Saga Anakin vs Ben Solo

hello!

i haven't seen anything like this so i thought i'd open the discussion.

obviously there are parallels between anakin/vader and kylo ren/ben solo to the point of people observing, this is how i'd have liked anakin to be written in the prequels, i'm sure you've read that too.

i'm interested in these characters and how they ended up manoeuvering themselves in a corner serving a kind of imperial bureaucracy and space nazis.

and when i look at their family background, it's obvious that there are huge differences in how they are both set up.

i can see fatherless anakin slowly being eroded by the lack of trust on the side of the jedi, i can see him slowly being groomed for apprenticeship by palpatine. i can see ben solo getting conflicting messages about who vader was, being confronted with the complicated and ambiguous legacy. i can see that his relatives, potentially, in their collective fear, were tryign to avoid the very thing that happens. i can see him desiring more power, to learn things luke isn't willing to give him.

but that, to me, sounds a lot like anakin.

so, i thought, how do you guys see this? (not sure my question is very clear) ... do you see them as the different sides of a coin, the dark side a compulsion that skywalkers will always fall for?of course i'm presupposing at the moment that ben solo committed to the first order properly.

 

The way I see it, they are very different sides of a similar coin (that coin being a turn to the Dark Side, I guess).

Anakin's turn, for what it's worth, felt genuine. His logic and perception of right and wrong was so obviously skewed at that point, but what he did, awful as it all was, he justified as being for the ones he loved. That's no real justification, of course, but that's what got him through it.

Ben, on the flip side, grew up idolizing Darth Vader (but seemed to be repulsed by the idea of Anakin Skywalker). When he went dark, it wasn't out of any perceived justification of his. It was something that he wanted, footsteps that he helped he could follow, "wrongs" (Vader being redeemed) that he felt he could "right" by sticking to the dark side and accomplishing what Vader failed to do in his final moments. Without his legitimate reason for turning to the dark side, however, Ben felt the pull to the light continuously after his descent. He was being tempted by the good, and in his mind the only way to extinguish that temptation would be to extinguish the one thing that caused Vader's failing; a connection to a family that he ultimately loved, a family that, right from the beginning, he did everything to help.

Ben is in no way a template for what Anakin could or should have been in the Prequels. Anakin is Anakin, and is a very different character than Ben. Similarly, I don't think Ben's story would have been nearly as interesting without the opposition it has against Anakin's much more tragic downfall. Ben is, for all intents and purposes, a poser, trying so hard to replicate something that he is not, something that he never should have been. Anakin's fall felt inevitable, bleak and tragic for him and reflected at large by the galaxy around him. Ben wanted that kind of a story for himself, but the conditions weren't there. The Empire had fallen, it was an era of peace, he had a family that loved him, so he went out and created his own tragedy, seemingly just because he could, because he wanted it.

 

I don't think the stories of Ben and Anakin are similar myself. I think what many people are comparing is the depiction of a conflicted/tortured character in a more general sense (at least IMO).

Adam Driver/JJ/Kasdan did a really good job of selling Kylo's internal conflict and making me believe that he was emotionally disturbed. Even though intellectually I was pretty sure he was going to kill Han, Driver sold the scene so well I almost thought he wasn't going to do it.

I don't personally have a huge problem with Hayden's acting... but I do think TFA demonstrates how to sell a conflicted character much better in the writing/directing department compared to the PT. Hayden did do a really good job in a couple of scenes when there was no dialogue (particularly the part right before he leaves to go find Windu/Sidious)

To be fair to the PT though we've only seen one movie of the ST..... and they didn't really get deep into why Kylo turned to the Dark Side. I don't think it will be fair to fully judge the depiction until we see more.

