Anakin - what is your stance on his stance (good/evil)?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Jedi Greg Maddux, Jun 5, 2005.

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  1. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    I, strangely enough, agree, alot, with both RS and Storm.

    When watching TPM and AotC again, i too have noticed that Anakin, very much, wants to be a very good person - but his good acts are nearly always countered with a selfish streak (long post warning, long post warning :p ). Here are acts that caught my attention.

    - He wants to help Qui-Gon, Padme and Jar Jar to get off Tatooine...

    ...But he also wants to race in his new pod. I don't blame him, he's a 9 year old kid who acts, does and says what he wants - but he's very tricky and clever in the way he does it. He knows how to play both sides of the fence, how to get his mother and Qui-Gon to agree with him - all the while getting Watto to do the same thing.

    It's a very good act, indeed. But there was a catch, he's not "evil" in the least, not for a single milliparsec - but he's no perfect angel either.

    - Blowing up the Trade Federation ship.

    It started out very selfless - he wanted to save Padme and the guards from the Droidekas. Then he wants to help the fighters in space, but the minute he enters the fray he's just having fun. He's spinning around, blowing wildly around him and laughing while he's doing it - once he's there, he doesn't even bother with actually helping anymore.

    The results are incredible and he was incredibly courageous for going to help everyone - i'm not going to hold this one against him in a negative light, even after what i've said. The fact that he went after them is, to me, more important than his attentionspan, especially considering his age. Very noble of a 9 year old.

    - The Lovestory.

    He's in love with Padme. He's not a stalker, i actually think to call him a stalker here is an insult to all the people who actually have had the burden of having a stalker on their backs. But his attitude isn't entirely healthy either, of course this is an attribute to him being a man and we, basically, are morons around women. I'm not going to argue on whether there was chemistry, whether Padme really loved him or anything of that - this is about Anakin.

    I think the biggest aspect here is that he, when he's with her, has no qualms about disregarding the Jedi for her. After RotS, this is a major eye-opener for me, never once is he conflicted about what he wants here. He wants to be the best Jedi ever, he wants to be a better Jedi than his hero Obi-Wan and he wants to be acknowledged and respected by his fellow Jedi...........but he also wants Padme. And as i've said before, he only gives a single hint that he's conflicted about the confliction there.

    That's when he agrees with Obi-Wan and heads off to fight Dooku instead of going after Padme, i'd have liked for more scenes like this where Anakin's actually seen as being torn between duty and booty. But RotS still gave me more than enough of this. Otherwise it's constantly Padme who's the conflicted one, and i'm still suprised that they got married at the end - they knew it could end up destroying their lives, and sadly, it did. Even worse, it ended up destroying the galaxy too.

    I'm not blaming them for getting married, i'm happy they found joy, love and comfort in each other. But it is suprising, and i wonder if Padme thinks she can change Anakin for the better. It wouldn't be fair to use RotS to say she didn't, or that their decisions were "wrong" -

    The Tusken slaughter speaks for itself, Anakins reaction speaks for itself - he knows damn well that he did something horrible and his guilt is his punishment, the fact that he comes to the conclusion that he should become too powerful for this to happen again has always been disturbing.

    RotS and the OT mostly speak for themselves too, and are still too "fresh" for me to actually draw final conclusions from.

    One act is worth taking note of though:

    - The Return of the Jedi.

    I don't think Anakin can be redeemed either, not after the things he's done. But with RotS and George's comments, i think it's clear that even he wasn't going for this. There's no way this single act could ever right all
  2. beedubew Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 2
    I think I come down on Storm's side in this discussion but to an extent. Anakin wasn't initialy pure evil, but he sure chose a selfish and evil path. I believe ones actions dictate what you are. Evil actions = evil person. I don't think Hitler was initially pure evil, but he chose a selfish and evil path. Same result.

    [RebelScum77] But it IS redemption in the eyes of the Force. He brought it into balance like was supposed to all along, and the Force welcomes him back, as shown when he becomes a Force ghost. It completely parallels every major religion. [RebelScum77]

    So, could Hitler be sitting in Heaven if he truly felt sorry and was apologetic for his sins right before he died? You don't know. I don't know. That is between Hitler and God (or whatever higher power, if any, you believe in). If what you say is true and the Force forgave Anakin, couldn't God forgive Hitler?

    I liked Obi-Frans' argument that Anakin is redeemed in the eyes of the Force, but ain't nobody alive other than Luke going to forgive him for his evil deeds (EU aside). All of us saw how disgusted Leia was at the thought that Vader was Luke's father. Those already joined with the Force that will forgive him may be limited to Padme, Yoda, and Obi-wan.

    I think the one thing I thank Lucas for is how he has increased my ability to understand a "certain point of view" all things. From Anakin's point of view, the Jedi were evil and that justified his actions to himself. From Hitler's point of view the Jews, communists, etc were evil and that justified his actions to himself.



    This is a great discussion.
  3. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    So, could Hitler be sitting in Heaven if he truly felt sorry and was apologetic for his sins right before he died? You don't know. I don't know. That is between Hitler and God (or whatever higher power, if any, you believe in). If what you say is true and the Force forgave Anakin, couldn't God forgive Hitler?

