Anakin/Vader knew and planned all along!!!!!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Bart-Vader, Nov 18, 2005.

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  1. Bart-Vader Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2005
    I'm a newbie so don't flame me if I goof this up a little.

    I think Anakin/Vader planned to kill the emporer from the moment right before he kneeled down to become a sith, and clearly would have done so much sooner than ROTJ if Obi-Wan didn't perform surgery on his limbs for him. Also, he knew about his kids from the moment they were born, and in most cases kept them out of harms way if you think about it. I'll make a couple of points on why I think this.

    - He flat out says he wants to kill palps and take over
    - He said he could feel Padme in the force. The chosen one would sense the existance of his own children, especially ones that came from his adored wife, as some of her existance in the force surely would have been passed on to them.
    - Without his wife to partner with to run the galaxy, he wanted to wait for his children ie. ESB offer to Luke
    - It was his idea to let Leia leave with the plans to the Death Star
    - Somehow Leia ends up in the safest spot she can be in the galaxy when her home planet is blown away
    - Vader stops Leia from being terminated, "she may be of some use to us"
    - Vader makes the decision to go out into space right before the Death Star is blown to bits
    - He doesn't kill Luke, and appears distraught when Luke does the fall in ESB
    - When he was fighting Luke in ROTJ, I think he did exactly what he learned from Palps in ROTS, he feigned defeat, to lure Palps in, Palps steps in to kill Luke for Vader, and BAM!!! Anakin comes back and unexpectedly kills him
    - In ROTJ, Luke is coincidentally taken in by Vader right before the rebels are about to be ambushed
    - There are literally hundreds of examples that point to Vader being a very clever Sith Lord, staying on the good side of the Emporer, protecting his kids so that they may join him someday, and eventually exacting revenge on the emperor, which what I think it was. It seems to me that he had a lifetime plan for revenge on the emperor.

    Any thoughts, or more bullets to add to the list??

  2. AgentKenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2005
    Once he got the suit, he wasn't nearly as powerful as pre-suited Vader. It's the way of the Sith to kill eachother. Palpatine wanted Anakin to kill him. (or so I believe)


    "Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us!"



    I don't think, however, that Vader was "protecting" his kids so he could gain power and use them in the Empire.
  3. Darthdias Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2004
    star 3
    Vader clearly wanted to overthrow Palpatine, as he said to Padmé and Luke. However, watch Return of the Jedi again. Vader does not find out that he has a daughter until the very end. He only though Padmé had carried one baby. His actions in A New Hope are not because of compassion towards Leia, they depend solely on strategic advantages.
  4. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    This is a very entertaining theory.
    But IMHO, this is just too far out there.

    This one: "He doesn't kill Luke, and appears distraught when Luke does the fall in ESB"
    made me laugh aloud. So, you're saying Vader appears distraught in this scene? Was it his countenance that gave him away? The dude wears a MASK! There's no way to know how he felt about Luke's fall. When he communicates with Luke, he does continue to try to convert him to the dark side. But vader doesn't appear distraught in that scene.
  5. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    I don't think Vader knew anything. Quite naturally, he must have thought that Luke died with Padme because he doesn't know about a Skywalker besides him until Luke blows up the death star. Even during the time of ANH, Vader doesn't at all know about Leia until he probes Luke's thoughts towards the end of Episode VI.

    Yes, Vader wanted to overthrow Palpatine but his destiny was to kill Palpatine, not overthrow him.
  6. UltIMatEEviL Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2005
    bit off topic but how did vader use the choke force power and things with metal arms, he learned to channel it through them or what ^o|
  7. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    Just to address Anakin's fall in ROTS...

    When Anakin says "I pledge myself to your teachings"...

    I think the only thing he wants from dear old Sids is the way to save Padmé.

    Then on Mustafar...


    Anakin: Love won't save you Padmé. Only my new powers can do that.

    Anakin: [...] I am more powerful than the Chancellor - I can overthrow him and together you and I can rule the Galaxy ? make things the way we want them to be

    After he got what he wanted from Sidious, he figured he'd kill his new Master and take his place with Padmé by his side.

