Anakin, you idiot!

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by SithHappensIII, Jun 22, 2005.

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  1. AnnLouise Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2005
    star 3
    IMO, they also had some ability to think things through. It can't be laid all at the feet of Palpy. To quote Homer Simpson, "Marge, it takes two to lie; one to lie and one to listen." Anakin wanted to listen. He didn't take the effort to think anything through.
  2. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Thank God, Sids didn't get his hands on the twins!

    I wonder- think Vader would have taught the Dark Side to the twins...they could have then helped him overthrow Palpatine.

    Or

    Palpatine would have killed them...and Vader would have accepted it!
  3. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    If you're going to accuse Anakin of harboring an unhealthy and obssesive love for Padme, you might as well accuse Luke of harboring an obssessive love for Han and especially, Leia. It was because of both Leia and Han that Luke had foolishly interrupted his Jedi training to "rescue" them from Bespin. And it was Luke's love for Leia that caused him to snap and nearly kill Vader in a fit of rage.

    While we're at it, one might as well say that Obi-Wan's love for Qui-Gon was also obssessive and dangerous. It was due to his love for his mentor that Obi-Wan slipped into a fit of rage during his fight against Maul.
  4. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    [face_laugh] Oh, it's so true. Damn you George for turning us into such geeks. :p
  5. bariss Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 1

    But both Luke and Obi-Wan were able to let go of the anger and rage related to the fear of what might happen/had happened to those that they loved. When Obi-Wan is hanging in the pit in The Phantom Menace, the Force theme begins to play as he centers and calms himself before leaping and and slicing Maul. The music in Star Wars is subtext, I think, for what is happening in the story.:) I believe the Force theme playing while he is hanging in the pit represents Obi-Wan letting go of his anger.
  6. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    I agree. There is a stability in Luke and Leia's "growing" years that Anakin and to some extent, Padme didn't have. But in each problem situation we see a point where they think about solutions. Padme does...but her love for Anakin "blinds" her. Sometimes it works for me, sometimes it doesn't. Anakin certainly has less reason to "take" a breath and think, but he also doesn't have the security (internally) to do that. Stop and think.
  7. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    Big time agree. Williams must love these character as much as we do. So many piece were all that was needed in a scene. No words. The music. The faces. Perfect.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's apparent that Luke had an unhealthy attachment to his friends in TESB. He's not willing to accept that there are possibilities, which a Jedi deals in. A Sith deals in absolutes. For a Sith, the future will happen no matter what. How you shape it plays a part in it coming true. A Jedi sees that the future is always in motion and accepts that it might change. Case in point, Obi-wan's wearing his robe in the vision of Padme dying, but he's not when it comes to pass.

    What saves Luke in ROTJ is that he sees his attachments and comes to understand how they can be used against him. He wants to keep moments frozen in time. He wants Han and Leia to live, even if it ruins their years of hard work and sacrifice. He wants Leia to avoid becoming a Jedi, so that she won't have to face their father. He wants to protect Leia from becoming a Sith Lord. He thinks that he can save the Alliance by giving into his anger and hate, because he knows that he's not strong enough to stop the Sith as a Jedi would. But Luke has the knowledge of what came before, when he looks at his hand and then his father's. He hears Palpatine's taunt. He knows the truth now and refuses to accept the lies that he has been told. He lets go of everything and throws away his weapon, making a calmer and more rational decision.

    As Lucas says, the Skywalker men are very much alike. Both are faced with situations that are either the same or very similar. Anakin says yes, but Luke says no.

    Anakin=The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
    Luke=The road not taken.
  9. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    Agree...except to the "unheathly" attachment. Yes, Luke did have attachments, but don't believe that they were unhealthy. He was not a Jedi when he became friends with these people and as he did become Jedi, I like to think he saw the error in that thinking. Yes, he made the decision to stop his training and help Leia and Han in ESB, but that decision wasn't selfish...it wasn't to his benefit. He didn't gain, except to keep them alive. Others didn't suffer because of his decision.

    Vader's decisions would benefit him (or so he thought, his decisions made others suffer. So, for that one word... I agree with your post.
  10. bariss Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 13, 2003
    star 1

    I think a part of what happened to Luke there is supposed to show the dangers of rushing in to all concerned due to attachments and fear for loved ones when Force visions of the future come into play. As is said to Luke when he returns to Dagobah, he didn't help anyone. Leia and others had to rescue him.
  11. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    But it did almost happen, Leia had to risk her, and Chewie/Lando's, lives to turn back and go and save Luke.