    If we're talking the Catholic religion here, then if Hitler did honestly take the initiative to repent for his sins before he died then yes, he'd be sitting in Heaven right now. I don't believe he did so. I'm not Catholic myself so I won't make a personal comment on that. The Force is a bit different, as it is based on an amalgam of different religions/philosophies. The difference between the Force and the Christian concept of God is that the Force isn't an entity, it doesn't judge, it simply IS. Because Anakin fulfilled his destiny and brought balance to the Force he is welcomed back. It has nothing to do with sacrificing himself specifically... of course, the only way for Anakin to bring balance was to sacrifice himself, so it happened anyway. The Force could have set it up that way, but only as a means of "righting" itself.

    I liked Obi-Frans' argument that Anakin is redeemed in the eyes of the Force, but ain't nobody alive other than Luke going to forgive him for his evil deeds (EU aside). All of us saw how disgusted Leia was at the thought that Vader was Luke's father. Those already joined with the Force that will forgive him may be limited to Padme, Yoda, and Obi-wan.

    Oh, I agree with this definitely. Leia eventually does forgive him in the EU, even naming one of her children after him. It would be unrealistic for her to immediately forgive him. She's sort of like her father that way, oddly enough. Whether or not we as viewers forgive him is entirely personal.
  4. RurouniKJS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2005
    star 2
    Anakin Skywalker is a murderer and a back stabber and a wife beater. It doesn't get any more evil than that.

    Dude. That may be my next sig. =D=

    Still, I think I come down on the side of Anakin redeemed in the end. There's no way he can make amends for his crimes. But for redemption, the main thing that matters is repentance. That's what we saw in him in ROTJ.
  5. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Do you really think he had changed? I don't. I see that he was doing the same thing he had always done from AOTC onwards - kill those who threaten his loved ones. Palpatine threatened Luke, so he killed him. Nothing more than that.

    I think he was a one track man with a one track mind, and it was only by a twist of fate that his unique ability to murder in the name of love allowed him to save the galaxy. It is like his whole life was leading up to that moment. Whereas in every other situation in his life it was WRONG to kill in the name of love, in this one unique moment it was RIGHT to kill in the name of love. Anakin had not changed, it was the circumstances around him that changed.
  6. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I think he was a one track man with a one track mind, and it was only by a twist of fate that his unique ability to murder in the name of love allowed him to save the galaxy. It is like his whole life was leading up to that moment. Whereas in every other situation in his life it was WRONG to kill in the name of love, in this one unique moment it was RIGHT to kill in the name of love. Anakin had not changed, it was the circumstances around him that changed.

    storm that's an extremely simplified way of looking at of Anakin, and he is nothing if not one of the most complicated hero/villains put to film. The thought that he doesn't change, that it's the circumstances that do, undermines Anakin's entire character, the whole point of him. You make it sound like it just so happened that with this murder he actually did something good, as if that wasn't his intention but happenstance. As if there wasn't any good in him, he just happened to do a good thing by accident. That view just chops off a large part of his character arc. Star Wars is all about personal CHOICE. Sometime in the events of the OT Anakin begins to feel something, perhaps it starts as a curious hesistation to not kill someone, perhaps it's a weariness of the Emperor that's starting to become more than that. He's dealing with the fact that his son is alive. Does he actually love him? Does he realize a change is taking place? I could argue that Anakin doesn't kill the Emperor out of love for his son, at least not in the most literal sense. He kills him because of the potential that's there, Luke's potential. Because Anakin realizes that after all these years of the Emperor's false love, here comes someone who really does love him. A son who refuses to turn to the darkside because of him. Luke does what Anakin couldn't, in the face of the exact same choice. So he chooses to right that wrong, HIS wrong, and at the same time honoring the love that Luke and his mother had for him. The love that Anakin once felt for his unborn child. So he destroys the man responsible, and in effect killing himself- the person directly responsible. It was a completely unselfish move, not another killing in the name of love murder. It was a choice, NOT a twist of fate. It was a choice that sent him to the darkside, and it's a choice that brings him back.
  7. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    I just want to clarify. I'm not, and never intended, to say that Vader didn't become evil. He obviously did. I just think he was a guy who had good intentions and become corrupted (an entirely different discussion is how he got corrupted, IMO it's by his own ambitions, by palpatine, and by circumstances in his life RE: his mother and padme), and thus became evil.

    But in no way do I think he doesn't change in ROTJ. I don't know how that can be viewed as a selfish act (in fact, I wouldn't say him trying to save Padme or his mother was selfish either, but that's a different argument as well).

    I think sometimes we overlook some of the good he did, and had in him. I guess that's what happens when the 3 movies show before he was a jedi, then right before the war and right at the end of the war. But this was a guy who fought in a war for 3 years and pledged to the jedi for 13. He was a war hero and did do good in the world before his fall, not all entirely self centered and egotistical. But you had to show his fall in the films, so we gravitate towards that a little more.
  8. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    ^^^ I totally agree with you SixEagle, I hope that's clear.
  9. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    (in fact, I wouldn't say him trying to save Padme or his mother was selfish either, but that's a different argument as well).

    It's not him trying to save Padme that's selfish, it's the manner in which he tries that is.

    If it was truly selfless, then he'd have listened to what she wanted - which was him to tell Obi-Wan everything, and stop worrying about the dreams and get back into bed for some Jedi nookie ;). Certainly, if he truly wanted to do everything for her - he'd have gone to his best friend, instead going to the darkside for power. But he doesn't want to do everything for her, he wants to do it for himself. He doesn't say "Padme shouldn't die, she doesn't deserve it" - he says "I can't live without her".

