Anakin, you idiot!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by SithHappensIII, Jun 22, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd. It completely undermines the entire Saga. The reason Luke can get through to Vader is because he's his son, the child born from he and Padme's love. There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that it wasn't real love. Lucas says over and over that they loved each other, the point is that on Anakin's end it grew to be unhealthy and dangerous. It has nothing to do with a cheering crowd either. He needed to feel that love and have that attachment because of his upbringing. He never totally fit into the Jedi and with Padme he could actually be himself. Love is a crucial element for a tragic hero, and both Lucas and Campbell made very sure that the Anakin/Vader fit it perfectly. False love doesn't cut it. The love story didn't work for everyone, but that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't intend it to be a real pure love that Anakin felt toward Padme, a love that was tragically corrupted.
  2. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    you dont willingly marry someone you dont love thats why i dont buy the "he olnly loved himself" theory:rolleyes:
  3. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    Absurd? That was a bit harsh, but no matter. It is after all only my opinion. It doesn?t take away from the finality of the Saga but only enhances the ending. It is only at the end that Vader recognizes the truth. The power of love. A love he callously threw away in his goal to be powerful. His ambition. That unhealthy ?love? or in my opinion, obsession began with the beginning. The vents between EP I and II are for the most part unknown to us and so we assume the young Anakin is being care for by the Jedi. Care for how? How is it that they were unable to make that connection ? that attachment ? he so badly needed? They have after all assigned him the title of Chosen One. And yet, we see in EP II that Palps has worked his magic and Anakin is suspicious of the Jedi, even Obi-1. How in that 10 year period of time did the Jedi assure and ensure that the Chosen One was what the prophecy stated he was? IMO, they didn?t. The ?tragic hero?? Anakin? Why is he the hero? Because in the last film (book), he rediscovers his humanity? I agree that he is the Chosen One, but Luke is the hero of the original Trilogy. He is the catalyst that forces Vader to see just what he had become.

    The love story. I loved these two kids when they first showed up. Even as the events played out, I waited for them to figure it out and beat the odds, but George kept to the rumors. She died, he?s in the suit and I wait for Luke.


    Sithrules 70 - people do it all the time.
  4. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    i still odnt buy it.and read the big "willingly" that i wrote.he certainly didnt marry her for her money or political position
  5. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd"

    Oh he loved her, just not in a mature healthy way.
    Ani loved obsessively and possessively which is why he made some
    of the choices he did. Also, if someone suggested Ani didn't love
    Padme, it's not absurd, it's simply a different opinion.
  6. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    The notion that Anakin didn't really love Padme is absurd. It completely undermines the entire Saga. The reason Luke can get through to Vader is because he's his son, the child born from he and Padme's love. There's nothing whatsoever to suggest that it wasn't real love. Lucas says over and over that they loved each other, the point is that on Anakin's end it grew to be unhealthy and dangerous. It has nothing to do with a cheering crowd either. He needed to feel that love and have that attachment because of his upbringing. He never totally fit into the Jedi and with Padme he could actually be himself. Love is a crucial element for a tragic hero, and both Lucas and Campbell made very sure that the Anakin/Vader fit it perfectly. False love doesn't cut it. The love story didn't work for everyone, but that doesn't mean that Lucas didn't intend it to be a real pure love that Anakin felt toward Padme, a love that was tragically corrupted.

    I agree. All you have to do is listen to George's comments in the Commentary. He says repeatedly that the point and purpose of ROTS scenes between Anakin and Padme is to show how much they loved each other and how that love would be twisted by Palpatine to suit his own purposes.
  7. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    In the original trilogy books, we get some additional insight into Vader. Some memories, some feelings and it is the first time that Vader of the film (voted in the top 10 list of most biggest, baddest bad guys) can realistically be seen as human rather than the killing machine he is perfectly designed for and as in the final 3 films. We are not supposed to sympathize with that character. We are to fear him, hate him. It is only with the prequels, that we see how he became and are allowed to understand. And allowed to be sorry for him.

    I don?t want you to change your opinion. There has to be a group who believe totally in what these two had was real, good and everlasting. It will find its place in storytelling as a great, tragic love story. And I?ll read it over and over again.


    But guys... trust. He didn't trust her. Ok, I'll capitulate. He had for her that unhealth, obsessive, controlling love. The kind we see in killers. How's that?
  8. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    its a dirferrent opinion but its also like saying that luke didnt love leia or han or obi wan...is in fact kind of absurd
  9. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    I thought we were talking about Anakin? The original trilogy character not only loved eachother....but trusted eachother, without question. They bounced ideas and plans off eachother and together chose what their next step would be.
  10. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    I'm 100% with you, Nefertiti. Your suggestions are not absurd.

