Anakin was right to kill the Tusken Raiders!

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Duckman, May 20, 2002.

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  1. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Well, I thought they cut out a lot of dialogue out of a lot of scenes, and I wished they would have left it in even if the movie would have been four hours long. However, it doesn't change the fact that in that scene, I didn't feel like Anakin was bragging. Bragging and tears don't usually go together. As far as the comment about animals, and hating them--what they did to Shmi was worse than animalistic, and he had every right to hate them. Most of us would hate them if they did that to our mothers.
  2. JubJub the Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 1999
    star 1
    This whole "guilt by association" theme is very disturbing and the fact that people actually justify killing of any sort is even more so. Timothy McVeigh rationalized the deaths of all the governments workers in Oklahoma city because of their association with the Government he fought against by using Star Wars terminology, that what he did was akin to Luke's victory against the Death Star, that all the individuals who died on the Death Star deserved their fate because of their association with the Empire. It may seem like a stretch, but from a certain point of view, this is the thought process that some of you guys actually uphold. Would I do the same thing if I were in the same situation? Maybe, maybe not. So many people are governed by impulse, myself included, that it's a very distinct possiblilty. Sure, I might lash out in anger and decapitate/dismember/disembowel a few Raiders, but I'd like to think that at a certain point, right before I gut some hapless toddler who's conception of what's right and what's wrong isn't even formed yet, who's only fault is to be born within a culture with different standards that my own, I'd like to think that I'd hesitate and think twice. I guess my point is that violence, and more explicitly REVENGE, is a self defeating act that always escalates uncontrolably beyond the source. Or maybe we've been watching two different Sci-Fi epics here?

    In any case, as a plot device, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing was engineered by Sidious to unlock the dark side within Anakin.
  3. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    JubJub: I think you're right about that one. Of course revenge is self-defeating; and I also wouldn't be surprised if the whole thing wasn't engineered by Sidious, although I think it's more likely that Sidious just used Anakin's circumstances to his benefit.

    There have been several threads on this topic, and I think it all comes down to two questions. The first is, was Anakin right to do what he did? The answer? Of course not. Killing out of revenge and hatred just perpetuates a cycle of killing. However, the second question is, who are we to judge? Unless we have each been in the situation in which we have found our mothers tortured to death, tied to a pole in a tent for a month while all the beings in the camp either participated in the torture or watched, and can say for sure what we would do, I don't think we have any right to condemn Anakin for what happened. It may not have been right, but it was certainly understandable. This is where the McVeigh comparison doesn't cut it. McVeigh was plotting revenge against an institution, a government. Anakin was avenging his mother's death. Two very different things.

    I would like to think that if I were in Anakin's situation, I would have just walked calmly out of the camp with my mother's body--but let's be realistic. Not gonna happen. Sorry. You do that to my mother, I'll make Anakin look like a saint. Sure I'd regret it afterwards and know it was wrong, but I feel pretty sure that's what would happen.
  4. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    I think killing the ones who killed the mother is justified, for you or me, not for a Jedi. Killing everyone can't be condoned in any situation.
  5. jedi_knight22 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 2
    Padme Bra is exactly right! :D
  6. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Children? Must that be explained?

    Should the infant twins, Luke and Leia, be dashed against the rocks because their father is Vader?

    Qui-Dawn, I agree with you. Giving Anakin a motive that anyone could understand (torture and murder of a mother for no reason), he has managed to reveal the potential for the Dark Side in all, born even of the best intentions.

    This hit close to home for me: a few months ago, my mother had a cancer scare (she's ok now). As soon as I heard, I received leave from work and jumped into my car and drove 500 miles nonstop to go to her and escort her to the doctors. Every mile on the road, my expression was the same as Anakin's on the swoop bike.

    Just as the Jedi are a blend of Eastern Buddhist warriors, like samurai, and Western Christian warriors, like the Knights Templar, GL has Anakin cross the ethical boundaries of each tradition.

    As soon as I saw HC's eyes ignite, I knew he'd kill in anger, which is against the samurai bushido tradtion. My jaw dropped in horror when he crossed the line and killed children- clear non-combatants and women. We will see him kill again, "not just the men, but the women, and the children too" in the Jedi purge -- yes, down to last adorable youngling.

    For those who say, maybe if he only attacked the men or only those he knew for certain hurt his mother, consider the following story (from a classic Japanese text, if anyone had the original title, please provide) You will understand why he changed ROTJ to Return instead of Revenge.