    He's selfish because HE wants to be the one that saves her, seeing Obi-Wan in his vision scares the crap out of him and drives his jealousy further and further. That's why he's so hellbent on making sure HE has that power to save her, never bothering to notice that he did have that power - the power was to listen to Padme and her needs. Love was the only thing that could've saved her, not promises and power.

    With Shmi he was being selfish because he had a job to do - if it had been Padme who'd have suggested to go to her i'd see no problem, but Anakin decided he was going after her; whether Padme wanted to come with him or not.

    That's selfish because Padme had the most dangerous assassins gunning for her - and Anakin was her protector, a protector who was about to walk out on her for his own needs.

    The rest of your post is spot-on though.

    Do you really think he had changed? I don't. I see that he was doing the same thing he had always done from AOTC onwards - kill those who threaten his loved ones. Palpatine threatened Luke, so he killed him. Nothing more than that.

    Palpatine wasn't threatening Luke though, he was tormenting him. And even though Anakin might say he killed in the name of love, that's not true at all. He killed out of lust for power, revenge, fear and greed.

    In AotC and RotS Anakin kills under the illusion that a loved one is being threatened. The Jedi didn't threaten Padme, they threatened Anakins chance of becoming powerful enough to save her. Shmi was already "safe" in a longed for, and "grateful" death - Anakin had saved her by simply cutting off her bonds, she was "complete" and passed on. He killed the Tuskens out of revenge and anger.

    With Palpatine, Anakin finally learns the difference - he learns to let go of his fears, his anger and his lust. A claim could be made that anger and revenge played a part in killing Palpatine - but i don't believe in that, for the simple fact that Anakin is very peaceful. He has a smile on his face when the mask is removed. He doesn't have yellow eyes, a scowl or anything like that. He didn't do it for more power, he didn't do it because he "couldn't live without Luke", he didn't do it for recognition - he did it to save Lukes life.

    That's the difference, imo.

    - O_F
  10. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Eh, we'll just have to disagree then. I don't want to get into this debate, because it's a bit off topic, but he did go to the Jedi. Maybe not Obi-Wan, but he went to Yoda. And after talking with Palpatine and Yoda, I think he was convinced that the Jedi couldn't, and more importantly wouldn't even try, to help her. I don't think it had to do with him not wanting what's best for her.

    There's no doubt that the way he takes ISN'T best for her, but I think that was him being wrong, not necessarily not wanting what's best for her.

    BTW, I didn't say it was selfless, there was obviously some thought about himself. But I also don't think it was entirely selfish, because I do think he generally cared about what's best for her.

    And as for his mother, this was someone whom he hadn't seen in 10 years. I don't think it was him being selfish, because he already had been living without her. I think he feels bad, feels like it's his fault, and genuinely feels bad that she's had to go through that and couldn't enjoy the freedom he had. I don't think it was selfish at all.
  11. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    It feels like people are making excuses for not liking Anakin, I mean I certainly don't love the guy, but I think I may understand him. It's really easy to look back in hindsight at Anakin's actions and condemn him. WE can see the entire picture and he has a very narrow view of reality. Of course he isn't without major flaws but I think there's some unrealistic expectations.

    If it was truly selfless, then he'd have listened to what she wanted - which was him to tell Obi-Wan everything, and stop worrying about the dreams and get back into bed for some Jedi nookie . Certainly, if he truly wanted to do everything for her - he'd have gone to his best friend, instead going to the darkside for power. But he doesn't want to do everything for her, he wants to do it for himself. He doesn't say "Padme shouldn't die, she doesn't deserve it" - he says "I can't live without her".

    This is quite easy to say. You could as easily blame Padme for not telling Obi-Wan, she is the other half of this relationship, and she is the one who's life is at stake. And Anakin didn't run off to the dark side for power initially. He didn't know that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, and when he found out, his gut reaction was to kill him, not to accept his offer to save Padme. It wasn't until the moment that Mace was actually going to kill Sidious that Anakin made the decision that Padme was more important. And he obviously didn't mean for Mace to die, and when he did he instantly regretted it. Then he felt as if he had no choice, he would be condemned by the Jedi, so at least he could save Padme. In his mind there was no turning to Obi-Wan at that point. Should he have turned to Obi-Wan at first, probably. But the last time he did that with his mother, Obi-Wan told him that "dreams pass in time." That's a huge gamble. Obi-Wan is his best friend, but he's also a Jedi. Anakin has broken a huge rule by getting married and having a kid. But let's not forget he DID go to Yoda with a vague description. He was both scared of what would happen if the Jedi found out, and wanted to take care of the problem himself since he didn't believe they could actually help him.

    With Shmi he was being selfish because he had a job to do - if it had been Padme who'd have suggested to go to her i'd see no problem, but Anakin decided he was going after her; whether Padme wanted to come with him or not.

    Ok, call that selfish. But it's human. Clearly he's torn between Padme and his mother. But she's his mother, who he's been forbidden to see for 10 years. He is carrying a lot of guilt for that, AND he has visions that she's dying. And we don't know if he would have gone without Padme, that's impossible to say. I'm sure he would have suggested it if she hadn't, and they were pretty tight by then, he probably expected her to go with him.

    Do you really think he had changed? I don't. I see that he was doing the same thing he had always done from AOTC onwards - kill those who threaten his loved ones. Palpatine threatened Luke, so he killed him. Nothing more than that.