    On the rest,

    I think he was a self tormented soul who believed that he was responsible for Padmé's death including his child(ren), which fueled his anger throughout his enslavement to Sidious.

    However, once he learned of "young Skywalker" it did begin to create conflict within him, etc...
  8. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    In response to UltIMatEEviL,

    In the SW universe, when someone's limbs are cut off, the medics produce a module to connect to the nervous system for feeling, sensation, etc. It's not the fingers or the hands that connect to the Force for the Jedi, it's how the Force is felt and how a Jedi or Sith manipulates it. Anakin and his Vader persona can clearly use the Force, but like all Force users Sith and Jedi use their hands, mechanical or flesh, to put emphasis on how they are feeling the Force or directing their use of the Force.
  9. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i agree he didnt know that he had a son in ANH but i think he knew he had a son in ESB before palps told him.i think his " how is that possible" line is a lie.he tell ozzel "the rebles are there and im sure skywalker is with them", i doubt he thought the name skywalker was a coincidence.this is the meaning that the exchange has for me:


    PALPATINE: We have a new enemy,the young rebel how destroyed the death star, Im sure that this boy is the offspring of anakin skywalker

    VADER: How is that possible ??.

    PALPATINE: Dont BS me Lord Vader,you already knew[face_mischief]
  10. jedi_drifter Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2005
    star 1
    I don't know, yoshifett, I think he's right. I have always thought Vader appeared distraught in that scene, too. It is the way that he drops his hand and slightly slouches his shoulders.

    But, other than that, I don't really think Vader was planning anything after he got decimated by Obi-Wan, and learned that Padme was 'dead'. He planned on overthrowing Palpatine, no doubt, before everything went down hill. But once he lost everything, I think he just accepted his fate and became Sidious' right-hand man.
  11. JediNdaCity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2002
    star 3
    I think what he is saying is very plausible and it's all in how you interpret it "from a certain point of view". The trick I think to ANH is visually on the surface, you think Vader doesn't know he has any kids until he senses Luke and then uncovers his identity after the DS fiasco. But my belief is Leia is the first child he senses and what he is doing is "playing" the role of villian in how he deals with her, but deep in his heart, he knows something is different about her and the fact she resembles his dead wife probably drives it home further. Study those scenes closely in ANH, it does appear he is protecting her. When Alderaan is blown to bits, she is snug in Vaders' clutches. The ultimate protection and she doesn't even know it. It's when Luke enters the picture that things get fuzzy for him because he believed he was having one child and now he's sensing two people strong in the force and the second one is in fact named Skywalker. That I think is more confusing for him than the deal with Leia actually because if you think about it, he can almost put two and two together and figure out that Bail Organa, who was a close friend of Padme, is suddenly raising a daughter who is the same exact age as his child would've been AND she is a senator with many of Padme's characteristics. It's Luke that's throwing him off and making the puzzle more complex.
    The thing in ROTJ with suddenly realizing Luke had a sister by reading his thoughts? Vader was again, playing the role to goad Luke into coming out. He already knew. Think about it, folks. Vader is the chosen one, he has the most powerful midi count ever. Even if Leia isn't Force-aware yet, he would sense her and sense her power, even if it is untapped. So, the comment he makes to Palps about "how is that possible?" Is half truth and half BS, because he himself is thinking, "I thought I was onto my child, now they're two of them! What gives?"
  12. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Anakin turned simply for power, and in the beginning he just wanted Sids power and then he thought he could kill him. But Anakin underestimated the power of the dark side. For a long time the Emperor was all he had. He talked a big game but when it came to offing the Emperor he couldn't do it ;i.e. all he had to do was let Luke's saber keep going on DS2 and that would have been the end of it, but he had to fight because he was consumed by the darkside. SO yeah, he wanted to off Sids, but in the end what got him to was not his lust for power but rather his love for his son
  13. gdkzen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2004
    I agree with alot that the original post said. I have a few exceptions however:

    1) Vader did not feign defeat in ROTJ, he was beaten. Lucas has so much as said that Vader brought on that beating when he goaded Luke by saying he would go after Leia next. It's also fairly clear that Vader was surprised by Luke's speed and power. During the final saber scene, Vader is pretty much dodging blows for his life. Luke is doing a number on Vader like Vader did on Luke during the final saber scene in ESB - it's totally strength, no finesse.

