Anakin's Fall: Too Fast?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by MJedi, Jun 2, 2005.

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  1. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    "Are you going to kill me?"

    "I'd certainly like to."

    Anakin attaches himself to Palpatine for 2 reasons:

    (1) to find the power to save Padme (duh);

    (2) to end the conflict and bring peace to the galaxy. Anakin doesn't like war, and now that Padme is pregnant, he wants the fighting to stop.

    Once Anakin realizes Palps is the Sith Lord, I think his PERSONAL allegiance to Palpatine as a friend and mentor is greatly dissipated.

    It's more of a relationship of CONVENIENCE for Anakin.

    Remember, he says "I pledge myself to your teachings" - not a ringing endorsement of Palpatine. :p

    Then 30 minutes later, he tells Padme he's more powerful than the Chancellor.
  2. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    What kind of advice is that? They know Anakin, they should know that kind of stuff doesn't work on him

    I've seen this reaction to Yodas advice alot, and while i understand it - what would you have Yoda say RS?

    He knows, more than anyone, how far Anakin can tap into the darkside. But he can't sugarcoat fate, not in such drastic times - there's, simply, very little else that Yoda could've said/done in this instance. And even though he lacks a certain tact - the little green guy is a 100% right. What he says, is exactly what Anakin should've learned in AotC when Shmi died right after smiling at Anakin. It's what Anakin will learn when he, himself, finds himself dying in Lukes arms.

    I also don't understand why people give Mace so much flack for leaving Anakin at the temple. Again, he lacks major tact in the way he adresses it to Anakin, but his decision is a 100% correct. Anakin was severely conflicted about Palpatine, and that's the last thing one needs when confronting a Sith Lord.

    Palpatine wanted Anakin to think Mace was doing something wrong, so whether he went or not - it would've ended up in a fight, and Mace would still make the move to kill Sidious. There's simply no way he'd accept Sidious to take the trials, that's a ridiculous notion for such a mighty Sith Lord and even Anakin understands that (Dooku anyone?). So Anakin would still have to make a choice, and everyone, except the Jedi, knows what choice Anakin would've still ended up making.

    Anakin falling to the darkside isn't, and could never be, based on a decision. Him turning to the darkside is, that's what happens in a heartbeat - it happened with the Tuskens, it happened to Luke when Vader threatened his sister and it happened to Anakin when he turned on Mace.

    His actual fall takes place over some four years. The second he believes he has failed to save his mother is, imo, the second he starts falling to the darkside. In parallel to Dooku, it isn't based on political ideals or disagreements with the Jedi at all, imo. He doesn't get along with Mace, Obi said some mean things to him in AotC, Yoda gave him lackluster advice etc etc all has very little to do with his turn.

    In fact, he rejects Palpatine everytime he tries discrediting the Jedi, he spends most of RotS defending them from Palpatines accusations. It happens in the opera-scene and Palpatine is visibly annoyed by this - that's when the old bugger pulls out the "Plagueis's power" card. And that's what Anakin's basing his turn on.

    He doesn't think the Jedi are evil when he sees Mace going for the kill. He doesn't think Palpatine is a good, honourable and friendly politician when Mace goes for the kill (as Garth pointed out ;) ). He doesn't hate Obi-Wan or Yoda when Mace goes for the kill.

    He thinks his wife and unborn child will die when Mace goes for the kill, he thinks what happened to Shmi will repeat itself when Mace goes for the kill, he thinks Palpatine can prevent that when Mace goes for the kill.

    That's what makes it so human and that's what the prequels (Yoda in particular) has been trying to tell all this time - Fear can be a destructive force (pun intended), when it's target has these abilities.

    It's not codes, rules or ethics that drive Anakin to make this decision - it's an emotion.

    His fall isn't him turning on his brothers, that's his decision. His fall is Anakin not being able to control himself anymore, and that doesn't happen until the very end of the movie.

    That's not fast at all, imo ;)

    - O_F
  3. stormcloud8 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 4
    I actually think that the speed of his fall makes it all the better. He is not thinking straight, clearly confused, but driven only by his obsession with Padme. Thus in a moment of truth he shows weakness, and makes the wrong move. From then on, there was no going back. And even if he had decided to repent for helping to murder Mace, his life would have been over. Palpatine would have had him executed as a part of Order 66, or if Palpatine had been arrested somehow, Anakin would have gone down with him. In for a penny, in for a pound, isn't that the saying? By helping to murder a Jedi, in essence he had already pledged himself to the Sith. In order for him to live and save Padme, he needed to continue on with the Sith.