    *Shakes head* I'm so incredulous that people really believe it's "nothing more than that." For me, I couldn't enjoy the story of the Saga at all if I believed that Anakin was acting by rote when he saved Luke from the Emperor. It collapses his character arc and makes Luke and the audience into chumps for seeing Anakin as a Force ghost at the end of ROTJ. Lucas clearly thinks otherwise. That's in my opinion anyway.

    Palpatine wasn't threatening Luke though, he was tormenting him. And even though Anakin might say he killed in the name of love, that's not true at all. He killed out of lust for power, revenge, fear and greed.

    You really believed he killed the Emperor for power and greed? If that were true the Force would have NEVER welcomed him back. Those feelings are of the dark side. The entire point of that moment is Anakin makes the choice to do the RIGHT THING. He saves Luke's life because it's the right thing to do. And he sacrifices his own life to do so. It's t
  12. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Just to elaborate some more (slow work day ;) ).

    On selfish, I guess it depends on how you describe selfish. Was he concerned with himself? Absolutely. And I think by the time he had completely turned, he did only care about himself (after all, that's pretty much the definition of the dark side). But I define selfish as only caring about yourself. Selfless as disregarding yourself. And everything inbetween is pretty much normal. I think, at least initially up to the point where he made his decision to save palpatine and turned himself completley over to the darkside, that he was concerned with himself, but that he also cared about padme and her wellbeing. And I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

    As for going to the Jedi, I think this is where you have to take a hard look at not so much what Yoda said, but how he said it. In the OT, nearly the same situation comes up. Luke wants to run off to Bespin to save his friends, endangering what his friends are fighting for and the jedi mission. Yoda's primary message is pretty much the same. But he tells Luke things like "What your friends are fighting for will be ruined", and "always in motion the future is". Then Obi-Wan tells him that the future can change, and not even Yoda can predict it. Essentially that there is still hope. (Now, Luke still disregards the Jedi's advice and acts "selfishly", but that's, again, another discussion).

    However in ROTS, he essentially says "that's too bad, get over it. Get on with your life". To me, I think Anakin sees this as the Jedi aren't even willing to help, let alone find a solution. Had the Jedi been able to come up with a solution, I definitely think he would have listened. Otherwise he wouldn't have gone to Yoda in the first place.

    Then he goes to Palpatine, and he specifically says "Not from a Jedi". So you've got on one side the Jedi seemingly incapable of saving Padme, then on the otherside the Chancellor corroborating that the Jedi can't, or won't, be able to. I think for Anakin, in his mind, his options are pretty limited. And at this point he's consumed by that one goal.

    As for going to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's a great guy. Great Jedi. And I think he truly loves Anakin as a brother. I think he understands Anakin. But the one "fault" Obi-Wan has is that he defers to the Jedi code & the rest of the council. Even when he doesn't agree (spying on Palpatine). Even the one time he stood against the code and the council ("I will train this boy, even without the Council's approval") was really a deferrence to his Master, as Obi-Wan didn't agree with the boy being trained before Qui Qonn's death. So I doubt Anakin thought Obi-Wan's response would be any different than the one Yoda gave him.

    So no, I don't necessarily agree that he would only go to the darkside for help with Padme, because of his internal crave for power (don't get me wrong, I think he had a little more ambition than what's good for a jedi, although I think it was primarily driven for respect), but because he thought he was out of options.
  13. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    You really believed he killed the Emperor for power and greed?

    Err, i meant Anakin killing in AotC and RotS with that - i saw, too late, that it came off confusing but i figured the last paragraph in my post would clear where my stance on that was.

    I've never condemned Anakin, only his actions.

    more importantly wouldn't even try, to help her

    They didn't even know it was about her.

    I don't think it was him being selfish, because he already had been living without her. I think he feels bad, feels like it's his fault, and genuinely feels bad that she's had to go through that and couldn't enjoy the freedom he had. I don't think it was selfish at all.

    No offense, but nothing in there says why it isn't selfish. Sure he feels bad, sure he feels like it's his fault - but going off to save her is still selfish. I'm not making excuses to "condemn" Anakin at all, but it's just a selfish choice. I'm not saying he's bad or evil because of it, or that he doesn't give a **** and kicks puppies while he's at it - i'm just saying he was selfish in that instance.

    But it's not an act that condemned him for life.

    I never said it was, i merely stated why going after her was selfish - and that it was different between this situation and the end of RotJ. I'm on your side, my post was just confusing. Read it from a twisted angle and you'll see i was agreeing with you ;)

    You could as easily blame Padme for not telling Obi-Wan

    I don't think one can. Padme isn't Obi-Wans collegue, his confidant, his "brother" - sure, they're probably friends, but she has no ties to Kenobi like Anakin does, not even close to that. Not to mention that she wasn't that worried as Anakin about it, she seems to understand that "always in motion, the future is" whereas Anakin doesn't. She tells him to go to Obi-Wan for Anakins sake, moreso then hers.

    And he obviously didn't mean for Mace to die

    He doesn't? When Palpatine is frying Mace, Anakin turns off his lightsaber and averts his eyes - he had a pretty large window, no pun intended, to save Mace if he didn't want him to die.

    I agree that he didn't go there to kill Mace, i agree that it broke his heart to turn on Mace, i agree that he feels horrible for turning on Mace - but he knows someones going to die, Sidious or Mace. And he chooses Mace, if he didn't mean for him to die then he'd have blocked his saber - not cut off his hand and turn away from him.

    But let's not forget he DID go to Yoda with a vague description.

