Anakin - what is your stance on his stance (good/evil)?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Jedi Greg Maddux, Jun 5, 2005.

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  1. Jedi Greg Maddux Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 1999
    star 6
    What's the verdict? Is he the penultimate villain in the SW universe, or is he the tragic hero, or what?

    Even after all the horrible attrocities he committed in ROTS I still can't bring myself to consider him the 'bad guy'. He's rebellious, conflicted, and misguided, but throughout the movie all he wants to do is do what's right - end the Clone War, bring peace to the galaxy, and prevent his wife from dying. All noble causes, yet all the while he was perverted by Palpatine's poisonous spiels. It's because of his close friendship with Palpatine that he becomes distrustful of the Jedi Order (would he have felt the same way if Palpy didn't feel so threatened?) and is quick to accuse anyone of not honoring the Jedi Code, or asks him to do something that is dishonorable.

    I think his heart is in the right place throughout the movie, and even after he lays waste to the Jedi Council and the Separatist group in Mustafar, you can tell he feels much sorrow and remorse for what he's done, but he knew he had to do it, believing it was all in the name of peace and justice.

    Palpatine has made him uber-paranoid and cynical, he choked his own wife for crying out loud. But Padme forgave him, as she could sense that Anakin possessed a good soul. When Anakin learned of Padme's death we all knew that he was screwed, he was forever bound to Palpatine's servitude. And the Return of the Jedi line, "I must obey my master", is all the more profound and meaningful.
  2. vikingjedi1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 2
    I think he was a monster who used excuses to cover his desire for power. He killed billions of people to achieve that power.

    When he tried to justify his actions by thinking he was saving Padme's life and stopping Mace from breaking the Jedi code it gave him a way out. They were just a cover for his true desire to rule the galaxy.

    Yoda, Padme', and Obi-wan did everything they could to stop him from turning. He wouldn't listen because it didn't fit his agenda.

    I don't believe Obi-wan was right when he said something like "Anakin no longer existed after he became Darth Vader". I see no difference. Anakin slaughtered the Sand people (children too), chopped off Dooku's head when he was helpless, and helped murder Mace before he was ever called Darth Vader.

    No hero (tragic or otherwise) purposely murders innocent children.
  3. Latorski Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 14, 2002
    star 4
    I kinda agree with both of you. I'm fully aware of all the evil things he does, and I agree part of his motivation is power (I believe Palpatine is accurate when he says Anakin "has always yearned for more than the life of a simple Jedi" or something like that). He's extremely ambitious but I think he also wants to save Padme, destroy Palpatine and eventually fix everything. He's also naive, confused and conflicted and doesn't know how to wield his enormous powers. Its really sad how Palpatine manipulates him. The worst part of it all is that Anakin knows he's doing the wrong thing but thinks its for the greater good. It's painful to watch him dig himself into a deeper hole as he comes to each decision.

    I know he's evil but I also feel I understand him to a certain degree. That doesn't excuse his actions but it makes me feel for him. I can't help but see him from Luke and Padme's point of view. Suited Vader's few words confirmed that feeling for me, and I doubt I'll ever look at OT Darth Vader the same way again.
  4. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    He had the chance to be a hero, but blew it. After the fall, he's definitely evil, even if his original motives, which got twisted around, were good.



    Darth Vader is evil
    /LM
  5. JediPrincessKas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    From my Livejournal post on 5/21/05:

    I refuse to believe that Anakin is Darth Vader. I've seen his fall and transformation on the big screen 3 times already, and I still refuse to believe it. Obi-Wan doesn't fight Vader on Mustafar, he's dueling with Anakin. It's Anakin who gets the mask lowered onto him, and it's Anakin who asks about Padme once the suit is on. I mean, it is to me. And I don't think I'll believe Vader is Vader in the OT either! He'll always be Anakin to me now. GAH! I don't know what I think, this movie has me all confused!

    And I think I still feel this way. I haven't seen the movie again since that post (hopefully I'll go again soon), so there's been nothing to change my mind. It's hard to truly believe this character became so agonizingly evil, especially one that I came to like a lot. :(
  6. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    One thing I tried doing when watching the OT...in the scenes with Darth Vader, imagine it is Hayden Christensen acting out the part, not guy with the helmet and suit. That helped me some.

