Anakin, you idiot!

"We'd be living a lie. I couldn't do that. Could you Ani?"

She knew it right then - deception, sneaking around, not telling the truth, all a recipe for disaster. But in the end, she went against what her conscience was telling her and she paid a terrible price for it.

 

As well as Padmé's pledges to her people in TPM, we gained insight into Padmé's principles and how they clash with Anakin's in AOTC:

PADMÉ: "You really don't like politicians, do you?"

ANAKIN: "I like two or three, but I'm not really sure about one of them. (smiling) I don't think the system works."

PADMÉ: "How would you have it work?"

ANAKIN: "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problem, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it."

PADMÉ: "That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do."

ANAKIN: "Then they should be made to."

PADMÉ: "By whom? Who's going to make them?"

ANAKIN: "I don't know. Someone."

PADMÉ: "You?"

ANAKIN: "Of course not me."

PADMÉ: "But someone."

ANAKIN: "Someone wise."

PADMÉ: "That sounds an awful lot like a dictatorship to me."

A mischievous little grin creeps across his face.

ANAKIN: "Well, if it works..."

 

The Force isn't about logic - period.

 

When using the Force and being a Jedi, logic is the only way to function. Being totally emotional like Luke and Anakin were, is beyond dangerous. The thing that Lucas stresses is that a Jedi has to be less emotional and more rational when they make decisions. Anakin's problem was that he felt that because he couldn't do it, he couldn't put forth the effort to do so.

Anakin had a choice and made the wrong one. It may look right, but he was not ready for that kind of mature relationship with Padme. Not when he's selfish and greedy. And Padme went against her principles and common sense, for her own desires. She knew it was dangerous and yet did it anyway. That's why their relationship was dubbed 'Forbidden Love'.

 

And yet, Anakin was able to overcome his darkness, due to his emotional attachment to his son. Luke was able to get through to Anakin, due to his emotional attachment to his son.

There is nothing wrong with emotional attachments . . . as long as one doesn't allow it to CONTROL you. There was nothing wrong with Anakin and Padme becoming man and wife. Where they went wrong is that they had conducted their marriage in a secretive manner, leading them to become TOO emotionally attached to one another.

By the way, achieving spiritual self-realization (or becoming one with the Force) IS NOT ABOUT LOGIC. There is nothing logical about it.

 

Actually, Anakin came back because his son showed him a great deal of compassion. And he saw that he couldn't let that die. Luke avoided turning because he let go of his attachments. He accepted that people can die. He accepted that he had limitations. He accepted that he didn't have to be all powerful. Anakin sees this and because of the compassionate nature of his son's actions, sparked Anakin's own compassionate action.

Anakin and Luke both let go of their attachments. They both finally get it. They are thinking of others instead of themselves. They are not selfish. They are not obsessed with power. And they are accepting of nature's law. They no longer confuse compassionate love with possessive love.

 

By the way, achieving spiritual self-realization (or becomming one with the Force) IS ABOUT LOGIC! It's present in some religions, which makes it as logical as virgin birth, the devil and God, the essential good vs evil. It's an important aspect of the force - it's after-life in a whole new dimension...

The force is about logic... many will argue that the force powers in SW is present in different cultures, or are at least theories in different communities.

 

how is the force or spiritual teaching about logic? how is faith about logic?

 

Seems we've got a little Vulcan here

 

I'm not sure I totally agree with this statement. With the saga complete, my take is that the Jedi and the Sith represented the two different emotional extremes, with the Jedi being too rational (distancing themselves from emotion too much) and the Sith being too emotional. I think Lucas is trying to show us that its better to balance the two then to rely on one, and I've always felt that Luke embodied such a balance in the end of ROTJ. He had attachments, he allowed himself to feel emotion for his friends and father, and yet at the same time he makes the rational choice to reject the dark side, let go of his attachments, and accept what the Force has in store for him. So to sum up, my take is that Lucas is saying that balance between emotion and logic is the best course rather than the Jedi and Sith policy of suppressing one for the other. That's just my opinion of one of the messages of the saga.

 

If you read Dark Lord you'll se he forgets Padme pretty quickly wqhen people start kissing his butt and fearing him. He loves it. It's what he wanted.