    True, but as you say - it was a vague description, at best. Surely we can agree that this was not what Padme had in mind when she told him that "Obi-Wan could help". She wanted Kenobi to know, she has always (including EU) wanted him to know. All Anakin did was hand out a vague description, and in turn he received a very direct and general answer. If he was a 100% focused on just saving Padme, he'd have told Yoda or Kenobi. But he doesn't just want to save Padme, he wants the power to save Padme.

    That's a tremendous difference, that's all i was saying. I'm not saying he doesn't care about Padme, i've never said that. I'm saying that he didn't do everything he could to save her, he did everything he could to get the power to save her.

    Ok, call that selfish. But it's human.

    Of course it is, that's what makes it work. That's what makes people understand and love it, i'm not even saying i'm above Anakin and i wouldn't have done the same (i luv mums) - all i'm saying is that it was a selfish choice.

    However in ROTS, he essentially says "that's too bad, get over it. Get on with your life". To me, I think Anakin sees this as the Jedi aren't even willing to help, let alone find a solution. Had the Jedi been able to come up with a solution, I definitely think he would have listened. Otherwise he wouldn't have gone to Yoda in the first place

    You simply cannot hold it against Yoda in this instance.

    Luke tells Yoda, "Han....Leia...." , "And sacrifice Han & Leia?"
  14. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    "No offense, but nothing in there says why it isn't selfish. Sure he feels bad, sure he feels like it's his fault - but going off to save her is still selfish. I'm not making excuses to "condemn" Anakin at all, but it's just a selfish choice. I'm not saying he's bad or evil because of it, or that he doesn't give a **** and kicks puppies while he's at it - i'm just saying he was selfish in that instance."

    I think he made a mistake. He put his mom's life in higher priority than his job, than keeping padme safe. But I don't think that automatically that he made a mistake due to selfish reasons. If anything I don't think he put that much thought into it, really. He obviously wouldn't have wanted to put padme's life in danger, he had already confessed his feelings for her. But I think, once he knew his mom was in danger, he became narrowminded, like he did with padme. Reckless? Irresponsible? Sure. Selfish? Eh, I'm not so sure.

    And probably a decision I make. Family, to me, is top priority. Whether that's because of my attachment to them or caring about their wellbeing, I think it should be top priority.

    Here's why I don't think it was selfish in his instance. He wasn't going there to save her so he would be with her for a lifetime. He wasn't worried about how it affected him. I simply think he valued her safety, and her happiness, more than he thought Padme was in danger. Like I said, I think that's more reckless than selfish.

    "ll Anakin did was hand out a vague description, and in turn he received a very direct and general answer. If he was a 100% focused on just saving Padme, he'd have told Yoda or Kenobi. But he doesn't just want to save Padme, he wants the power to save Padme. "

    This I completely disagree with. He doesn't tell Yoda or Obi-Wan because he doesn't want to end both their careers. Selfish? Sure, but I fully believe that's the reason, and not because of he needed the power. Oh, I'm sure he wanted the power, so he could have everything in his hands, but I don't think he wanted to save Padme ONLY if it was his doing.

    "Anakin gives Yoda, "...Someone". How is Yoda supposed to tell him the hows, whys and whats of her possible death. What is he supposed to say to Anakin?"

    Just what he does to Luke in ESB. "Always in motion, the future is". Basically that there's hope.

    "Sure he was desperate, sure he was confused, again i've never condemned him - but the boy messed up, he refused to listen to Padme. The ony person he, as he himself claims, would do anything for. But why, if he'd do anything, doesn't he listen to her?"

    He certainly messed up. I think what we differ on in opinion is WHY he messed up.

    I don't think it had so much to do with the power to save padme, but more to do with the consequences of the jedi (and senate) finding out about the two. I think that was his driving factor of not wanting to divulge too much information to yoda and obi-wan, not the need for power (and I do think he wanted the power to save people, but I do not think that's the reason he didn't go straight to the jedi with full openness). Had that been his goal, I don't think he even goes to the Jedi. By withholding information, I think that shows he was afraid of the consequences. He was hoping to get the information and help without condemning the two of them.

    He flat out messed up. I just don't think the motivation was the same as you think.
  15. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Palpatine wasn't threatening Luke though, he was tormenting him.

    "you WILL die!" wasn't a clear threat of death?

    Regarding Anakin's character arc, I understand the point of it and how it plays out. I understand how it lessens his character and the saga as a whole if he doesn't change and grow. And I do definitely see and believe in the changes in Darth Vader from the end of TESB onwards. But I also think Lucas went too far with the evil in ROTS for him to be truly redeemed. Darth Vader was a 'bad' guy before ROTS, but now he's a despicable 'evil' guy. Murdering young children is too much. That should have been left for the clones or Palpatine. Abusing his wife is too much. I simply can't forgive those offenses.

    Interesting point about Hitler being forgiven by the catholic church if he had repented. I suppose that is probably true within its theology. And since George bases the story and the Force to some extent on religious tales, that makes sense. But I don't believe in that sort of religious absolution in real life, hence I can't buy into it in a film.

    I love ROTS and it makes the saga better, but I also think that the direction George took it in was too dark for me to forgive Anakin. If he had killed adult Jedi in a fair fight, I could have forgiven that. If he had rejected Padme and grown angry with her, but without the violence towards her, I could have forgiven him. But he'll always be a cowardly wife beater to me, I don't care what he does later in life.

