Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Duckman, May 20, 2002.
JediNdaCity makes me sad to be a human being.
This is an utterly ridiculous thread - it shouldn't even continue this far.
Great discussion! Here's how I see it:
1) Anakin was *emotionally* justified in killing all of the Tuskins. When watching that scene, I felt an urge that something must happen--justice must be served. You can't just stuff these type of emotions away and forget about them--something must happen. Either you release this emotional energy on those who are to blame for it, or you live a tormented life with the pain that you did nothing to right the wrong that has been done. I think Anakin was *emotionally* justified.
2) Anakin should never have put himself in that position in the first place. Jedi are not supposed to allow emotion to control their actions (as Ani did when coming to Tatooine). Further more, the reason Jedi require detachment is to avoid situations like this (as someone else pointed out earlier). Put in this situation, there really is no 'good' way out. It's not 'good' to just leave. It's not 'good' to kill everyone. Sure, it's wrong to kill en masse but the situation was there and something had to happen (either Ani stuffs it away and slowly goes insane -or- he releases it all at once in an uncontrollable rage). I should also point out that the Tuskin are just as much to blame for their demise as is Anakin. Basically, the situation was 'bad' and there was no 'good' way out of it. I don't think it makes much sense to argue whether Anakin's actions were 'right' or 'wrong'--he didn't really have many alternatives did he?
Personally, I think that anyone who believes Anakin was justified is either a Republican or just messed up in the head.
But what do I know.
After some thinking, I've changed my mind:
Well, Jedi are allowed to kill, just not in anger. (Obi-Wan, Mace, and the rest sure don't seem guilty about it.) So Anakin's mistake (from a Jedi's point of view) was to kill in anger. If he wept for his mom, calmed down, and said "These Tuskens are a menace to everyone's security," all he'd be guilty of is a preemptive strike with some innocent casualties.
Whoever said that "killing for revenge is wrong" is probably right. You don't kill people to get revenge, you kill them so they can never commit crimes again.
I think that's perfectly rational. Of course, Anakin wasn't being rational.
Doesn't Obi Wan kill Darth Maul through hate?
No, Bilton, no, Obi-Wan does NOT kill through hate.
He is full of hate when he attacks Maul, and gets his butt kicked.
Then, he is in that pit. He calms and THEN is able to kill Maul.
That's why killing Maul is considered his Trials. Because if he did not return from the Dark Side, he would be considered a failure by the Jedi - even if he killed Maul.
And that's another thing that TPM gives us: the way a Jedi should behave. Not the part of giving in to hatred and anger and wishing for revenge, but the part of controlling emotions.
That's why, for instance, Mace Windu did not kill Dooku despite Dooku having orchestrated multiple assassination attempts on Amidala. Despite the executions that had just been taking place before his eyes. Not only because he wanted an investigation, but because a Jedi must not kill when he/she does not HAVE to kill (as in: self-defence).
And now: do you know that in most laws on Earth there is a distinction between a cold-blooded murder, and murder done in passion? People are not always doing the reasonable things - not always remembering that all killing is evil. That's why, if Anakin had been a common person, like you and me, I would probably forgive him for killing - one Tusken, two. I don't think I would do that, but I would understand if someone did that.
But there are two points here.
One, Anakin did not kill in passion. Those first two Tuskens, perhaps, but the other ones?
Two, Anakin is a Jedi. Even if I could forgive a common person, a Jedi is supposed to control emotions. That is the sense of the whole Jedi training: not to learn to do fancy tricks, but to learn to control your emotions.
Excuse this crude reference to the real life, but look what's happening in Israel/Palestine. Whatever the initial reasons of the conflict were - and I don't want to insult those people by pretending to know their reasons - now it's a lot like "Someone killed someone on my side, so now I'll kill someone on their side." That's what happens when people are governed by emotions! And imagine if there were Jedi, with all their power, fighting on both sides with no greater justification than this one!
Or see Godfather and see what vendetta did to Sicily. And to Michael Corleone. Anakin is much like Michael, don't you think?
The only thing that redeems Anakin for me is what I think redeemed him for Padme.
Watch the dialogue in the garage again.
He tells Padme that he couldn't save her, and that one day he'll prevent people from dying, but she sees that this is not what is really bothering him.
What IS bothering him is that he killed all those Tuskens. He IS feeling guilt and remorse. He tread on the Dark Side, but he isn't Vader yet.