    Anakin became immediately attached to Padme once he left Tatooine. Then that attachment developed into a longing as he matured and once he finally met with her again after 10 years, it was easy for him to develop romantic feelings on top of his attachment.

    They may have had romantic feelings and experienced some bliss while spending time together on Naboo, but that quickly changed when they decided to live a dangerous lie and from that moment their relationship was mired with negative emotion and they never experienced pure love thereafter. In the end their relationship was driven by codependency and Padme was in love with one idea and Anakin was obsessed with another.

    There was fear, distrust, jealousy, disharmony, greed, lies - between both of them. It overshadowed whatever precursor attachment and romantic feelings they had. They may have stolen a few moments of peace and comfort, but ultimately, darkness dominated their relationship - even before Anakin turned.
  11. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    How do you back that up? All we see in the films is them getting married at the end of AOTC, clearly she has forgiven his earlier indescretions, and then the obvious love between them when they first meet in ROTS. It isn't until Anakin is in the midst of turning, after that initial meeting, that there is any such negativity. Every mention of their relationship in the Clone Wars EU is all about how much they miss and love each other. Obi-Wan knows, but leaves it alone. It even goes so far to say that Anakin wants to leave the Order after the CW and live with Padme on Naboo. Of course they have their differences, every couple does. Anakin doesn't like politics and he's too enamored with Palpatine. It was indeed Anakin's fear, distrust and greed that brings about his downfall, and ruins their relationship, but these do not truly emerge until the ball starts rolling in ROTS.
  12. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    Obsession is not always a bad thing. It can motivate people to do great things. To be more than they are or could be. It wasn?t wrong that the 10 year old Anakin find in Padmé the hero she was and to fixate on her. Want to be like her. With her. It was sweet to see them talking and just being people. When he gave her the snipet, you can almost see that it?s not going to be good for them. Right there don?t you want to jump in and have that ?talk? with them? But somewhere in between ? during those ten years ? Anakin changed. Palps influence. Anakin own insecurities. The Jedi?s lack of attention. But he still had that hero worship for Padmé. She was still the one thing that didn?t change ? except to grow more beautiful.

    But you can?t build on lies. If ?man, so many ifs. If they wanted to be together he should have left the Order. But, he wasn?t going to do that. Ambition. There are rules in every society. If the rules don?t work. If they are unjust. Outdated. Change them. To blithely break them and not foresee consequences?? These kids never had a chance. But I wanted them to. Oh, yes. I did.
  13. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    "How long is it going to take for us to be honest with each other?"
    "Perhaps Obi-Wan can help?" "We don't need his help!"
    "I don't believe that, and you're sounding like a Seperatist!"
    "Ani don't do this, don't shut me out"
    "Ani, I won't die - I promise you" "-No, I promise you!"

    This is all before the turn. Anakin doesn't respect Padme anymore, or the ball would never have started rolling in the first place. He never once listens to her and sets his mind on what he feels is best for her from the moment he sees her. In both the novel and the unedited script he's distrustful and quick to anger with her from the moment he sees her. When he senses that she's hiding something from him he shakes her up and demands to know if there is someone else and this contineous throughout the movie. Those are not actions from a loving husband - they're from a paranoid and confused man.

    He obeyed her wishes in AotC when she told him to back off, but not in RotS. What we see is Padme desperately trying to reach out to Anakin, and him very blatantly ignoring everything she throws at him. I mean come on, he's actually suprised that Padme opposes the war so strongly? It seems like he barely remembers the woman he once married - all he sees is the woman he wants her to be.

    A part of him loves her, truly. But that part is buried just as much, if not more, as the part that realizes he's not the Jedi he should be, the part that realizes he's going down a dark path. He loves her - but either he's forgotten how to express it, or, as he later says himself, he simply isn't interested in love, hers or his, anymore.

    - O_F
  14. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Obi Frans - You said everything so well.

    Anakin is married to the Dark Side now.
    Padme is just a posession. He wants her because he wants.

    As almost everyone else has said, Skywalker's love was a selfish, posessive love.

    Padme's love for Anakin was true. She placed herself in danger. She was willing to give up everything for him.

    BUT...here is where she is different. Padme would not follow his path, however much she loved him.

    I bemoaned Padme's scenes in ROTS...all but this one. In those final moments, we once see Padme at her best. She cries for what the terrible deeds her husband has done - she loves him still...but she will not follow him.

    I was greatly saddened by her death. I was hoping she would live for the children.

    I have a question for all of you...

    GL kept switching the scenes from Padme's labor and Vader's transformation into the suit.

    Do you think there was a connection between Anakin and Padme so that she also felt his pain from the burns and trauma??

    Do you think his pain, and the pain of childbirth are what killed her?