    I am TOO attached to these characters to view it in the cold impersonal light of tragic literature and art. I felt personally angry after watching the film. I was offended by Anakin Skywalker and his actions. Within the context of the film, I mean, not in some crazy "Lucas should be ashamed" way.

    If he had lived after ROTJ...let's consider his 'redemption.' Do you think he had become wise and courageous like Obi-Wan? Able to calmly deal with life? If Luke or Leia were threatened with death, would he be able to put aside his attachments and allow the way of the Force and the natural order of life to continue on? I just can't see it. I think he would have contined to be the same aggressive and obsessive family man he had always been. I think at the end of ROTJ, Darth Vader once again became Anakin Skywalker. But that is no great feat, because Anakin Skywalker was a bad and flawed individual.
  16. JediRac Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2001
    star 2
    Anakin to me is very similar to Luke...reckless, impatient, and impulsive. Lacking the right guidance that the people taking care of them never give both of them. Anakin's mom tries her best, but I think he would have run away when he was older and strong enough to face up to Watto. The only person who became a real father-figure to him was Qui-Gon, which is why his death in TPM is when we really know this is the start of the fall of Anakin. When in TPM he says to Obi-Wan
    IIRC:

    "What's going to happen to me now?"

    He doesn't say anything selfless, only one selfish remark now that he knows he's the Chosen One. Qui-Gon's death really was a turning point in the saga because it opened up a new father-figure: Palpatine. It was too easy for Palpatine to manipulate Anakin because he knew Anakin's feelings and became someone Anakin could trust. We are led to believe that Obi-Wan will be the father-figure that Anakin is looking for in AOTC...Anakin even feels that he is. But Obi-Wan can't contol him. No one can deal with his emotions because the Jedi are constantly telling him to let go of the ones he loves.

    When his mom dies no Jedi has a real discussion with him. This only makes his rush to marry Padme more unavoidable, and his relationship to Palpatine gets stronger.

    By promising his mother that he won't fail her again, he is obsessed with saving Padme, and this plays right into Palpatine's hands. By the time of ROTS he is already almost completely turned, once he is convinced the Jedi are evil then its over.

    Anakin just made the wrong choices. He dealt with people who never told him what he wanted to hear, except for Palpatine.

    Luke makes some really reckless choices as well, ones that would surely go against the Jedi code. But it's the love for his friends and family that finally makes Anakin see who the real enemy finally is. He redeems himself to his family and the Force, but not to the rest of the galaxy.
  17. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    You're entitled to your beliefs storm, of course, but do you really believe that there wasn't any good in Anakin? He wasn't always flawed and bad, and I would argue that up until he killed Mace he was a pretty good guy. He's certainly depicted that way in ROTS. Of course he's very flawed, but he's still considered a hero and he is trying to be a good person and a good Jedi. Why can't the newly redeemed Vader embody that Anakin, the one Obi-Wan called wise and strong? Why does he have to be the Anakin that killed the Tuskens?

    I think that the reactions different people have are interesting. Some don't think Anakin did enough evil deeds, and some think too many. I guess it just depends on your compassion and understanding for the character. I think that Anakin did have to do some pretty evil things for his redemption to mean as much as it does. Lucas did take it further than I thought he would. But Lucas himself said that we'd feel pity and sorrow for Anakin once it's over, I guess sorrow for the potential greatness that was lost in him. Though he does do certain visual things like not actually showing Anakin kill any Jedi, of course he implies it, but people respond differently to implication. Yes, even the implication of killing kids is horrible, and if we actually saw him to it it would be harder to retain pity for him, especially for the kids in the audience. That's just the way we react to things, we need to see it to actual get the full impact.

    Anakin choked his wife in a moment of insanity, but he does not have a history as a wife beater. That moment, probably more than what happened in the Temple, shows just how much Anakin lost his mind, that's the moment he snaps. But he didn't mean to kill her, or seriously injure her and probably wouldn't have done it had Obi-Wan not shown up. Even Padme seems to forgive him, and shiny new Vader freaks out when told that Padme is dead and that he killed her. It was a horrible moment of weakness, much like the Tusken slaughter was, and his participation in Mace's murder. But he was regretful of all three. Before the movie came out I was dead aganist Anakin having anything to do with Padme's death, thinking that he could never harm her. But I think what Lucas did here was brilliant, and I was wrong. It was all set up perfectly in terms of maximum character impact (for all 3)- from the platform scene on Mustafar, to Padme's death and funeral, and then Vader's reaction to the part he had in her death. I'm certainly not trying to make excuses for him, just figure out why, because I do believe that despite all of this Anakin once was a flawed, but good person and that very, very, deep down good remains.