    I expect that those of us who grew up watching the OT might have a hard time buying that it is Anakin under the suit. Future generations will have a better and easier time of it.
  7. origjedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2001
    star 3
    I've done the same thing, storm, while I watch the OT as well. I try to picture Anakin in the suit. An older version of course, but still him. I recalled his "bring peace and order to the galaxy as father and son" line when he tell Luke this in ESB right after he chops off Luke's hand. I remember him saying this in ROTS as well, constantly convincing himself he's doing it "for the good of the galaxy, the republic".

    I understand what Jedi Greg Maddux is saying and agree with him to a point, but in the end Anakin still has what makes this Saga what it is: Choices. He believes in good but it doesn't take much for him to decide that "good" isn't good enough, there must be more. Yes, Palps is constantly whispering in his ear, but it is up to Anakin to listen to him, Palps never forces him to listen until he throws in the "I can save Padme" deal that I'm sure Palps never intended to do. He still doesn't have to listen to Palps, Yoda gave him the advice about his nightmares he needed. He was just so obsessed with cheating death it absorbed him, among other things. He didn't have to chop off Mace's hand, he could have chopped off Sidious' hands instead since he knew he was the Sith lord. Palps wouldn't have been able to use his lightning or wield a lightsaber and could have told Mace, "Look Master, he has been incapacitated, you and I can handle him now, he is no longer a threat. He can now be tried for his crimes". His fear of losing his mother and then Padme kept the evil side alive inside of him.
  8. Lexi Host of Quick-Games

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2002
    star 4
    When I was really young, I had a hard time watching OT because I was so scared of Darth Vader and thought he was pure evil. Then PT came and showed a new side of him.

    The choices Anakin makes are wrong in the big picture, but in the moment, he believes it's right. Many of the things are unforgiveable (i.e killing Younglings) but he convinces himself that it's for a greater cause and that he can bring peace to the galaxy.

    Vader's desire for power and controll and his obsession with peace gets too big and he hides the Anakin that couldn't save his mother or Padmé, deep inside of him. I still think he's evil in OT but now I can also feel sympathy for him and agree with Padmé and Luke that there is still good in him, somewhere behind that black helmet.
  9. Blyte_the_Noghri Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2003
    star 1
    I think Anakin begins as good. He tries to make choices that are the "right" choices, but then he begins to feel that the only "right" choices are ones that benefit him. (ie-Choose to save Padme regardless of how many other people must die in the process) He begins down a slippery slope that changes him completely. He still thinks he is doing the "right" thing, but his perception is completely warped. He is evil totally when he "makes a deal with the devil" for his own selfish gain--saving Padme. What I like about the story is that no matter how far down the dark side he has gone, there is still a chance at redemption. You do not have to finish walking down the wrong path. You can turn around and find the light side. I believe your actions show who you are. So he is definitely evil, when he "righteously" believes murdering children is the "right" thing. In AOTC, his act of murdering the women and children tusken raiders was evil, but he felt regret and sorrow and fear for committing the act. He acted out of pure emotion in the moment--it happens to us all at some point (especially if you have kids). However, he is pure evil when he slaughters the younglings, thinking it is the "right" thing to do. It makes me marvel at how naive Luke is when believes Vader has good in him, he has no clue how dark Vader was. But he was right, Vader eventualy saw the light. When he saw that his path would lead to more death and pain for those he loved--Luke and Leia, it finally hit him that he had been wrong and he turned back to redemption. Beautiful story!!

    Sorry about the rambling.
  10. Ghost_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2003
    star 5
    Anakin thinks his causes are noble, but they are not. He is doing everything out of his own personal greed and ainsecurities. He knows he is powerful, but he does not feel he is powerful enough, and will do anything to become more powerful. It as if Donald Trump started shaking down lemonade stands, just to get more money. Anakin desire to have more power, causes him to choose the path of the darkside. He wants power, and will stop at nothing to acchieve it. He is evil.
  11. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    I think he's a good guy, with some bad character flaws (too much ambition, not enough patience). Palpatine twists those flaws.

    Someone posted in another thread, Palpatine just needs that door to open a bit to take control of Anakin. Once he stops Mace, Palpatine has the keys to open that door.

    I think what the PT shows is that Anakin is a good guy, that's less than perfect, with HUMAN flaws, who gets manipulated by the greatest manipulator in the GFFA. I think this PT showed much more of Palpatine manipulating Anakin than I expected.
  12. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think he was every really 'good' at all. He was self-centered and selfish and a liar and disobedient pretty much right from the start. If you watch TPM again, you can see how he's pretty much stalking Padme the whole time, just trying to impress her. Every act of 'good' that he does is in some way to impress or help or protect Padme, nothing more. Their 'chance' meeting on the street with Sebulba? Coincidence that Anakin was there, or was he following Padme? Stalker! He also convinces Qui-Gon to lie to Watto, and beats up Greedo in the deleted scene.