    Luke maybe only half-trained, but the purpose of his training was to be a weapon against Vader. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, he's a weapon pointed at Vader by Obi-Wan and Yoda. Also given his lineage, he has an affinity for the force that only two other beings are comparable to (Leia and Vader), so the advantage of not being a half machine definitely comes into play here.

    2) I've always contended that Vader's role on the Death Star was much more than it seemed. Remember, that he held a position in the Empire second only to Palpatine, yet Palpatine his given Tarkin command of the Death Star project which supercedes Vader's position for the time being. Vader was in fact, Palpatine's eyes and ears on the Death Star - he was there to make sure that no one harbored any ill conceived notions of turning the thing towards Coruscant and nailing the Emperor. Towards the end, he most probably decides that Tarkin cannot be trusted with the Death Star and takes personal command of its defense. If the Death Star had survived and the base had been wiped out I believe Vader would have executed Tarkin for incompetence. In the movie there is no overt treachery by Tarkin (like in the Radio Drama), but he does ignore the threat to the station and Vader needs to pickup the slack. Generally Vader doesn't suffer fools well.
  14. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    i had the impression that he turned to keep his wife alive....
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin only planned to betray Palpatine once had a taste of the power, which he didn't truly have until he killed the Jedi and the Separatist Council. He didn't plan to kill Palpatine until after he talked to him about shutting down the Droid Army.
  16. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    Yeah SR70, the POWER to keep his wife alive :p
  17. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i know but you are making it sound as if for anakin everything was him,him,him,him,him and him when in fact is him,him,him,him,padme,obi wan,him :p
  18. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    He certainly didn't turn for Obi-wan... so it was more like him him him him him Padme, and them him some more. This is very hard hitting stuff we have going here.
  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    yeah but he did love obi wan,no matter all the whining he did love obi wan,i certainly wouldnt save someone's rear all the time if i disliked him :p
  20. masterluke9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    The line about "She may be of some use to us" didn't this come before he probed her? I haven't seen Anh in a little while so i'm not sure but i think he may have been talking about the information he got from that probing.
  21. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    the line was a lot after he probed her.it was when tarkin was informed that the falcon landed on the death star.
  22. Drac39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 6
    I think he did plan to kill Palpatine before he was defeated by Obi-Wan afterwards he really had nothing to live for and he didn`t have anyone to share his power with.

    Notice when Luke resurfaces he asks him that,Vader wants someone to team up with.
  23. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    I think what he is saying is very plausible and it's all in how you interpret it "from a certain point of view". The trick I think to ANH is visually on the surface, you think Vader doesn't know he has any kids until he senses Luke and then uncovers his identity after the DS fiasco. But my belief is Leia is the first child he senses and what he is doing is "playing" the role of villian in how he deals with her, but deep in his heart, he knows something is different about her and the fact she resembles his dead wife probably drives it home further. Study those scenes closely in ANH, it does appear he is protecting her. When Alderaan is blown to bits, she is snug in Vaders' clutches. The ultimate protection and she doesn't even know it.

    I think thats stretching it. It could also be interpreted as the Force protecting them both. Or interpreted a couple of other ways too if one wanted to stretch it.
  24. brobertsumc Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2005
    star 1
    I view the "how is that possible" line as a secret mocking of the emperor. I admit it involves some reading into it, but to me Vader is probably thinking "Yes, master, I know you lied to me about Padme and the children, you doddering old fool. You're not so clever as you think."
  25. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    I view the "how is that possible" line as a secret mocking of the emperor. I admit it involves some reading into it, but to me Vader is probably thinking "Yes, master, I know you lied to me about Padme and the children, you doddering old fool. You're not so clever as you think."

    Yep, he would have had to burn a lot more brain cells not to make the Skywalker who destroyed the Death Star connection.
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