    edit: About attachment. I understand what you're saying. You're too attached to the characters to forgive him. And isn't that often the case in real life? I was so affected the first time I saw the film, I didn't think I could see it again. What happened to Anakin had me terribly shaken. Of course, I was devastated for Obi-Wan and saddened by Padme (who in the end, at least found peace in death), but for some reason the immolation scene on top of the birth of twins/birth of Vader scenes completely did me in. I found it extremely hard to deal with the fact that we'd never see beautiful, strong, loving Anakin ever again, that he had become this monster. So I guess, personally, I am more attached to the Anakin character, and I'm trying hard to look at the whole thing from an artistic standpoint, because it's hard for me right now to deal with it on a personal level. I find the movie that devastating, and I can't imagine being able to watch TPM and AOTC right now, I just can't deal seeing Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan in those movies yet.
  18. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I do think he had good in him, definitely. He was not 100% evil. But I think that just about every human who has ever lived has SOME good in him/her. And I think that having some good in you doesn't excuse the bad that you do. I'm sure that even Palpatine was a normal child. And that's why I make the analogy to Hitler, because I can't imagine that a child has ever existed who was 'evil.' There are bullies and bad kids, but I can't conceive of an 'evil' child. And I think this film becomes a study and interpretation of evil. If you forget about the OT and Anakin's redemption, the story of the PT becomes the story of how evil is born. The PT basically shows us that evil is born from normal human flaws. That even the most evil of evil people (and Vader is #2 in the Star Wars universe) were human and had dreams and did nice things before they finally fell to the Dark Side. In the history books of the GFFA, Darth Vader is probably remembered as one of the most wretched villains in recorded history. Because that's who he came to be. The 'nice' things about his youth really don't matter. Benedict Arnold is not remembered for his service to the American Revolution, but for his betrayal. The good that was his prior life is meaningless in light of his betrayal. Actually, I'm looking at a web site about Arnold, and it has many similarities to Anakin's. Anger at Congress about slights he perceived they committed against him. One of the web sites even calls him a 'hero on both sides of the war' which is strikingly similar to the opening crawl of ROTS. I'm going to need to research more on his story, because it appears to have an amazing similarity to Anakin's betrayal.

    Regarding pre-movie ideas of Padme's deaths, I also didn't think he should have a role in it. I agree with you that the way Lucas handled it was perfect, but I also think it is part of the reason I can't forgive him. It is clear that Anakin did not kill her directly, but at the same time there was no other reason for her death than his actions. He didn't shoot her or choke her, but he did take her life away, thus she gave up and died.

    I understand what you're saying about viewing the film from an artistic standpoint, because the pain is too much. That's my problem. I'm sad and angry about what he did. It was awful. It doesn't matter if I knew what was going to happen, I still feel angry about it.
  19. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Actually, I like the Benedict Arnold comparison. Because just because he was a traitor, I don't think that means he was a bad person. It fits in perfectly with the "certain point of view". I admit to not knowing the full story of Arnold's turn (I believe part of it, even moreso than political idealogies, was out of a perceived lack of respect), but people whom we consider heros and revolutionaries (George Washington, John Adams, etc) would be considered traitors had we lost the war. A lot of history is "from a certain point of view".

    "I do think he had good in him, definitely. He was not 100% evil. But I think that just about every human who has ever lived has SOME good in him/her"

    This entire argument, IMO, I guess all boils down to what you thought of him before his turn.

    Some good? I think nearly all people have good qualities. But I think there are "bad" people and "good" people. I think it depends on what your intentions are, and remorse/regret.

    What I wasn't expecting in the prequels was just how much of a manipulator and opportunist palpatine was. Without Palpatine's influence, I don't see any way Anakin turns into the person he becomes. I'm a big believer in environment forming a persons personality moreso than genetics. IMO there are thousands of people in this world, drug dealers, thieves, who are good people at heart who do bad things, a lot of it influenced by environment or culture.

    When Anakin stops Mace, I look at that not only as him becoming a new Sith aprentice, but an entirely new person. To me, the dark side is almost made out to be like a drug. I have seen friends, good, honest people, who get caught up in drugs. Their priorities change, their attitude changes. They do things I could never have imagined them doing before. Drugs ruin lives. It spirals out of control, "dominate your destiny" so to speak. They begin stealing, ignoring their loved ones. Extremely self-centered. And there are usually character flaws that lead to drug use. It's not these character flaws that make them bad, it's the negative opportunities that these character flaws open up.

    And when a junkie finally gets the courage to get help, when they finally set their lives straight, it's one of the greatest things in the world. They've still done some terrible things, but they've realized their mistakes, and they correct them.

    Anakin's always had some character flaws that lead him to "drug use". He's also had some environmental issues (his mother being tortured and killed, his wife being threatened, growing up as a slave) that could initiate "drug use". And he has the greatest enabler of all time pushing him along (palpatine). When he cuts off Mace's arm, and finally takes that first hit, there's no going back. And the "drugs" corrupt him quickly.

    That's the way I view his fall, anyway. Character flaws (lust for power/respect, temper) + bad environment (mothers death, being a slave, padme being threatened) + enablers (palpatine) + bad personal decisions = drug use (dark side), eventual intervention (Luke) and cleaning up (end of ROTJ).
  20. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    Here's one way to look at it...in ROTJ, it makes sense that Luke can forgive him. Vader has been his enemy, but Luke has not personally witnessed any of the actions of Vader that would make him evil. The Empire is evil in Luke's eyes, but Luke has never seen Vader personally do anything horrible. So it is easy to understand that Luke can forgive his father.

    But why Yoda? Why Obi-Wan? Do they not remember the horrors of ROTS? Does Ben not remember that it was Anakin who KILLED him? Are the three of them all of a sudden buddies again? It seems like too much for me. But I guess they'd all had 25 years to think about it.

    In many ways, Luke's viewpoint on Vader was much the same as ours, until we saw ROTS. We knew Vader from the OT, where he was a bad guy, but not a horrible monster. Now that we've seen him in ROTS, we know the depths of his betrayal. Our viewpoint in that final scene of ROTJ is now from the perspective of Yoda and Obi-Wan, and no longer from Luke's. We know it all, the whole horrible story, and Luke does not.
  21. hippie1kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 2
    I agree with Storm on one thing; the scene with the Younglings was too much. If the clones had done it or if the Jedi Temple had simply been blown up then the redemption at the end of the saga would be easier to swallow.