    "Miyamoto Musashi, one of the greatest samurai swordsman of feudal Japan, approached his assailant--an enemy of the emperor. Unsheathing his sword, he inched toward his foe, ready for the brief but deadly encounter. Suddenly, the assailant spat in Musashi's face. Composed, yet stunned, Musashi resheathed his sword, calmly turned and walked away. The moment spittle hit his face he felt rage. But the samurai never take a life in anger. It is against their Bushido.

    Bushido means "code of ethics." The Samurai lived by such a code and many people still do. It delineates acceptable and unacceptable behaviors. It emphasizes what is valued most and prevents these values from extinguishing with time. It is a personal code of conduct, allowing individuals to survive, to thrive, to find meaning in their existence."

    www.rodmachado.com/Articles/samurai.htm
  7. smauldookie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 5
    as a jedi anakin was wrong in killing the tuskens. jedi don't kill coldhearted.

    as a nonjedi he would be right. if that was my mother, i would pull out my gun and shoot every them person i believe was responsible for her death. shoot them down hardcore.
  8. Ceifer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2001
    star 4
    Damn right he was right for killing all of those damn stupid smelly tusken raiders. Like he said "they're animals" so the best way to get rid of them is to "slaughter them like animals". [face_devil]
  9. smauldookie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 5
    KILL,KILL,KILL ALL THE TUSKENS!!!!!!!!
  10. General_Lando Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2000
    star 1
    If you're a war frenzy member of the Bush clan I would say: "If you harbor a terrorist, you are a terrorist...make no mistake about it". If you are civilized I would say: Subpoena Nomad Leader Tusken and his Tusken camp. Let corrupt judges and lawyers get Anakin Justice"

    If I was an Israeli I would say bomb Mos Eisley and tell them to Condemn the attacks in their native Huttese.
  11. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Anakin Skywalker was not right to do what he did. Doing what he did to the Sand People would not bring Shmi back. That was a clear trial for him that he failed. Yes, I do believe Master Obi-Wan should've let him go get her far before anything this bad could've happened. Kenobi shares the blame in this incident too.

  12. Worldapart1967 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    Wow Darth Pooh. You really opened my eyes to so much! Thanks. What type of work are you involved with? :)
  13. Kiki-Gonn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2001
    star 6
    How can this discussion even be going on?

    Slaughter of women and children BAD kids. If you can't see that, grow up.

    Morality 101... Anakin was no better than the Raiders when he slaughtered the village. In fact he was worse because he had the philosophical knowledge to know better.



  14. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    Someone please condense these threads. I can't count how many Tusken Raider Killing/Murder ones are out there.

    Anyways, this point is moot. Killing is wrong. And what Anakin did was akin to murder.

    FYI - these threads persist because people flame others opinions to get a rise out of them.
  15. phantom31415 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2002
    star 1
    Killing is not always wrong.

    Murder is always wrong.

    There is a big difference. Killing the male tuskens was acceptable because they are a threat to the lives of farmers all over tatooine. Letting them go would have been unacceptable. However, as a Jedi, Anakin is held to a different standard. Sure he should have killed the raiders, but not in a dark side state of anger. Of course, after the brutal killing of his mother, it is hard to imagine him condicting a mere dispassionate extermination.

    The killing of the women and children, while possibly not actually wrong, was at the very least unnecessary.
  16. AGGIE_WAN_KENOBI Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 1
    Killing for sustenance is fine. But I didn't see Anakin making Tusken Burgers or Sand People Jerky. Killing someone in the defense of your own life is fine.

    Anakin was way overboard. The guilty ones, I could possibly understand, but one must remember than Anakin cannot be Judge, Jury and Executioner. Themurder of women and children showed exactly how much of a monster he is. As of now, I feel no sympathy for Anakin. I must wait til after Eppy III to see if Luke will redeem him in my eyes.

    The killing of the women and children, while possibly not actually wrong, was at the very least unnecessary. - you have got to be kidding me! Tell that to all the parents of murdered children. Sorry your childs death was unnecessary. that's cold. [face_plain]

  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    From page 1:

    "I was always troubled about the way Qui-Gon just "took" Anakin without taking or freeing his mother."

    Qui-Gon mentioned that he tried to free Anakin's mother but Watto wasn't having it. It was before the podrace when Qui-Gon wagered the race on BOTH Anakin and his mom but Watto wasn't going for it since he believes that "no pod is worth 2 slaves by a long shot".