 

Anakin vs. Ben... I wrote something on a different thread similar to this topic earlier, and I definitely think they are different in several ways. Ben's childhood (if he grew up with Han and Leia for parents) most likely was extremely different from that of Anakin's. Ben Solo is almost a wanna-be Darth Vader to me, and the thing that knocks him down every time he wants to be great on he Dark Side is that fear of never being as great/skilled as Darth Vader. On top of that, he has a fear that the force is stronger with Rey than it is with him, and that holds him back from being "great" on the dark side. It is obvious that Ben has power, he just cannot utilize correctly for his own desirable purposes. Darth Vader understood the way of the force, and he used it accordingly. Anakin could control his power, and Kylo Ren...not so much. We'll see in episodes VIII and IX. Hope this helped!

 

Their status as foils (albeit similar ones) to one another are what already makes Ben my favourite character of the ST - possibly second favourite character overall. Just as Anakin struggled with the dark, Ben struggles against the light. The difference is that the light side is where Ben truly belongs, though (from how I interpret) he's not entirely sure of it himself. On the other hand, Anakin felt he was forced to be on the dark side, that desire was irrelevant and it was simply where he had to be. It's likely he felt he didn't deserve to be in the light anymore despite attaining that in his redemption.
Something rather interesting is that, even though there is much visual symbolism in the scene of Han's death, the novelization implies that killing his father only pushed Ben further towards the light in some twisted irony
I very much look forward to where he will go from here. Episode VIII should be very fascinating indeed

 

thank you very much for your responses. i'm sorta searching, obviously, there are no real answers to be had just yet.

what i'm struggling with is i think that if you're thinking in terms of family dynamics, ben seems to behave as if he has been betrayed by his family, or he had to betray them?

i think abrams/driver potentially, have spoken of someone who is driven by ideology. i kind of see this as a GFFA equivalent to terrorism, although, obviously it doesn't hold. i'm all mixed up with the morality, i don't think the force actually has two sides, i think that is gross simplification... there is a sense that kylo ren cannot face himself (literally!).

sometimes i see them as totally different people, which they are, and then, every time i delve into motivation, it looks like it's the same thing

 

Is it really fair to compare a character who has been in 6 movies with someone who is only in one?

 

good question

i don't think i compare them as characters.

i try to infer from how KR behaves to what motivated him to join snoke.and i run into problems and it involves speculation. but i thought it might be fun anyway.

like, for example, anakin has a power-theme built into his life. most of life he is an object to others. it seems logical that he is motivated to be in charge.

with ben i can't see that particular need to be in charge. when we see him, for all intents and purposes, he commands his space. he is also volatile and unhinged, but very commanding. so maybe he was promised something that luke couldn't or wouldn't give him.

 

The similarity between Annakin and Ben to me is that they're both victims of a legacy....

In Annakin's case, the legacy of potentially being the chosen one creates a heavy burden froma young age.... he doesn't really get determine his own path....a destiny is thrust on him and those who are skeptical place obstacles in his path and those who see him as the chosen one have extremely high expectations of him....... inevitably leading him to the one person who he feels understands him i.e Palpatine.

Now looking at Ben....he has the legacy of two famous and heroic parents, a heroic uncle and a super powerful grandfather.... the expectations are high.... again, those who imagine him doing great things as a result of his heritage would expect more of him than what is expected of any other young force sensitive.....on the other side, he would be curbed a lot more as well because of the fear he might turn into another Vader.... so like his grandfather, he must have gravitated to Snoke, thinking at least someone tries to understand him...

 

"Victims of legacy"? That's too easy. Both characters are responsible for their own choices, not some sort of legacy. Luke was told his legacy was to join his father and he didn't fall.

 

I wish Anakin in the PT was played the way Kylo was played (so far) in the ST... That's the way I imagined him in my head before the prequels were made!

 

Kylo to me is bland....he went to the dark side for power, how bland. Typical villain crap.

Anakin's path to hell was paved with good intentions. Clone wars and ROTS shows this well.

JJ said he went sith for typical teen angsts longing for power....lame.

In a nut shell

Kylo-(Crying) - I DONT KNWO WHAT TO DO! I wanna be good.....but.....I really like being strong.....WAAA!!!