    In AOTC he disobeys Obi-Wan and the Council repeatedly. He thinks only of himself and his mother and Padme. He commits a horrible mass murder and then gloats about it.

    He does heroic things for the side of good, but that does not make him good. I think all along, he was a bad person trying very hard to be good, but failing. Finally he gave into his selfish desires, which led him to become evil to his core.

    Even at the end, his final act was no more than what he'd been doing his whole life - killing someone who threatens a loved one. His 'redemption' is brought about by the taking of a life.
  13. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    You find me one 19 year old that isn't self-centered.

    I think that's a big point of the prequels, and what yoda is trying to make. He has human issues. Attachment, ego, ambition. Problems every human being has, to varying degrees. None of these on their own are bad, but left uncontrolled (or manipulated) and they can be used for bad causes.

    But jedi can't have these faults, because of the enormous power they carry around. That's why they have strict rules on who can be a jedi, and when they must be trained from.

    That's my belief at least. That he was a good person, a flawed good person nonetheless, who wasn't ready for the power and responsibility he had. And all these combined to make him succeptible, and the emperor then did his work.

    And I disagree. His redemption wasn't murder. It was sacrifice. The nobility in his move didn't come from killing the emperor. It came from knowing that he was sacrificing himself to do so.
  14. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, I agree that most 19 year olds show some of the same behaviors of Anakin, but he takes it to a whole new level. Do most 19 year olds murder a village of creatures? Do most 19 year olds attempt to single handedly attack a great Sith Lord against the orders of their master? Do most 19 year olds defy the direct orders of the Jedi Council?

    They are the typical behaviors of a teenager, but multiplied tenfold. And that's why I love the prequels now more than ever...because Lucas made us like and root for a guy who really didn't ever deserve to be rooted for. I feel like I and II should have been called "I'm Going To Hide Adolf Hitler Right In Front Of Your Face And You Won't Even Know It!"
  15. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    storm, I can't believe you're subscribing to the mini-Hitler philosophy. That is exactly the opposite of what George was trying to say. Everything that has ever come out of his mouth about Anakin is that he was a good guy, a tragic hero who should be pitied. The tragedy in a tragic hero story comes from the loss of potential. He could have become the greatest Jedi ever, he could have brought balance to the Force, but due to certain circumstances and influence, as well as a tragic flaw, he blows it, in the biggest way possible. Anakin fits the mould perfectly. He was never intended to be a mini-Hitler, just a guy who made some horrible mistakes, and looking at them individually, they all come from very human emotions and reactions. Anakin is not the epitome of evil, he is the everyman. Palpatine represents true evil in this story. By no means is Vader good, he's a traitor and a murderer, but unlike Palpy or Hitler, we see and actuallly understand what drove him to it. That isn't to say we agree with it or can even forgive him for it, but we understand it. That's a huge difference.
  16. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Well, in some ways Adolf Hitler was a hero before he fell to the dark side...he was a normal person with a difficult childhood, he proudly served his country as a soldier in World War I and was even awarded a medal. He dreamed of being a painter. He was not a nice person, not a good person, but he was not evil at first. But at some point he became so dark and twisted that he became completely and fully evil. He grew to hate the rules and regulations of society, and craved power and control. Eventually he tried to purge the world of those he blamed for his sorrows. How is that any different than Anakin? I don't think it is. I think the story of Adolf Hitler very much echoes that of Anakin Skywalker, minus the final redemption. How is the evil that is Anakin Skywalker any different than the evil we experience in real life? Do evil people commit evil in every moment of their lives, in every decision they make? No - they love, they care, they have hopes and dreams.

    I think you're being far too kind to Anakin if you consider him to be a good person with a flaw. He may fit the definition of a tragic hero, but his impact on the galaxy and those around him is horrifically evil. The character of Darth Vader in ROTS is far more terrifying and horrible than I'd ever imagined prior to this film. He kills in cold blood, he kills for love, he kills for king and country. He is a monster.

    I think that's the genius of this saga...it shows how a semi-normal person becomes a horrible monster. Anakin is not an innocent and sweet boy/teen/man with a flaw, he's someone that's a real mess and needed help, help which he never got. He didn't all of a sudden make a mistake and become evil, it was building and growing from his youth. The Jedi let him get away with murder (literally!) and no one ever stood up to him. Thus he became a blasphemy.