And one more thing. I believe the Tuskens are sentients, not animals. But that isn't important. What is important is that Anakin thinks of them as sentients. Not mindless animals.
All I have to say is that I promote senseless violence! As long as it 1. Looks good, 2. gets more of Natalie Portman's clothes off...
"I cannot justify his actions of killing all of them, then bragging about it."
I am not justifying his actions either. But I do not think that Anakin was bragging about it. It bothered him that he gave into the hate. And he did show remorse when he collapsed crying. What he did bothered him.
"Every Tusken in that camp was guilty of murder. "
This is ridiculous. A three year old has a parent that tortures and murders people. Does the three year old even know what is going on? If so then he probably fears it. But how does the child stop it at age three? Or even younger?
Only the participants are guilty of murder, torture, etc. Those that stood by and did nothing are also guilty of failing to stop the murder, torture, etc. But the young children? They are guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
"Anakin killed innocent people and did evil actions but he did no worse in my mind than the Tuskens he killed...or less."
This may be so, but (and I am not saying that you are implying this) that does not in and of itself make what Anakin did morally ok.
One evil act does not then make the next immoral.
For instance if someone came into a neighborhood and killed twenty people, that does not then make it ok to go into their neighborhood to kill twenty people there. What should be done is for the orignal killers to be stopped and dealt with.
Now Anakin's situation is more complex due to the fact that it is not premeditated.
Also I agree that people who are saying what they would do in his shoes should take a breather. You do not know until it would happen to you. You only know what you would like to do, or think you would do.
I'd like to clarify something I said earlier. When I said Anakin was *emotionally* justified I meant he murdered in rage or passion, and so could be considered insane at the time. That doesn't mean that what he did was *morally* justified, and it doesn't mean he shouldn't be punished. It just means that I understand and simpathize with him for breaking down, which I think any human would if put in that (horrible) situation.
Also, remember that Anakin is not a Jedi yet so he can't be expected to take the perfect Jedi action (investigate and punish those who are guilty).
The only reason I can see we someone would say that it is OK to kill children is to get a rise out of people. If this is how you entertain yourself I feel sorry for you. For you right-wingers, the FBI and ATF caused the fire that killed everyone in the Waco compound, including the children of the murderers, after many of their comrades and friends died in the initial encounter. Even though it was not intentional, no one saw any justification to the Waco inferno.
If a cop found the man that killed his mother and proceeded to kill him and his wife and kids, that cop would not be a hero in anyone's eyes.
"Personally, I think that anyone who believes Anakin was justified is either a Republican or just messed up in the head."
Talk about generalization...
Correction to a nasty typo in my last post above:
"One evil act does not then make the next immoral."
The last word should be "moral."
This is my biggest complaint about the movie is that that the full confession and specifically Padme's reaction was cut.
As it was written in the book, it had HUGE implications on the characters, and Anikan's downfall. It inspired the quite vigorous "Padme is SUCH an enabler..." thread which covered the very debate going on here...
To cut this takes the freaking heart and soul out of the plot single handedly.
If the whole point of the Star Wars saga is to track Anikan's downfall and eventual redemption - then this was a stupid ***STUPID*** thing to cut.
It makes the difference between this being a decent Star Wars movie rather than an Excellent Movie... Period.
And Obi-Wan McCartney what the hell kind of comment was that? People like you are worse for our democracy than Pat Buchannan...
i think he should have killed everyone, beru, lars, cliegg, padme, r2, 3po they all deserved it..
I can't even believe this is a discussion! Anakin isn't a human being anymore, he isn't allowed to experience episodes of rage and unbridled killing! He isn't even really allowed to do more than simply walk away! Why you ask? Easy! HE IS A JEDI, and revenge is not a Jedi concept!
He, like all other Jedi walk a line that is very Very thin. There is the light side which is compassion, patience, and a bravery. Then there is the dark side which is what a Jedi MUST both face and avoid. It is anger, fear, hatred, and malice. Anakin crossed the line bettween his training and his heart. He gave in to his emotions and he not only got his revenge, but he killed many beings not even associated with his mother's kidnapping. He is a murderer! He is an abuser of his power! He is in turmoil!
Make no mistake about it, the first episode may have some justification but given time he will continually fall into this trap and it will get easier each time. Every abuser begins with a single "incident", one they may deeply regret, but without help it will get worse.