Stupid Villain imo no offense to his fans. Anakin is much better.

 

We actually don't know exactly what happened. This board is full of people who project their own assumptions instead of actually watching what happens in the films.

 

Funny, because you're the one assuming. Like I said JJ said so himself in a interview with IGN.

 

Ben comes across to me as someone who parallels the modern-day privileged youth. They're given "everything" they need superficially. Sent to the best instructors and have their whole life planned out for them ahead of time. Often time these youth are neglected by their parents in other ways like their parents love/affection and the freedom to find their own path. Helicopter parents they're sometimes called. These youth will often act out and turn to drugs or violence as a result. Or even just start dressing like hipsters and move to the city where its more "organic". These youth grow up to be very insecure a lot of the time bc they have had such high expectation put on them so early between living up to the success of their parents or just living up to the expectation of their parents. This new term "affluenza" kind of comes to mind.

This is how I saw Kylo pretty early on. As the son of two galactic heroes, he probably grew up in an environment of wealth and privilege. A very sterile upbringing. Then he is trained by "the best" so to speak in Luke Skywalker to be a jedi. It sounds like Han and Leia may not have been the best parents in some way. Maybe they were so enthralled in their other work they never gave him much attention Maybe just the mere fact that Han wasn't strong in the force caused resentment in Ben, but I feel like it is probably more than that. Its interesting that Ben's relationship with Leia is never really mentioned. I wonder how he views her?

So between the legacy of not only his parents, but his uncle and grandfather, the possible neglect or high expectations placed on him by his parents, and simply a desire to rebel and follow his own path led him to the dark side.

Its interesting how kids who have troubled relationships with their parents often turn to their grandparents for guidance and for someone to look up to, and we see that with Ben in TFA

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Then there is Anakin who is obviously almost completely different in his upbringing. He was a slave with no father. But he was also clearly cared for and loved by his mother which I think allowed him to be more empathetic towards others which is why he seemed so giving and selfless in TPM.

Over time the pressure of being away from his mother, living up to the chosen one prophecy, being thrust into a world where he never really fit in, being trained by someone who didn't really "get" him the way Qui Gon probably would have, and then later on trying to hide his love of Padme and the Jedi's lack of trust in him eventually was too much and he exploded.

Two very different upbringings and motivations. I love how Anakin was portrayed. I know many don't, but IMO it was believable and an understandable path to the Dark Side. I found Hayden's acting completely fine within the parameters of the direction that George Lucas wanted to go. Ben's path is believeable too if you see the parallels I mentioned between him and today's affluent youth. I guess I just have more sympathy and can relate more to Anakin as a opposed to Ben based on my own background and upbringing

 

I love how both characters are villains but have two completely different types of personalities and motives. It keeps me from viewing Kylo as Vader II

 

Has anyone ever had the feeling that they are going to make 10,11 and 12 as a prequel trilogy for this sequel trilogy which shows you events straight after ROTJ. Luke's new Jedi school, Ben Solos birth and downfall to the dark side.
That would be ****ed up in itself.

 

I am not saying that they didn't make bad choices...but at the end of the day, Luke was told by only Darth Vader and Palpatine that it was his destiny to join his father (neither of whom he really trusted).... he had plenty of support from his friends and mentors that would have made a difference when he finally made a decision.... in the case of Annakin, he only probably had the support of Obiwan (but he too kept advocating patience, thats all)....and we are already seeing the hints of the isolation Ben Solo also probably felt (the sequels would give more detail).....

Secondly, Luke was brought up in a stable environment with his uncle and aunt...Annakin was a slave and he was separated from his mother to become a jedi and subsequently loses her under horrid circumstances....Ben may have had wonderful parents but one was busy with politics and the other didn't really settle down (he hadn't seen Ben's face as an adult)....so even if he had celeb parents, he had an isolated life....

So Luke had many more odds in his favor when it came to decision making...