 

I'm not sure I totally agree with this statement. With the saga complete, my take is that the Jedi and the Sith represented the two different emotional extremes, with the Jedi being too rational (distancing themselves from emotion too much) and the Sith being too emotional. I think Lucas is trying to show us that its better to balance the two then to rely on one, and I've always felt that Luke embodied such a balance in the end of ROTJ. He had attachments, he allowed himself to feel emotion for his friends and father, and yet at the same time he makes the rational choice to reject the dark side, let go of his attachments, and accept what the Force has in store for him. So to sum up, my take is that Lucas is saying that balance between emotion and logic is the best course rather than the Jedi and Sith policy of suppressing one for the other. That's just my opinion of one of the messages of the saga.

All this is very much in sync with the need to store "balance" in the galaxy
that Anakin represents.

 

By the way, achieving spiritual self-realization (or becomming one with the Force) IS ABOUT LOGIC!

I disagree. I believe that spiritual self-realization goes beyond logic or emotion . . . or perhaps a balance of both. Please see from a website called Philosophy of Yoga -

For example:

Obstacles along the journey toward the Inner Self are dissipated through the repetition of aum and meditation on God.

Repeating aum with awareness and understanding of its power leads the practitioner to the True Self. The True Self is that part that is akin with the Supreme One. This realization of our connection with the Supreme One is Self-Realization. And any impediments along this journey to Self-Realization are washed away through this repetition of aum like the ocean slowly washes away the shoreline.

When Self-Realization is obtained, you, the observer cleave to the observed and become one in the same. The True Self is revealed with no distractions, no hindrance and rises like a new sun on a new day.

Also:

The sutras reveal the nine obstacles the aspirant faces on his way to the True Self and ultimately Self-Realization. These obstacles can hinder his progress and his focus.

The nine obstacles are grouped into three main categories: Physical, mental, intellectual and spiritual.;

and

Lingering doubt, pride or carelessness, idleness and sense gratification are grouped under the mental category and derive from ego. The ego is the seed of the physical body just as our thoughts are the seeds of our words and actions.

Living in a world of delusion is a result of human logic. This is found in the category of intellect. The intellect wants desperately to make logical the illogical. Human logic can never understand Supreme Logic. The by-product is only illusion.

 

With logic or making a more rational decision, you are capable of making the correct decisions. Human beings as a whole has two ways to make a decision. One where they sit down and look at the big picture. Where they take everything into account and make a decision without going by their emotional instincts. And then there's the emotional instinct, which is basically known as the gut feeling. You make decisions because you see it as the right thing to do...emotionally.

Case in point, if we had the opportunity to go back in time and kill Hitler. The logicial thing to do would be to leave history alone, because there could be dire consequences for messing with history. Things could be ten times worse and that's a risk one cannot take, if they make a rational decision. An emotion decision would be to kill Hitler and don't worry about possible consequences, much less consider them until it's too late to undo what was done. How this relates to Star Wars is that Anakin's decision to do everything that he did in ROTS, stems from emotionally based decisions. As we see, these decisions are wrong. He's led and manipulated by his emotions. Luke in ROTJ makes emotional decisions at first, but then starts to make rational decisions. He realizes at the last moment when he has done. He has brought himself to the point where he will become his father, because he is doing the exact same things Anakin did. Luke makes a calm and rational decision. He chooses to throw away his weapon and tell Palpatine that he will not kill in cold blood. He will not turn to the Dark Side. He declares himself a Jedi, like his father before him. When Anakin saves Luke, it is done because he has a moment to think it out. And he makes a rational decision. One that has not a trace or hint of selfishness involved. Especially since it will cost him his life and the life of the Emperor.

Anakin's conflict goes away when he clears his mind of question and at long last, sees the truth of the situation.

Lucas says that the Jedi can love people. They can have relationships. They've never been denied that at all. What they do deny is emotional attachments. Because they lead to the Dark Side. Possessiveness, obsessiveness, jealousy, greediness, fear, anger and hate are all connected to this. Fear of loss is the path to the Dark Side. Fear of losing people and things. The fear of change. Anger and hate is the next step from fear. Anger that you cannot keep these moments frozen in time. And hate for those who seek to destroy your happiness. Jealousy plays a factor as well.

Anakin was afraid to lose his happiness. He was jealous of Obi-wan who had it easier, in his view. He felt that Obi-wan was jealous of him, because of his abilities. Padme became a possession to him. Someone that he didn't want to be taken away from him, even if she chooses t

 

Darth Sinister says - One that has not a trace or hint of selfishness involved. Especially since it will cost him his life and the life of the Emperor.

Well another interpretation could be that he chooses to save the life of his son whom he LOVES emotionally and without compassion, the kind of love we all know is "wrong."

Plus he has no respect for the Emperor - he is following him blindly because he has nothing else in life. So his death is hardly a great sacrifice.