    He couldn't force the Republic's laws down Watto's throat knowing that it's not the Jedi way to boss people around(which is what the Sith do) and even if he did, he would have to contend with the Hutts for his behavior.

    Besides, Shmi didn't want to leave since her place and future resides on Tatooine, which she says so herself.
  18. Darth Dradus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2000
    star 3
    Fall_OF_Shadows, the name of the Text is called "The Book of Five Rings". Hope that clears things up.
  19. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    I think you've all managed to find the heart of what GL is trying to accomplish w/ the Anakin/ Vader character.

    Anakin is the anti/hero of this film series. The story arc is all about the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. The Prequels are being created so we can understand how a decent young kid, can succumb to Darkness.

    We are meant to understand Anakins actions. We really can understand why Anakin slaughters the Raiders. We are also meant to feel uncomfortable by what he does. Anakin mirrors the Dark Side within all of us.

    Most people of course do not let themselves be ruled by their emotions. The problem is Anakin cannot behave rationally, he acts first, and realizes the consequences later. He is completely ruled by his emotions, couple that with being arrogant and you have a seriously dangerous psychosis. The problem is though, the more Anakin gives into his basic urges for seek revenge/justice for his pain and rejection, the more empowered he becomes.

    The Dark Side is like a drug. It is seductive, consuming the goodness in Anakin's nature. The audience can see his innocence slipping away, and it is painful to watch. This is why Ep 3 should be heartwrenching to watch.
  20. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Thanks, Darth Dradus. It's been years since I took the Japanese Anthropology class where I first heard that tale.

    A Book of Five Rings
    by Miyamoto Musashi,
    Victor Harris, Translator (this edition appears to still be in print)
  21. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    JubJub, however, Luke did not kill them out of anger. When it comes to morals, the motive is more important in a way than the action. Luke was trying to save lives. If you have to choise between a million and billions, then if you take the million to save the billions, then it is sort of right. However, if you take the million because you hate them, or a few of them, then it is still wrong. That is one way to look at it

    The other way is to ask "what is the best thing to do?" My personal belief is that killing a million to save billions is still wrong, but neither option is morally right. You have to make the correct desision when there is no right desision.

    Maybe it is the correct thing to take reveng, but it is never i think the right thing to do.

    It is not murder to kill in honest self defence or defence of others.
  22. Shadow_of_Evil Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2001
    star 6
    I dont wanna sound like a crazy man or anything. But i believe what anikan did wasn't justified, but i still would have done it.

    Even if it happened now in the real world. I would pull out my katana sword and hunt down whoever killed my mum. Straight out! No hessitations.

    But i woudln't take it out on people that had nothing to do with it........ Thats as bad as killing all the Middle eastern people for what some terrorist did..... They cant help it.
  23. kampilan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin killing the whole tribe is not the same as Mace beheading Jango...
    Sure, there may have been deleted scenes but they're EU since Lucas didn't keep them!
    Just like the rumored deleted Jango/Mace scenes that seemed to prolong their fight.
    From what Lucas kept as print, Jango knew he was gonna die and that he just wanted to go out as a Mandalorian...
    Anakin had no right but he had the might. Might don't really make you right. "With great power comes great responsibility."

    That goes to Mace as well. He had Jango already and could've anticpated his next move since he's #2 to Yoda but Jedi ain't perfect so he went on instinct and showed his true colors: punka$$ loser!
    I remember OB1 telling Luke in ANH to "act on instinct". Acting on your instincts shows your true colors be it Saint or Sinner...
  24. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    Such a sad topic. Being a mother, I have had the opportunity to look at this subject from a mother's perspective. Had I been in that situation, I would not have wanted my son to kill all the Tusken Raiders. However, had it been my own mother, I think I would've been finding a way to have them prosecuted.

    The problem is, on Tatooine, the law works much differently. There would've been little to no justice served for Shmi in the situation. Truthfully, there still isn't justice, even after Anakin kills them all, because NOW he's the one suffering for his actions. Something Shmi wouldn't have wanted to happen to her son, even in light of the horrible, vicious treatment she had at the hands of the Tuskens.

    Was it a case of First Blood drawn? Considering the history of the Tuskens, I'd have to say no. Considering the lawlessness of the area [the entire planet seems plagued with lawlessness], I'd have to emphatically say no.