    He didn't achieve anything by going to ESB, and he risked getting his sister either killed or taken captive - the very thing he set out to prevent, which is the same thing Anakin did. Killing Padme even though he started out trying to prevent it.

    - O_F
  12. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but luke was never worried about his own well being or how losing his friend would affect him,he was worried about "them".he went to bespin to save "them" not because of his own selfish desires as anakin.

    motivation and not the outcame is what matters
  13. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4

    Luke didn't use the Dark side in order to help his friends stay alive. Anakin did, and to me that makes all the difference. :)
  14. Nefertiti Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2004
    star 4
    The motivation for both the Skywalker boys was very different.

    Anakin's wanted - very general - Padme safe, restoration of the Republic and peace. He used whatever was available to achieve these goals (but didn't - thats the wheel going around).

    Luke's relationship with Leia and Han was equal between them. They argued, razzed eachother but each had a value to the other. It's apparent whenever we see them. Leaving his training to help them could be seen as "self-sacrific" - could be seen. I have to continue to disagree that his relationship was unhealthy.

    But it does bring up another thought. The Jedi fell because the Chosen One joined the other side; a major reason he went that way is because of the Jedi out-dated (IMO) "no attachments" policy. The two Masters, in exile ponder and piece together Anakin's story, as we must assume they do. But in ESB, both Yoda and Ben continue to talk about attachments....leading to the darkside, etc... Didn't they learn? Why didn't they learn? Is it still that old Jedi arrogance?

    Being close to people, loving people and being loved is a basic need. Qui-gon's intrepretation of the Living Force (the one the Jedi didn't want to acknowledge) doesn't close the Jedi off, but opens them to new experience. Something they sadly needed.

    We learn at home as we grow how to interact with people. Our homelife prepares us for heartbreak and great joy. Introduces us to loss and gains. How to let go and move on. If you don't learn how to address these issues you become damaged. Emotionally. Anakin was damaged. And incapable of problem-solving on an emotional level. Unlike Luke, who wasn't hampered by usless Jedi dogma.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi never say that they cannot love another person. They are encouraged to love, which Anakin tells Padme. But they cannot become attached to people. As it's defined by Lucas and the Jedi, attachment is where you cling to a person or a situation. Wanting to keep moments frozen in time. It's a desire to keep that which you have and never want to give it up, even when it may not have been meant to be.

    What happens to Anakin is that he confuses compassionate love with possessive love. He loves others, but he's concerned with how he's affected if or when change comes. Anakin doesn't like the idea that his world is going to change. Shmi told him that he cannot stop the change. He must accept it when it comes. Padme tells him that many things will change, once they reach Courscant, but she will still care for him. Anakin doesn't believe in that. Either one. He believes that things should stay the same. And when he fear of change grows, it leads to all kinds of trouble. He has done something bad at the start of ROTS. He's afraid that he might get into trouble if the Council questions him about it. Then Padme lays a big bombshell on him. He's going to be a daddy. Deep down he's afraid now. He doesn't realize at first. He's afraid that something will happen as this is an uncertain time now. He's afraid that things will change. He might not get to stay as a Jedi. Padme might not be able to remain as Senator for Naboo. His life will be turned upside down. And when you bring fears into a situation, it leads to things like a vision. Anakin sees a future that he refuses to accept, but is unaware that it's due to his desire to keep people from dying. Anakin wants to keep the change from coming and in doing so, he causes all kinds of change. The Jedi are dead. The Sith rule the Republic and have turned it into an Empire. He is maimed and trapped in the suit. Padme dies and he thinks that his children have died with him. All because of his attachment to Padme. Because he couldn't accept change and accept that he's not all powerful.

    Luke goes into this same thing. Luke finds that he has power now as a Jedi, but he's not ready to be a Jedi yet. He has yet to control his power. He's afraid of fighting Vader, who has destroyed Obi-wan and his father. His fears lead to that confrontation in the tree-cave. His anger and hate result in his attacking Vader and killing him. Later, he has a vision of his friends suffering. Instead of listening to his mentors who warn him that nothing is for certain about this, he rushes off to help his friends. He is warned that he might be lost to the Dark Side, if he goes. That he will not honor his friends, who are made to suffer only to drag him out of hiding, by going to them. They will not give up Luke's location, even if they knew. When he shows up, Leia tells him that it's a trap. It's a warning to get the hell outta there. Forget about them for now. But he doesn't listen. He thinks that he can still do this, regardless of what they think. True, he survives the trap and is injured as a result of fighting his father before he's ready. But this was a fight that need not have happened yet. Instead of finishing his training and waiting for the Force to present a solution, he rushes headlong and gets spanked for it. Later, Luke finds that he has a sister and that it's Leia. Now he doesn't want her to fight the Sith. He doesn't want her to turn or be killed. He doesn't think that he's ready for this confrontation with the Sith, particularly his father. He's filled with fear and doubt, because he knows that he made a mistake in running off. Now he has to do this and he's afraid he will fail. Moreso when he discovers it's a trap. One that has a grave consequence. Luke doesn't want to lose his friends and doesn't want to lose the Alliance. So he gives into his dark feelings.