Plus Vader hardly has much life to lose has he? He knows the Emperor will replace him with Luke given half the chance despite everything he has done for him.

So it's possible to see Vader's "great" sacrifice as completely selfish, it also restores him in his son's good books

 

I think people focus too much on AnaVader saving Luke and not what he had to do internally in order to save Luke. Let's not look at his motive for the moment.

To get up and throw Palps down the shaft was an act of rejecting the Dark Side - saying, "Luke's right; Luke has chosen correctly - unlike me." To save him he had to reject every evil thing he had ever done and take responsibility for them all. For 23 years he was in denial - telling himself that he had chosen correctly (even, if the EU is to be believed, that he has fulfilled the Prophecy.) He had to face up to - choking his wife - betraying the Jedi - killing Obi-wan - torturing his daughter - cutting his son's hand off - all of it. That's what that indecision scene (where he's looking back and forth) is about (for me) - otherwise AnaVader just looks a little slow on the uptake.

So IMO, that scene isn't so much about saving Luke - which of course he does - but rejecting evil. That's why he can stand beside Ben and Yoda in the final scene.

 

To get up and throw Palps down the shaft was an act of rejecting the Dark Side

Ah Jedi_momma you make me feel so cynical

Yep I can see where you are coming from. I am only thinking that it is possible to view the scene in many ways, it has always been ambiguous for me. Especially now the "force ghost" has been tampered but I guess we are seeing the Jedi that Anakin was meant to be, not the dark scary guy we get in ROTS. A happy smiling man with brown robes

 

It's OK to be "cynical" - you know what GB Shaw said, "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it."

I know the scene is open to interpretation but that's the only way it "works" for me. That's the only way I can explain Anakin's appearing to be "redeemed." That's the only way he becomes a sympathetic character again. From the "Rumination" scene until this one, I must admit, I don't have a whole lot of compassion for him.

 

I think I agree with Jedi-Momma here, basically for me the scene in question was about Anakin, finally doing something for someone else, casting down the darkside, sacrificing himself and taking the responsibility for all he had done.

Or something to that effect......

 

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it?s only in the last act?when he throws his sword down and says, 'I?m not going to fight this'?that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It?s only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It?s not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, how do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000

"I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding?a ?bigger picture? understanding?of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.

Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature. Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature. Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells."

--George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion?of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides?the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD commentary.

 

In the first two movies (PM and AOTC) Anakin behaves like Peter Pan - he is naughty, he doesn't listen to grown-ups, he does what he likes and what he believes is good. It's like "wow, I can fly on space ship" and "wow, I have my own lightsaber", and such. He likes the risk and has little responsibility, and he seems to be having fun most of the time, at least until he gets his arm cut off. In his relationship with Padme he is mostly having fun, too. In the Revenge of the Sith Anakin grows up into evil sith lord, whom we later on know as classical Darth Vader, with black suit and helmet, and voice of James Earl Jones. It is all very interesting and scary, how he kills the jedi younglings, how he fights Obi-Van and gets his costume. I would say he is a very impressive evil hero, and it is all depicted very well.

But there is a thing I don't understand and I don't like here. Anakin keeps telling how much he loves Padme, how much he wants to save her and see her live. Can someone explain me, why he never questioned what was the gender of his future child, and take her to the doctor to see ultrascan research. He would know that the twins were expected. Yes, Anakin is supposed to forsee the future (at least until he goes to the dark side which "hides everything"), and he sees some nightmares with Padme dying. Was it a problem to go to the hospital in advance, before it was too late, and pass the blood test. She could stay there for a month or two, give birth to the twins and live somewhere on another planet. I understand that it must be kept in secret from Palpatine otherwise he would kill the children, but if Yoda could hide somewhere in the swamp for many years, and Obi-Van found a nice place in the desert, why not find a place for Padme? Why did she have to die? And what was the physical reason of her death? She "lost her will to live"? What about maternal instinct, what about the love of mother for her children, which can be much stronger than the love for a husband? Men come, men go, there is always an opportunity to get a divorce, but children are our own blood, how could she turn away from them, close her eyes and pass away like this.

Emotions, emotions... The moment when Anakin yells at Padme and chokes her with his force, I thought "Idiot, what are you doing, she is pregnant with your baby". The way he treated his wife was very, very stupid. He should have placed her in the hospital, lock her there in a room with many doctors and everything necessary for birth, and then enjoy killing his "enemies" or whoever he thought he needs to kill. Then he would be an ordinary evil hero... But no, we see this tragedy in Revenge of Sith, and the sad funeral procession with beautiful Padme in her expensive coffet.