I fear we know that Anakin will not get the proper counsel he needs. His lover tells him "he is only human" and with the clone wars on, Yoda and the other Jedi will likely be too busy with matters to attend to it. He will still have a friend in Palpatine though and this will continue the fall. A beautiful tragedy that will play out completely by the next film.
Look, I can summarize this neatly.
Anakin isn't COMPLETELY free of hate and anger, because he started his training too late in life; the early training was never there.
Plus, have you ever felt the urge to (do some stuff that if I wrote, I'd be moderated) to someone? If someone killed your mother, you'd probably be totally irrational for the next 5 minutes AT LEAST. And it didn't seem to me that the slaughter lasted too long, either.
So, human irrationality+no childhood training=you would do the same thing.
"If the whole point of the Star Wars saga is to track Anikan's downfall and eventual redemption - then this was a stupid ***STUPID*** thing to cut."
Exactly! Though I have not read the book yet, by your descriptions, I do think the slaughter and confession scenes should've been more like the book.
Look, if GL had shown Anakin standing over a "little girl" Tusken Raider who was begging for mercy (however Tusken Raiders beg for mercy) and then heartlessly lopping off her head, well, I can't see how any of you could possibly defend him.
By cutting that scene up, GL left some of us enough wiggle room to sympathize with Anakin. Maybe GL did it on purpose, maybe for some reason he wants us to sympathize with him. Maybe he just doesn't want us to hate Anakin yet. ??
Still, I think it was a mistake.
I quite agree with everyone who has said that they obviously and emphatically disagree with what Anakin did....that there can be no real justification for killing innocent women and children, whether or not they are Tuskens....but what's just as crucial is to understand where Anakin was coming from when he did it. Though she was so far from him for so long, she was one of the main stable things in his life...something he could always trust in, and simply put, he always believed she would be there. And when she wasn't, when that support and familiarity and the only person who had ever been there, and cared for him, *all* his life....when that was taken away from him....he snapped. He was grieving, and confused, and hurting beyond all description....and he just wanted to make the pain *stop*....and that's why he lashed out. Of course, wreaking vengeance as he did, taking it out on all those who he felt had wronged him so horribly....it wouldn't make the pain stop. But Anakin didn't care.
He lashed out blindly, enraged....*any* of us would under similar circumstances. A person can claim to be as calm and serene and unflappable as they like....and most of the time, that may indeed be the case. But not always, because there will come a time when something happens that's simply more than a person can bear. Jedi or not, they'll reach their breaking point; if they lose someone, tragically, unexpectedly and horribly....it'll shake them down to the core, maybe even break them. And in the midst of that maelstrom of grief, confusion, denial, pain and loss....as has been said, yeah, they can end up doing things that they would *never* even think of otherwise. In sane, normal, rational fair circumstances, they would never even dream of it. But sometimes, something will happen that is so cruel and unjust and utterly unfathomable, to a breaking grief-stricken heart....that the person will just - snap.
In Anakin's place, I think that any of us would have done it. I know that *I* certainly would have, I'd have been driven to, because if it's someone I love so much....someone who means *everything* to me, who is my stable centre, my whole world....and if they're taken away from me....then, yes - I can see how a point could come where I'd lash out that blindly, unthinkingly, out of pure grief and loss and simply because I want the pain to stop. And if it never truly does, as Anakin realized soon enough....then that only adds further poison to the wound of the loss, and makes it all the more cruel and unbearable.
I look at it this way....that I may not necessarily condone what he did, obviously; slaughtering women and children of the Tusken camp, perhaps there can never truly be justification for that. Even Anakin himself, later, when the grim weight of his loss, and his own actions and all the blood on his hands, seemed to sink in....he was devastated when it hit him full-force, and he crumbled, and little wonder. But even he knew the line that had been crossed, irrevocably, understandably but so horribly just the same.... But still, even if I cannot entirely condone his actions - neither will I condemn him. Because I understand where he was coming from, why he felt driven to it, and to me that makes all the difference. You know what I mean.
Yes, Anakin's a Jedi. But that doesn't mean he's an emotionless robot who will react to nothing, neutral on all points. He has his own strong opinions, he feels, he reacts....and he lashes out, sometimes wildly, blindly unthinking. He's human, he's a creature of emotion; yes, he has all that power of the Force behind him, and thus when he lashes out he goes at it full-bore, the Force itself wielded as his sword....but it's his own self, his soul, his emotions that drive him. And I think that's the case with any Jedi such as Obi-Wan and, yes, Qui-Gon as well, as but a few examples....that being Jedi does not automatically preclude you from displaying emotion, or acting on it, more accurately. And I happen to think that it's the struggle with his emotions, the attempts to rec
The Indian theory interests me but let's remember one thing, if the "evil" whites/europeans did not create America, Hitler would have killed every Jewish person (including GL and Natalie), every Indian, every Gypsy, and anybody else he didn't like. There would be no Star Wars, or internet.