 

One should not forget that the guy is 29 years old. At some point, blaming the parents for their rotten son doesn't cut it anymore. I see no evidence in the film that Leia and Han were bad parents. One just needs to closely watch the dialogue to get a good impression what was going on.

I however think that he simply didn't want help from his dad, mom or uncle, thus effectively isolating himself. You can only help someone if they accept your help.

You got it backwards. The movie heavily implies that Han went back to smuggling because Kylo fell when still a teenager. Leia also threw herself into work because of the trauma.

 

First, I don't think he chose the dark side at the age of 29....it happened in his early 20s if you calculate back to the killing at the jedi academy.... and I definitely never said blaming his parents was the reason he joined the dark side.. I said he did not have the support structure in childhood that Luke had... it is only one of several factors that might have led him down that road... and once they join the dark side, I don't think it is that easy to leave it (not like one can close a subscription or something) .....

1. Han clearly states that he thought Ben had too much Vader in him and that it was he who sent him away to Luke.

2. Leia clearly says that patience and understanding were not some of Han's qualities.

3. Also Leia tells Han that Snoke was after Ben from the very beginning but she never told Han because she thought she could deal with it.

4. We have no idea of Uncle Luke's side of the story except for the fact that he took on a very heavy burden of rebuilding the jedi order.... so I can't comment on his involvement with Ben.

But what is emerging is a lot of miscommunication between family members and poor decisions...infact, their "help" might have ended up being counter productive and pushed him further to the dark side.

Not really.... the movie only mentions that they did not see each other after Ben turned to the dark side. But if you real the Star Wars Aftermath novel (book 1), it clearly mentions how Leia is busy traveling and trying to rebuild the republic and Han is traveling with Chewie trying to get back to smuggling....so even while they were together, they spent a lot of time apart.)

 

But he is 29 now and posters are still looking back to his parents. It's time for him to be responsible for his own actions.

How do you know he didn't have a support structure? I don't read that into the movie. When Leia is worried he might fall, she sends him to someone who is a force expert. That's the action of a loving parent, not someone indifferent. They made some mistakes, surely, but that doesn't make them responsible, especially when the kid didn't respond to their attempts to reach him.

1) No, Leia says "when I sent him away I lost you both". She is blaming herself for Kylo because she is a good, moralic person who would do that. Most mothers would. As for Han's line, he is also seeking answers in a way to cope with what happened, Vader's DNA is one such explanation.
2) She spoke of patience, yes. Han is not the perfect person, but I don't think he is a bad father either. He is willing to risk his life for Ben.
3) I think Leia leaving her husband in the dark was her greatest mistake.

I just don't understand why you are so quick to blame the parents for Kylo's deeds and not Kylo for Kylo's deeds? Your posts appear very biased pro-Kylo, like you are willing to forgive him on the grounds that his upbringing was supposedly so bad.

Not really.... the movie only mentions that they did not see each other after Ben turned to the dark side. But if you real the Star Wars Aftermath novel (book 1), it clearly mentions how Leia is busy traveling and trying to rebuild the republic and Han is traveling with Chewie trying to get back to smuggling....so even while they were together, they spent a lot of time apart.)[/quote]

Kylo wasn't born in Aftermath, was he? The dialogue about the good times they had tells me they've been together for a while, probably before the whole Kylo fiasco which caused them to drift apart again. Leia said that Han's face was a painful reminder of what happened.

 

Kylo wasn't born in Aftermath, was he? The dialogue about the good times they had tells me they've been together for a while, probably before the whole Kylo fiasco which caused them to drift apart again. Leia said that Han's face was a painful reminder of what happened.[/quote]


Yes, I am pro-Kylo and I can see you're not (I'm going to take a guess here- you're a finn-rey shipper probably....as for my views, they are all backed by reasons explained in the associated novels (canon) which I have mentioned in my previous posts and you've chosen to ignore .... I keep saying this again and again... I don't blame the parents.. ... please read my posts before jumping to conclusions.

 

In retort to the "He's 29.." argument: Where you come from is a good indication of where you are going.