    Serial killers love people, have normal childhoods. Ruthless dictators grow up with a mommy and toys, but that doesn't make them any less evil. Anakin Skywalker is a murderer and a back stabber and a wife beater. It doesn't get any more evil than that. Because George is a genius he made us feel sorry for Anakin in AOTC, when we should have been crying out for him to be thrown in jail or executed for genocide. I mean come on! He admitted to the murder of women and children! Even his wife was too dumb to do anything about it!

    Everyone evildoer in history has an excuse. That does not make it OK.
  17. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    " Everyone evildoer in history has an excuse. That does not make it OK. "

    I don't think anyone's saying it's ok.

    I think most people are saying he TURNED bad. That in fact, Vader was very much bad. I think where the disagreement comes is before he actually turns to Vader.

    "Do most 19 year olds murder a village of creatures? Do most 19 year olds attempt to single handedly attack a great Sith Lord against the orders of their master? Do most 19 year olds defy the direct orders of the Jedi Council?"

    Well, I'd like to see how most 19 year olds react to their mother being tortured and murdered. I certainly don't know how I'd react. And guessing at this point is ridiculous if you've never gone through it.

    As for the other two, it's not the reaction that's atypical, but the scale. Which is what I side. He wasn't ready for his power/responsibility. Are most 19 year olds too emotional/reactionary/reckless, and in their mind invincible? Yes. Same reaction, different scale.

    Do most 19 year olds rebel against authority? Probably. Difference is, we're skipping school or talking back to teachers. Again, it's a matter of scope, what position we're placed in, if we're ready. But the reaction isn't completely different.
  18. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Well before he is named Darth Vader, he was a powerful Jedi, but a bad Jedi. Let's start with disobedience in AOTC:

    1) completely out of line with Obi-Wan while trying to impress Padme in her apartment, during the beginning of AOTC "Protection is a job for local security, investigation is implied. Etc" So bad that it causes everyone around to be uncomfortable.

    2) flaunts the very important Jedi rule of attachments, pretty much lying to Padme about it on the refugee transport, then hitting on her and making out with her on Naboo

    3) causes a scene in the Queen's throne room regarding who is in charge. again, those around are left feeling uncomfortable.

    4) disobeys a direct order of the Council and drags Padme along to Tatooine

    5) again disobeys the Council by flying off to Geonosis, Padme just gave him an easy out on that one

    6) causes a scene in the transport when Padme falls out on Geonosis, giving in to his personal attachments so strongly that Yoda can sense it

    7) disobeys Obi-Wan and attacks Count Dooku, resulting in a disorganized attack that leads to their defeat and the loss of his arm

    8) completely disregards a sacred Jedi rule and gets married

    For those events, he should have been disciplined, most likely thrown out of the Jedi Order. If he was not the Chosen One, he would most certainly have been thrown out of the Order.

    Now, these are not 'evil' acts but they are acts of lying, deceit, selfishness, and recklessness. I would say that they DO make him a 'bad' person, but not an evil person. When you throw in the slaughter of a village of Tuskens, I'd say the boy is pretty much fallen before the credits roll on AOTC.
  19. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I pretty much agree with SixEagle on this. It's all about scope and taking reality and magnifiying to its most potent level, so it's almost impossible to compare the events with real life. The emotions are based in reality, we can undertand them, but they're almost impossibly heightened. It's all part of George's vision.

    storm, you're still missing the point. George's intention was never to trick us into liking a murderer in AOTC, he's not a genius for doing it because he never intended to. You are not seeing it the same way he is, which is your perogative, though I vehemently disagree with you.

    Hitler and Anakin are not that similiar. He was never considered a tragic hero. Anakin is far similiar to one of Shakespeare's characters than any real life individual. That comparison is more fair. When people tells us stories of Hitler they never go into his difficult childhood, or about him being a war hero. Star Wars goes out of the way to show what a good person Anakin was before the fall, George spent millions of dollars and nearly 3 movies trying to do just that. And the redemption issue cannot be clouded over. Anakin is redeemed. He is forgiven by his son and by the Force. That is such a key element, even Shakespeare's tragic heros aren't given the chance for redemption. And no one ever calls for Hitler's redemption.

    How is the evil that is Anakin Skywalker any different than the evil we experience in real life? Do evil people commit evil in every moment of their lives, in every decision they make? No - they love, they care, they have hopes and dreams.

    In Anakin we see explicitly that he loves, cares and has dreams. We are never shown this side of Hitler. I hate this comparison.