So you see the Whites throwing out the Indians was for the greater good as tragic as that is. The Indians would have been killed by the Spaniards or someone else and the US would not exist.
Now as for the Tuskens, Anakin should probably have not killed the women and children but technically without there men they were dead anyhow. Maybe this is how Anakin brings balance to the Force, by Luke becoming a more well-rounded person as well as a Jedi.
As for the terrorists, they are scum. Really, you have a problem with the ISraelis? Then fight a man to man war, not blowing up women and children. Yet when Israel brings a real war to them, they cry to the UN. I am not Jewish but these terrorists make me sick.
I cannot sympathize with the Anakin that is torn apart over the loss of his mother side because he has chosen, as a boy, to not let this be a part of him when he left with Master Qui-Gon. Anakin doesn't have the choice to be torn up and seeking vengence because his first priority is to the Jedi order and it's ideals, not to his emotions. Perhaps some explanation of the Jedi themselves is in order.. At least, Jedi as I view them.
Jedi are supposed to shed away their attachments to the individuals who were important in their early life in order to take a monastic, compassionate view on all people and on all things that live. They cannot form much more attachment to something than a friendship otherwise situations may cloud their judgements. Yoda created a fuss about Anakin being too old to begin his training and too attached to his mother. This wouldn't have been the case if he was taken away at a younger age when this level of attachment to her would not have formed.
Unfortuantley, events dictated he be taken into the order and the results of that ill-made decision are manifesting in an overly zealous act of mass murder by the immature pupil that was the result. To this extent, I can empathize with Anakin, but he ignored his training and it's as simple as that. If you really want to be mad at someone, be mad at the Council that granted him his training to begin with. They are the real villans in this event!
"I killed him."
"Yeah, you killed the hell out of him."
"He had it coming."
"Yeah, we all got it coming, kid."
I think there is a major point for Americans in AOTC that is being neutered by high and mighty Liberal/Conservative rhetoric.
It is human nature to hope for a simplistic black/white solution to the problems of the world.
It used to be that Star Wars, etc., gave us escape from the truly insoluble problems that have always plagued the human condition. Vader/Emperor=BAD, everyone else-GOOD. My (gray) hat is off to Lucas for advancing his morality beyond the b*llsh*t simplicity of the classic era of cinematic escapism.
To take the Tuskens as a metaphor---
Tuskens are a pillaging culture. They gain their daily sustenance from stealing it (or "re-taking it", depending on your point of view) from settlements that may or may not have stolen Tusken land in the first place (we are not given enough backstory to know, but it doesn't matter).
The "innocent" children in such a culture have no choice--they *will* be raised to do exactly as their fathers are doing. That is to say, there is no evil cabal or evil handful of males who are committing the atrocities--the violence is a part of the culture. These Tusken children *will* grow up to pillage, rape, and terrorize the occupants of lands surrounding the dirt that noone else wants (the dirt that Tusken's occupy).
To selectively murder only the Tusken fathers is to merely add to the already present culture of vendetta and violence.
Does any of this ring a bell regarding the intractable problem in the Middle East?
Anakin's "proper" solution would have been to set up a "Skywalker Ranch for the Redemption of the Children of a Blindered Vendetta Culture", maybe with funds from the apparently bottomless bank account of a Mr. Dooku. But that ain't gonna happen. Another solution is to wipe them out--all of them.
Yet another solution is to simply wring your hands, and pensively/fearfully deal with the perpetual vendetta cycles, as has been the case for all of recorded history in that region. Bombs in marketplaces, buildings collapsing, and poor people being very, very angry that they are poor.
Kids, welcome to the real world. It's not PG, and there are no absolutes. The real world is a dangerous place, with hate that cannot be solved by simplistic appeals to common sense or human decency, because *my* decency may be *your* rape, and *your* justice may be *my* rape.
Decipher the above at will.
PS. Did anybody else hear the name "Sifo-Dias" as "Cipher-Dios" (literally: "figure out the Devil") in AOTC?