nothing of greed, yet the deep attachments that will ultimately be his undoing are already apparent. As a young man, he repeatedly sets selfless duty aside for his selfish needs to protect Shmi, Obi-Wan, and Padmé. We don?t need any ROTS-specific spoilers to know that as a war-ravaged Jedi Knight, he betrays all his loyalties, including his wife, to the point that he fights with all his skill to slay his father figure ? and in committing those betrayals loses all that he ever valued and loved. After that, self-hatred consumes him, and the choice to remain a merciless Sith is the only one that gives his existence any meaning?

    As TKeira so eloquently said, For too long people have seen Anakin as Hayden and Vader as the black suit. Anakin is the man in the black suit. I?ll be the first to admit that for a long time, even after AOTC, I continued to see that dichotomy in the character; Anakin the man, Vader the machine. But after writing Anakin so much, and absorbing all the Clone Wars EU and so many fanfics, I see why George has made the brilliant decision to smash that dichotomy to pieces ? as the teaser trailer and full trailer images already reveal. It?s not Ani to Dark Anakin to Vader ? because Dark Anakin is Vader.
     
  17. geo3

    geo3 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2002
    Thank you for reminding us of the ultimate unity of Anakin/Vader TKL, and Lex, thanks for the reminder of the grand mythological scope of this story. To reduce it to purely scientific/materialistic terms does it a disservice. Let's not forget to think symbolically as well...

    As a reminder, here is an image that speaks volumes about the "fallen angel" motif:

    [image=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/DarthBreezy/ostarwarsepisode3adv.jpg]

     
  18. TKeira_Lea

    TKeira_Lea Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 10, 2002
    Geo: Yes imagery! How about the great screenshots of the Vader (Vader as in the suit) shadow falling off Anakin used in both TPM and AOTC? Wasn't George saying with those images that the makings of Vader were already there?
     
  19. Ace_Venom

    Ace_Venom Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 22, 2002
    Anakin is the man in the black suit.

    I've always based my interpretation of Darth Vader on Obi-Wan's dialogue in ROTJ:

    "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, he betrayed everything and everyone that he had ever believed in. The good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view."

    A lot of that could come from Obi-Wan's shock over losing his best friend. He explicitly talked about Anakin and Vader separately up until ROTJ. Of course, Yoda said that Vader was Luke's father. But when Luke first mentioned his father to Yoda in ESB, Yoda talked of Anakin in the past tense.

    I don't believe that Anakin became the man in the black suit until he overcame the Dark Side of the Force. Anakin's fall produced Darth Vader and vice versa.
     
  20. geo3

    geo3 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 29, 2002
    "Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, he betrayed everything and everyone that he had ever believed in. The good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a certain point of view."

    Yes! I believed exactly the same thing - until the end of ROTJ. Suddenly the "good man" was back, even before he moved on to another plane of existence in the Force.

    I also remember hearing something the Dark Side of the Force forever dominating one's destiny. Luke heard that, too,but he didn't seem to give that "rule" much credence. Instead, he thought and felt his way through all his conflicts quite independently.

    And look what happened.


     
  21. JadeSolo

    JadeSolo Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    I attribute Obi-Wan words to a couple of things. One, he didn't want to scare and shock Luke from the very beginning. He needed time to teach Luke the basic ways of the Force, without the poor kid scarred by the fact that his father is Evil Man #2 in the galaxy. Also, I've always thought Obi-Wan was also saying that to himself, because it would make it easier on him to believe that Anakin and Vader were two separate people. Easier to deal with the idea that Vader is not his apprentice.

    I love Shmi's line in TPM of how Anakin knows no greed. In one sense, that certainly changes, as Lex pointed out. And yet some of that still stands true, because he was trying to save the people he loved. As Lucas says, Anakin made a deal with the devil. Though I suppose you could say that Anakin didn't understand the ramifications of making such a deal, so it wasn't all that selfless.