    I think you're being far too kind to Anakin if you consider him to be a good person with a flaw. He may fit the definition of a tragic hero, but his impact on the galaxy and those around him is horrifically evil... He is a monster.

    I never said his actions were excusable, they're not. But if he's such a horrible monster than what is Palpatine to you? He is the real monster, killing without discrimation, killing for the joy of it and responsible for the deaths of millions. In ROTS Anakin never takes pleasure from the kill, he hesistates, he's cries over it. He still does it, but it's not simply that he's become a murdering lunatic. In the OT we barely see him kill at all, and when he does it's all with a clinical air, even Obi-Wan. He's a total pawn to Palpatine, and I'm not making excuses for him. We could never hope to understand Palpatine's motives, just like Hitler's for that matter (whether that's just because we don't know him "personally"), but with Anakin we are meant to understand exactly his motives, the exact situations which cause him to do what he does, even though they're undeniably wrong, they are meant to be understood.

    Everyone evildoer in history has an excuse. That does not make it OK.

    No one is saying it is ok. I am saying that there has to be something in him still worth redeeming, since that is the entire point of the Saga. Which means he isn't meant to be seen as the cold-blooded, one dimensional monster you're making him out to be, or else isn't the entire Saga cheapened by his redemption?
  20. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    We'll just have to disagree then, storm.

    With the exception of the Tuskens (which is a situation none of us can relate to), you're referencing mistakes/insubordinations that most of us have done ourselves to some degree. The fact that he's on-screen, the center of attention and the savior of the universe doesn't change those mistakes.
  21. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    In Anakin we see explicitly that he loves, cares and has dreams. We are never shown this side of Hitler. I hate this comparison.

    Hitler had a wife. He had dogs. He had a family. He had dreams of being an artist. He committed the most atrocious acts ever known to man, but he was simply a child who grew up and made bad decisions. Nothing more to it. Same as Anakin. Just because history only remembers the monstrous side of Hitler doesn't mean he wasn't at some point the beloved child of a mother, same as Anakin. He was not always a mass murderer and war criminal. He started out as someone's child. I see no difference between the two, other than the fact that we know Anakin's story growing up, and we don't know Hitler's.

    The beauty of this film (this saga) is that it demystifies evil. Evil is not something that touches you as a child, that predestines you to be a monster. Evil is a choice. Anakin made that choice, just as Hitler did, just as Jeffrey Dahmer did, just as any great evildoer ever did. Anakin Skywalker is no different.

    I am saying that there has to be something in him still worth redeeming, since that is the entire point of the Saga. Which means he isn't meant to be seen as the cold-blooded, one dimensional monster you're making him out to be, or else isn't the entire Saga cheapened by his redemption?

    Actually, I view ROTJ very differently now. Is he redeemed? I don't know. I don't think so. He has done the galaxy a great service by killing Palpatine, but I don't think he is redeemed. His son can love him, but the galaxy can not. If he had lived, the Alliance would have tried him as a war criminal and executed him, I suspect. Prior to ROTS, I thought he could be redeemed. But I don't think a child murderer and wife choker can really truly be redeemed. Don't forget that he was also party to the destruction of an entire planet in ANH. I find the end of ROTJ all the more emotional, because now I know Vader HAD to die. He knew it, too. He could not be forgiven for his life and his choices. He gave his son and the galaxy one beautiful gift before he died, but he was not redeemed. He knew there was good in him, as did Luke, but he also knew he could not be forgiven. So now the ending of ROTJ is all the more sad to me, but in a good way. It is 'redemption' of a sort, but most certainly not forgiveness.

    I understand that Anakin is a character born of Shakespeare and great myth, but I prefer to view him through the lens of reality. In the lens of reality he's a bad person before ROTS, and I don't think he can be truly redeemed in ROTJ. What if one of Hitler's SS leaders had picked him up and thrown him into a reactor pit just as Soviet troops were approaching the bunker? And what if the only reason the SS man turned on Hitler was that Hitler had a gun to the head of the SS man's son. Would that SS leader be forgiven? Even though he had murdered millions of Jews? I think not. One right does not excuse countless wrongs.

    With the exception of the Tuskens (which is a situation none of us can relate to), you're referencing mistakes/insubordinations that most of us have done ourselves to some degree.

    I don't agree. I doubt that any of us have had a situation or job of the importance that he did. What if a military officer acted as he did? I suspect he'd be court martialed. I think you're downplaying the seriousness of his actions.