    That said, I guess it comes back to the debate of how one views Anakin and Vader. Is Anakin simply making poor decision or does it go to the point of almost being possesion? Does the Dark Side consume him so much that he is almost unable to make his own decisions until his son "breaks the spell"?

    Just rhetorical questions..I'm still mulling over the film and what it means.
  22. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Luke has never seen Vader personally do anything horrible.

    I wouldn't say that. Luke has seen Vader kill Obi-Wan, he's seen him shooting Biggs and other of his comrades in the trench run, he's seen Vader turn his back on him and deliver him to the emperor. Plus i don't think we should underestimate how much Luke actually knows about his father, he knows he turned on the Jedi - and i don't think Luke is ignorant to how brutal, cowardly and mercyless his father was in this turn.

    Sure, he hasn't nearly had the same experience as Obi-Wan and Yoda in witnessing the horror of Anakins actions - but he's not ignorant of how "evil" Vader is, not even close.

    But why Yoda? Why Obi-Wan? Do they not remember the horrors of ROTS? Does Ben not remember that it was Anakin who KILLED him? Are the three of them all of a sudden buddies again?

    But Obi-Wan spends three movies, in GFFA slang 30 years, basically forgiving Anakin. "The good man that was your father, ceased to exist", "...And he was a good friend", "I thought i could train him as well as Yoda, i was wrong". He spends 3 movies talking from his own point of view, and it's very clear that he still loves Anakin - it's unclear on whether he has hope for him to return, even though GL says he does, but Obi-Wan, more than anyone, instills very deep affection for Anakin through the OT.

    "The part I am working on now is mostly about Darth Vader, who he is, where he came from, how he became Luke and Leia's father, what his relationship to Ben is. In Jedi, the film is really about the Redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film."

    --George Lucas, The Annotated Screenplays, 1997


    "you WILL die!" wasn't a clear threat of death?

    Yeah, i should've said he doesn't "only" threaten him - he actually takes action.

    the direction George took it in was too dark for me to forgive Anakin.

    But he went to the darkside, there's nothing honourable, romantic, mercyfull or redeeming to be found there. I understand that Anakin does horrible things, but that's the darkside for ya. This is the first Episode that really lets us journey into it, and it's not a pretty sight. I don't see how anyone could look at OT-Vader, and then be suprised that Anakin has no boundaries when he goes dark.

    Do you think he had become wise and courageous like Obi-Wan? Able to calmly deal with life?

    Why shouldn't he?

    The PT goes out of its way to show glimpses that the wisdom is hidden somewhere in that thickheaded mind of his. That's the tragedy, Anakin knew better - he just acted worse. After RotJ, the biggest problem he ever had - accepting destiny, is resolved. Anakin has learned to let go. I don't think that this experience is limited only to this, that's why he appears in the same robes as Kenobi/Yoda - he finally has what it takes to be a Jedi Master.

    "Somethings happening....I'm not the Jedi i should be, i want more - and i know i shouldn't"

    When his mom dies no Jedi has a real discussion with him.

    I don't think any Jedi even knows she died, maybe Yoda - but i think that all he felt was rage, death and suffering. Whether he or Mace ever talked to Anakin or Kenobi about this, i have no idea. And to my knowledge, no EU source adresses this. But it speaks volumes if Anakin only told Palpatine, and none of the Jedi.

    The redeemed Anakin isn't a perfect Anakin, but all that matters is that he was become a good person again - and he has, at least, learned to overcome his greatest flaw. Whether one feels he immediately deserves to be put next to Yoda and Obi-Wan is all up for grabs, i feel that it matters more that they think he belongs to stand next to them. But that's all personal, i still don't know if i've actually forgiven him - i don't
  23. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I don't think any Jedi even knows she died, maybe Yoda - but i think that all he felt was rage, death and suffering. Whether he or Mace ever talked to Anakin or Kenobi about this, i have no idea. And to my knowledge, no EU source adresses this.

    Obi-Wan knows. I can't remember what book touches on it though, one of the CW novels. Of course, he doesn't know about the Tuskens, only that Anakin went to the planet and his mother died. I sort of assume if Obi-Wan knows then the Council knows, but I could be wrong. But I don't think anyone ever tried to talk to him about it successfully, and no one knows about the Tuskens besides Palpatine anyway.
  24. Whizkid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 2003
    star 4

    How is the ROTS version of Vader too evil? In ANH, he idly sits there while an entire planet is destroyed. That is way worse than anything in ROTS.
  25. hippie1kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 2
    Well, first off you point out one difference; that between standing idly by while your superior takes an action and actively killing children who think you have come to protect them.

    There is also a huge difference in the way the acts are portrayed cinimaticly. The descruction of Alderaan has almost no bite to it. In fact, without the line "Alderaan is peaceful, we have no weapons" it comes across as little more than an agressive military action; faceless and antiseptic in its depiction. Anakin's actions in ROTS by contrast are all very personal and have no motive other than his own personal gain.

    Lastly there is the fact that in our culture violence against children is one of the darkest deeds there is. Clearly the scene is included to show how far Anakin has fallen. To feel that Anakins actions in ROTS are his worst in the saga is only going with what is Lucas' obvious intent.
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