    Anakin was in a tough spot. There would never be justice for his mother, and he knew it. He was literally, the only justice that she would ever have. But in doing so, he causes himself nearly unrepairable damage, as a jedi and as a man. There's no doubt, if he lingered on it long enough, he'd have known Shmi would've been horrified at the knowledge of what he'd done even in light of her suffering. In short, this is a very complicated situation.

    Was it wrong? I believe it was, yes. Did they deserve it? There really isn't enough information to make a good judgement call on it, other than perhaps a little common sense. Logic tells most of us in our guts --that that kind of justice is only justifiable if you won't mind if the same thing happens to you and yours someday. Most of us know this is not a scenario we would want repeated against our own families and because of this alone, we would not condone Anakin's actions.

    But would we do the same as he did, were we in his shoes? I think that's where GL has got us all to rights -- you just don't know what you would do yourself, until faced with the situation. Some of us are sure we would just wipe out the entire camp. Others are sure they would not. Still others would at least would leave the "innocents" alive and kill only those who were guilty. But let's look at his situation, logically, for a moment:

    -The tent is smack in a village of sworn enemies. The Tuskens would immediately attack him if they knew he was there and in fact, had the scene played out, would've been shown trying to mow him down for even being there in the first place, regardless of whether he was hurting them or not.

    -There would be no way he could seek out those responsible. He'd be emersed in battle the minute they saw him in their camp, and it would most likely not stop until it was clearly obvious that he was going to win. By then, a goodly portion of them would already be dead, including any women or children who might've tried to get involved at that point.

    -There's no justice in his decision, not for him, not for Shmi and not for the Tuskens. He shouldn't have attempted to kill those who were not attacking him [et.al. children, any women, any men]. But he did, most likely because he would never be able to ascertain which of them were responsible--and so he killed them all. There's no way to justify the death of infants and children so small they couldn't hoist a gaffi stick. But without parents to protect them, they'd die of starvation and thirst. It was a no-win scenario the moment he walked out of the tent.

    Sadly, the entire thing could've been prevented had any of the people involved, from the Tuskens to the Jedi to Anakin, had a little more foresight.

    A very sad part of the story. :(
  25. namaalika Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 1
    I have been avoiding this thread but I must post. Herclarode: That is just plain ridiculous. No one can predict what would have happened if America had not been conquested by Europeans. Native Americans may have developed advanced technology on their own. The ideology that lead to WW 2 may never become as powerful as it did. It's all speculation and it is another heavily issue laden thread.

    He wasn't right to kill little Tusken children. By the way, what are Tuskens? Are they human? I looked in the AOTC picture book thingy and it said that they have to cover their skin.

    The argument that the child will grow up to be like the parent doesn't work either, unless you have no VALUE for INNOCENT LIFE. The fact is those children were INNOCENT and they still had a chance to grow up as innocent. Throughout history, societies have often wiped out their enemies. But there has also been a tradition of adopting/incorporating the children of enemies into one's own tribe. This was actually one solution that occurred in the United States with the Nat. American Indian population. While I don't condone what this country did (taking native American children away from their families and forcing them to speak only English and become Americanized), I do believe it's a better solution than absolute annihilation (which is what Nat. Am. Indians faced in this country at one point.) As for the Tusken situation, this was improbable but it was a option as opposed to massacre. Yes the children would lose their culture and families, but not their lives. The lessor of 2 evils.

    Also I didn't want to mention this, but that's how those terrorist feel about us. You live in America so you are guilty by association. Once again a completely ridiculous argument.

    Ok so Anakin probably had to kill them some of them in self-defense when you think about it. They are a fierce people and the women and children probably did try to kill him. Another thing to take into consideration is that they did kill 24 out of 30 men. But he did overdue it because of his anger. The fact that they probably fought back only helps his cause a little, but jeez, he could have just kicked one of those little kids. I mean if it were me I probably would go into a rage as well. I may even kill some kids and women while in that rage. But a crying scared child would throw me back into sanity. Furthermore anyone who has studied fighting styles should know better. I mean Anakin's life has been Jedi for 10 years and he does this.

    Nunquam -- I feel you, that's what GL intended and the folks here who completely believe that Anakin was justified seem to be missing the point of the Light vs Dark side thing. Also if you read the articles they talk about how Anakin is still very immature and his actions were that of an immature teen, so go figure.

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