    I do think that Anakin and Vader are very much the same person. In the ROTS trailer, you see Anakin asking questions about the Dark Side, but not the way Luke did in ESB. Instead of asking which one's more powerful, or how to fight it, Anakin's flat out asking how one learns more about it. You see it in his eyes, Sith-colored or not, that he was a little big dangerous all along. That's why I hated the fact that the fight scene with Greedo in TPM got cut. It adds so much. :D

    Also, because I see Anakin and Vader as the same person, I don't see either one as purely good or purely evil. The man, whether he's wearing leather tabards or black armor, chooses to acknowledge certain sides to him while pushing the others deep down.

    edit: "Forever will it dominate your destiny." I agree! And I usually don't agree with Yoda. :p I don't think Luke was ever quite the same after touching the Dark Side in ROTJ. He knows what it feels like, he might even fear it now. Maybe it doesn't necessarily control him, but I do think it's something he thinks about a lot.

    And I use that to explain his (in)action during parts of the NJO. :p
     
  22. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2002
    Well, I should probably clarify myself on the Vader hating Anakin thing. When I write him as hating Anakin it's metphoric, not literal. ;) George is big on symbolism and symbolically Vader does hate everything Anakin stood for.

    "That name no longer has any meaning for me." - Darth Vader, ROTJ

    It's one of the many complex things about him. He's really messed up in his head. That's pretty evident. I also don't believe anyone was being literal in their scientific interpretation of Vader's injuries, heck there's a whole essay devoted to them (including head trauma) in the Technologies section of TFN. Ask Jedi Trace, she had to use it to study for her fic. :p It's just musing and what ifs. I don't think anyone is trying to absolve Anakin of his wrongs or make excuses for him. I certainly don't, heck that's what makes him the man in black we all love to write. The words "Anakin dies" symbolically will probably come to mean more to us in the coming months, I would think.

    When I write him, I do tend to use the hatred he has for himself (i.e. Anakin Skywalker) as part of his motivation. (Again, we are talking about "Vader" symbolically hating "Anakin Skywalker" aka "himself"- they are the same man. ;))

    I first saw it in profic and it was pretty powerful. In fact it was really powerful. It was a total fanboyish AU comic of Vader vs. a reincarnated Maul and when Vader beats him, Maul asks "What could you possibly hate enough to beat me?" Vader responds: "Myself" and walks off. That's pretty much him, IMO, no excuses, no beating around the bush. He's conflicted and he's po'd and he ain't apologizing. That's "Vader" for you. The Vader that is also Anakin, who is the same person. ;) To say that Anakin and Vader are two different people (although I didn't really see anyone say that in a literal sense) is saying that he wasn't responsible for the awesome thing that he did at the end of ROTJ. What's that you say? "Vader" didn't throw Palaptine down the shaft, "Anakin" did? ;):p Touché.

    Also, because I see Anakin and Vader as the same person, I don't see either one as purely good or purely evil. The man, whether he's wearing leather tabards or black armor, chooses to acknowledge certain sides to him while pushing the others deep down.

    Exactly, JadeSolo. Couldn't have said it better myself.

    And Breezy... This is a boy who thought nothing of giving to strangers.

    A young man desperate to please, and desperately in love.

    Wait! I hear you cry! That's not DARTH VADER

    Correction, that's not YOUR Darth Vader. But it's Darth Vader, never the less.

    It's presumptuous to assume that one sole person has the definative take on Vader/Anakin. If that were the case, we should all turn off our computers and go home.
    =D=

    Let's face it, none of us have him figured out and George loves that. That's why he's the character he is. That's why he adorns the cereal boxes and the Pop Tart boxes and the T-Shirt and the Uni signs and I could go on. George has created the quintesential mythological tragic hero of our generation. He's our Macbeth, Othello, Faust, and Hamlet...all rolled up into one.

    Doesn't it just make you want to [:D] him?

    :p[face_laugh]

     
  23. JadeSolo

    JadeSolo Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Doesn't it just make you want to [:D] him?

    Aaaall the time! [face_love]

    And that fanboy AU comic sounds really cool. :D
     
  24. darthnick11

    darthnick11 Guest

    Hello, I'm a fellow Vader/Anakin lover(well mostly Vader)and i would participate in any other challenges that are made :)

    VADER RULES!
     
  25. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2002
    Welcome, darthnick11!

    Yeah, we (read: I) need to get to work on March's as I have one day left. Then April's.



    On the Vader sleeping subject:


    [image=http://www.rhonderoo.com/vadersleeping.bmp]


    [face_laugh]
     
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