    In the end, as I've said, Luke is saved because he realizes his mistakes. He realizes that in his effort to protect Leia from something that she may have to do anyway, he takes after his father with the Dark Side. Luke realizes t
  16. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    The Jedi never say that they cannot love another person. They are encouraged to love, which Anakin tells Padme. But they cannot become attached to people...


    Can someone explain this to me please?

    I can understand for example the love Mother Theresa of Calcutta had for people...is this a similiar love the Jedi are suppose to have for all beings?

    Love is a basic need for us. I'm not just talking about physical love, but we could not be healthy individuals if we did not love.

    Attachments - Yoda sounded so cold when he was telling Anakin to put away his attachments.

    If the Jedi had a little more understanding and allowed attachments the tragedy could have been avoided.

    Reading the comics, I see that a few authors have given the Jedi secret 'attachments.'

    I'm not familiar with EU, but does not Luke realize this and allow attachments. Does he not marry?
  17. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I can understand for example the love Mother Theresa of Calcutta had for people...is this a similiar love the Jedi are suppose to have for all beings?

    on the spot zara.

    but luke marrying has nothing to do with attachments.all he has to do is let go when the one he loves has to go.he already learned to let go so he should not have a problem
  18. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Ah, so Anakin could not let go...he saw Padme's death....but by his own actions did he not cause her death?

    ...and THAT's another thing...

    What about that vision? Could that had been Sith influenced? Could Palpatine cause Anakin to have that vision?


  19. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    palpatine causing the vision or not has been discussed many times without any conclusive answer
  20. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    Oh! Ok...I didn't know that...well for my .10 I think Sids caused it.

    He was to blame for everything else![face_devil]
  21. Dezdmona Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2005
    star 4
    There were two visions - one where Padmé was begging Anakin for help and the second where Obi-Wan was telling her to hold on...

    As Anakin was seeking more control over Padmé's fate, the vision changed.
  22. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    great point Dez...think about it i will [face_thinking]
  23. LadyZaraMarta Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 21, 2004
    star 5
    That is very true, Dezdmona.

    Amidala was calling for Anakin to help her....
  24. _Sublime_Skywalker_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2004
    star 4
    Well Anakin wasn't really the smartest with that kinda stuff...obv Palp was evil.
  25. Lyvia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2005
    star 2
    Anakin has to be the biggest idiot in cinema history, people are deceived by lies everyday ie. Europe in WWII and the US with GWBush, but there is more work put into it than just
    Palpatine: "Anakin join the darkside"
    Anakin: "No"
    Palpatine: "Anakin join the darkside"
    Anakin:....umm"No"
    Palpatine: "Anakin join the darkside"
    Anakin: "Ok why not"
    Come on use a brain cell chosenone
    And Luke's love for Leia and Han is nothing like Anakins obsession for Padme, take note ANAKIN MURDERED INNOCENT PEOPLE for his supposed love for her. That's gone beyond love and is going into obsession; there's also the point that if Anakin had every thought about his wife's feelings he would never have killed the children.
    As for Luke all he did was rush to his friends safety and nearly got himself killed..he didnt get anyone else hurt in the process, plus he learned immediately from his mistake. It took Anakin 21years(thats how old I think the twins are in ROTJ) to realize his mistakes. What Luke does in ESB is close to what Anakin wanted to do in AOTC when he wanted to screw everything and save Padme. There's certain levels of stupidity that can be sympathized with, but going on a massacre isnt on that level.
    I dont think Leia and Luke are similar to P*A, Leia and Padme had similar upbringings Leia's upbringing was even more stressful seeing as how she is in the middle of a war, and sees her planet destroyed and becomes a leader in a war. Luke had a more stable upbringing than the other 3 but upbrining cant be the excuse for what Anakin does; people need to stop blaming his stupidity and mistakes on others and place the blame on the person it belongs with...Anakin. As I have said many times, Anakin had every advantage; plucked off a remote desert planet, goes to the bit city of Courascant which is now his home, fulfills his dream of becoming a jedi and gets the girl of his dreams and is also a war hero.Thats not such a bad life.
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