Anyway, it is Star Wars movie, not "Romeo+Juliett in space", so I don't critisize.

 

And this is supposed to be evidence that LOGIC is the way toward self-realization?

 

Sherylin- i'll try to answer some of your questions. In the ROTS novelization, Padme and Anakin have a brief exchange about what the baby's gender might be and mentions that they "want it to be a surprise." hopefully that answers why Padme and Anakin didn't have an ultrasound.

As to why Anakin never tried seeking medical advice/help rather than devastating the galaxy.. that's a very good question. I think the only way to understand this would be to examine Anakin's character and history. He has shown himself to be an incredibly precocious Force user prone to premonitions and dreams. All of his premonitions in the past (becoming a Jedi, mother dying) have come to pass and he knows in his heart that this dream about Padme too will come to pass. I think that, at this point, he believes Padme's fate to be beyond medical help and that the Force vision spells inevitability. Hence the frustration, the consuming fears, the seeming "lack of options" in Anakin's mind and the ultimate reason he takes up Sidious' offer.

Padme's death and sudden "loss of will to live" have been criticized by many people as out of character and pathetic, especially for someone who had once been so strong and convicted. She should have lived for the sake of the babies and carried out the Rebellion she had been planning with Bail, etc. I can certainly understand that point of view. However, if you view it from another angle, it begins to make some sense-- thematically and dramatically at least. Padme is someone who dedicated her entire youth to the Republic. In terms of personal fufillment, Anakin is the only passion she has allowed herself. The end of the ROTS finds the Republic she serves completely annihilated, the man she loves a terrible monster and the destruction of everything she has believed in. In a way, the her insides have been ripped out from her. Padme's death is a highly symbolic event -- this is why her funeral holds such a hearthbreaking note. Her passing represents the passing of everything she stood for: reason, liberty, beauty, a more gracious and civilized age.

George Lucas is also very big on symbiotic relationships -- you see this indicated in ROTS during the ruminations scene when Anakin and Padme both stare out the windows across Coruscant--they have a connection that runs deep. Anakin's "death" as he becomes Vader is paralled by Padme's death. The motif of a love that binds two people's fates in life and death is a common one in mythology and legends. The mythic element is strong in SW. And like you said, this is SW, not Shakespeare or CNN. But let's face it, isn't this why we all love SW ?

 

Its agreed that Lucas prefers to base everthing on a mythologiccal contexts. The more tragic symbolisms are more concurrent throughout rots definatley

 

I take your point, Vegaofthelyre, regarding Padme's death being symbolic - but somehow that was lost I felt, maybe it was in the acting, maybe because there was quite a pace and it was lost in so many things happening and being wrapped up in time for ANH..... I was disappointed in the birth scene - unrealistic and adhoc - let alone the size of Padme's bump! But that's another board's topic!
In the end I was cheesed off the Padme seemed to wimp out of life rather than hanging on to take care of her wee babes who were now at the mercy of their raging father.

Regarding the love between Padme and Anakin, someone mentioned Anakin's love being immature. I think that's very true and sums up Anakin full stop - not that either of them were exactly grounded in reality in their love for one another. Anakin's love for Padme rather reminded me of the love of a toddler for something or someone. The love for possesing this thing is intense but should it disappoint it risks being destroyed.
Anakin's immaturity showed itself in many ways: impatience, fierce rejection of criticism of apparent delays in his progression as a Jedi, destruction of things or people who he felt stood in his way, and paranoia and distrust of loved ones based on the fact that appeared to be holding him up.
McDiarmid was an excellent Lucifer in that respect, whispering sweet nothings in to Anakin's ear, fueling his destructive self-pity.

Fear and anger? Oh yes, watch out for those. But do not underestimate the destructive power of self-pity.....

Faith, logic, emotions & Jedi: I think what is needed is a balance between heart and mind. Emotions are important and can be vital messengers contradicting what seems logical but is actually wrong or dangerous even. But you need to understand where your emotions are coming from, ie, motive. Faith is not an exercise in logic winning over emotions, rather the meeting and balancing of the two.
And attachments I don't feel are a problem in themselves - desire and desire to possess, those are the problem areas. One cannot go through life without forming attachments (unless you're General Grievous!), but how you conduct yourself in response to those attachments is what counts. As a wise woman (my mother) once said to me, you cannot control your emotions, but you can attempt to control the behaviour that results from your emotions.