    In the OT we barely see him kill at all, and when he does it's all with a clinical air, even Obi-Wan. He's a total pawn to Palpatine, and I'm not making excuses for him.

    I agree 100%. That's why I think ROTS changes everything. Darth Vader is FAR more evil than I had ever believed. If I had to pick a foe to face in a dark alley, I'd choose the helmeted guy from the OT over Hayden Christensen any day. Vader from the OT might show me some mercy and reason, but the guy from ROTS was frightening. Props to Hayden and George for blowing my expectations out of the water.

    P.S. Love this debate. Exactly the reason why the 3NS has been a great p
  22. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    " I don't agree. I doubt that any of us have had a situation or job of the importance that he did"

    That's my point though. If the Army makes a kid it's highest ranking officer, and the kid isn't mature enough to handle it, is the kid a bad person? If sony makes a 19 year old their CEO, adn he spends his time playing video games, dn't you go "well, duh"?


    We could go through a laundry list of real-world heroes who had character flaws. You don't think Patton was a hothead? FDR had mistresses. Very rarely do you find a non-conflicted hero. But IMO the things you listed are common human flaws that don't show a bad person. Disobeying authority, showing off and having an ego are something a lot of everyday people, and people regarded as heros, have been accused of.

    I think some of these events you described should have thrown up some red flags, and hinted at some flaws he had, but do not make him a bad person. It is my belief that without Palpatine's manipulation, Anakin wouldn't have turned. And that's why I think he's a flawed person that eventually does some bad things, but not someone who's bad in and of himself.
  23. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, I definitely agree that Anakin was thrown into the deep end of the pool by the Jedi without knowing how to swim. Anakin is evil for sure, but I realize he's not the only one to blame. And I think that it is possible that without Palpatine, he may never have fallen. But at the same time he may have grown powerful and craved more and more power. We'll never know.

    I guess I simply can not get past the events of ROTS and reconcile them with a good person. The dark depths that he sinks to are beyond what I believe someone can be forgiven for. The strange thing is, when I got home from the premiere, I had this big glossy ticket with the official ROTS artwork on it. I couldn't even look at the picture of Hayden, I was so sickened by it. I had to turn it over.

    I think if he had become a warrior for Palpatine, challenging Jedi and killing them in combat, helping to cement power through ruthless politics, he could be forgiven. He can be forgiven for helping to kill Mace, for trying to kill Obi-Wan. But killing children (in TWO movies) and nearly killing his wife are acts I can not forgive. Darth Vader in the OT commits acts of stylish, fantasy violence and evil. Darth Vader in ROTS commits acts of cruel, diabolical, real world evil.

    Maybe in a few years I'll feel less strongly about it, but for now his acts are so dark that I can't see the character as anything but evil to the core.
  24. marajadebean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2005
    star 2
    Not really a chime in one way or the other but I just thought of right now how it is ironic, somewhat fitting that Vader's sacrifice in the end was slightly similiar to Mace's in ROTS, the exact point in which Anakin became Vader. Just wanted to say that.
  25. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6

    But his act of redemption isn't killing Palpatine, it's sacrificing himself to save Luke. It was a completely unselfish act. He didn't bring the Force into balance because he was trying to, he just did it because he believed it would save his son's life. Which is totally the difference between Anakin before the fall and after. Perhaps it's not personal redemption, though Luke forgives him, maybe he can forgive himself, thus letting himself die. But it IS redemption in the eyes of the Force. He brought it into balance like was supposed to all along, and the Force welcomes him back, as shown when he becomes a Force ghost. It completely parallels every major religion.

    But I don't think a child murderer and wife choker can really truly be redeemed. Don't forget that he was also party to the destruction of an entire planet in ANH.

    Don't forget that Padme forgave him. She knew there was still good in him. And before you start shouting about battered wife syndrome, remember these movies are not that complicated. Nothing she ever says can be taken any other way but at face value. Padme has to believe it because she passes that exact phrase to her son Luke, who uses it as his mantra in the OT, and he doesn't even know where he got it from. It's brilliant of Lucas to do that, doesn't remember his mother indeed. And if she was just saying it as a "battered wife" it would cheapen the entire meaning of the phrase.

    The Alderaan thing is ambiguous, and it's meant to be. We could argue up and down who's fault Alderaan is, but it is Tarkin who's really behind it. This is where we see what a pawn Vader really is. Of course, he's retains some responsibility... though it's rather interesting that he can be party to the destruction of a planet full of faceless beings, but can't bring himself to kill Leia directly.
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