  15. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    All love is a bit unhealthy, as we as humans tend to lose our better judgement when we fall in love. For better or worse. It's very easy to stand back afterwards and say, "I shouldn't have done that", or, "I need to end this." But we don't think clearly when we are in love and Anakin and Padme were no different.

  16. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    "Love is blind."

    and also deaf and dumb...

    Anakin did not hear a word Padme said to him.

    He was drunk on the Dark Side. He was on a high.

    The look in his eyes, the expression on his face when he said he could depose Palpatine and they could rule the galaxy together.
  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Very true. So very true. Anakin loved the idea of Padme, more than he actually loved her. That's not to say that he didn't love her as a human being at all. He was more in love with the fantasy than with the reality. In the novelization for AOTC, we see that Anakin has an ideal lifestyle that he wants. Something that can never really be, even if he were not a Jedi and Padme a Senator.

    Han and Leia knew the reality of their situations and had no grand expections on who they wanted and how they wanted to be with that person. Han didn't care that Leia was a princess, a senator, a rebel and a Skywalker. All he cared about was her and the possibility of being more than just friends. Leia was initially concerned with the type of guy she was with. She liked nice men, but didn't have much use for scoundrels. She wanted someone who was much like her in many ways. Eventually, she let go of that ideal image and took Han for who and what he was. He did change from a scoundrel into a great man. A general and full fledged rebel, but it was a decision that he made on his own. Not because she wanted him to be that way. Neither objected to the other's lifestyle anymore. Han even was willing to accept that he couldn't be with Leia, if she loved Luke.
  18. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    Han and Leia... they are a good example of unconditional love at work. Anakin and Padme placed certain conditions on the success of their relationship and each had their own idea of what was in their best interest. They were never on the same page on any issues.
  19. Jedi-Queen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2005
    star 4
    "But we don't think clearly when we are in love and Anakin and Padme were no different."

    uh yeah, slaughtering people and choking your spouse take Ani
    way off the normal scale IMO lol

    sithr; yeah I know but Luke didn't love them selfishly or try
    to deceive, hurt [choke] any of them. ;)
  20. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    Well, also that "not thinking" period usually wears off after 3 - 6 months as the love matures. Ani and Padme's love never seemed to reach that state. Perhaps because they just didn't get to spend enough time together or perhaps because of their relationship's clandestine nature but (being married twice myself) they come across more like a couple of high school kids than a married couple to me.

    Except, I must admit, for the scene where Padme tells Ani about the baby. That rang true and awww, my heart just broke for them there. "This baby is a blessing..." :_| (See I'm just a softie after all. :D )
  21. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    uh yeah, slaughtering people and choking your spouse take Ani way off the normal scale IMO lol

    This is a movie. Just a reminder, there. ;)
  22. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    I like to think that Lucas purposely let the questions in their relationship stand, to provoke conversation about it. Anakin?s ideas about love, what it was, how is was, what it felt like were different than Padme?s. As are our own ideas about love. Foundationally, he wasn?t honest with her. He made the decision in their relationship. She was to do what she was told ? and that wasn?t Padmé. The separation only added to the mistrust?and let?s not forgot Palpatine?s power over him.

    Always enjoyable to hear old ideas refurbished and re-presented. Extremely enjoyable.


    Jedi-Momma - I agree. Though he "seemed" to hesitate (as generally men do, yes?) I believed his happiness.
  23. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Ok....Anakin is a handsome devil...and we probably would be (ladies) attracted to him.

    But would you stay with the fellow?

    What favorable personality characteristics does the fellow have?

    1 At 1 time he was generous.

    2 At 1 time he was unselfish.

    Both attributes vanished, submerged under the Dark Side.
  24. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    Believe me - they do :D! Even when they're expecting the news they get that 'Oh. my. god. What have we gotten ourselves into?' look on their faces the first time. Well played by Hayden.
    (You should see the look they get when you tell 'em it's going to be twins [face_laugh]! Just as well she didn't lay that bombshell on him.)
  25. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    Hahaha LoL ... I can see poor Ani's face.. "Twins!"

    Qui-gon dropped into the Jedi laps the prophecied Chosen One (no argument). When you get a gift, you take care of it.

    Again with the ifs.... But if the Jedi had shown the right amount of care, cultivated his respect and gave him respect - Lucas might not have had a story to tell.

    If Anakin had opened his mouth and talked...really talked to his good friend, almost brother, maybe father-figure. Lucas might not have had a story to tell.

    If Padme, who trusted in Obi-1 had told him about the Sand people, about the couples feeling...hell, about the marriage even after it happened... Lucas might not be as wealthy as he is.

    And of course, Palpatine. Sublime emotional manipulation.

    And we, the audience, ponder, argue, agree and fuss over our own intrepretations.

    Ain't life grand!!

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.