    I think the fall is laid out clearly throughout I and II, and especially if you watch AOTC again with the viewpoint that he's really not a very good guy, it makes perfect sense. In AOTC he is defiant and rebellious and self-centered and obsessed with Padme, and at one point he is downright evil. I admire George all the more for how he laid out the fall in TPM and AOTC.

    In that moment in the chancellor's office, he joined the dark side, and as we know from Master Yoda, once you start down that path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
  4. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I've seen this reaction to Yodas advice alot, and while i understand it - what would you have Yoda say RS?

    There's alot more Yoda could have done, and I'm in no way trying to dump blame on anyone other than Anakin, but those around could have been more flexible. The Jedi's rigidity is their downfall. They were totally rigid with Anakin, hence Yoda's words of advice to him- they were exactly what he would have told any other Jedi. But Anakin isn't some other normal Jedi. They all know that, they know how volatile he is and how passionate. Giving him rote advice, like "let go of your attachments" will only do more harm than good. Anakin needs a good sitting down, and an honest, open conversation, which is why he's driven to Palpatine, the Jedi just don't do that. Obi-Wan knows, and he tries to the best of his ability, he really just does want Anakin to be happy, and he lets the Padme thing slide though he knows about it. Unfortunately nobody realized just how dangerous it would become.

    Yes, by all logicial reasoning, it was better for Mace not to take Anakin. However, if he let him, it would have shown Anakin that the Masters trust and believe in him. He would have seen that the Jedi try to arrest him first and Palpy cuts them down mercilessly. Anakin would have felt a part of a bigger picture- the powers of good collectively bringing down evil. Granted, Anakin desperately doesn't want them to kill Sidious, which is why he wants to go in the first place, but who knows? The exact same thing could have happened as it ended up, or maybe Anakin would have realized how truly evil Palpy is and done the right thing, it's impossible to say really.

    It's not codes, rules or ethics that drive Anakin to make this decision - it's an emotion.

    Anakin tragic flaw is indeed fear. It is fear that ultimately drives his actions and sets up his fall. However, it is because of situations that he's become so fearful in the first place. It's not codes, rules or ethics per se, but the Jedi most definitely play a part in this. It's a circular argument, with no real answer, but the Jedi tragic flaw is inflexibility and an inability to adapt to the present time, and those who embody it- namely Anakin. They absolutely cannot handle him, despite his desire to be a good Jedi and his defense of the Order, he has never been "normal", and they've never been able to properly control him. And the Jedi should have been able to deal with that.
  5. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    "hey were totally rigid with Anakin, hence Yoda's words of advice to him- they were exactly what he would have told any other Jedi. But Anakin isn't some other normal Jedi. They all know that, they know how volatile he is and how passionate. Giving him rote advice, like "let go of your attachments" will only do more harm than good. Anakin needs a good sitting down, and an honest, open conversation, which is why he's driven to Palpatine, the Jedi just don't do that."


    I partially agree with this. I think if Anakin actually had someone he knew he could sit down, be honest with, and expect help (not condemnation), things might have been different. But even Obi-Wan, he might have ignored some things with Padme, but he never (at least that we've seen) openly confronts Anakin with it and tries to work with him.
  6. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    Personally, I'm amazed Anakin held out as long as he did.
  7. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    SixEagle: I did respond to your question. When Obi-Wan confronted him, Anakin started believing that Palpatine was right after all. I don't think it feels weird at all.
    He had convinced himself that what Palpatine was saying was true, to justify his actions. The confrontation with Obi-Wan pushed him over the edge and made him believe it for real.



    Yep
    /LM
  8. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    He would have seen that the Jedi try to arrest him first and Palpy cuts them down mercilessly.

    Mace: "You are under arrest, my lord"
    Palpatine: "Anakin! I told you it would come to this!..."

    He actually does witness Mace trying to arrest Palpatine, he also sees the dead Jedi (especially if you would take the novel into account). He knows what/who Palpatine really is, and what he's done - he even tells him that he would very much like to kill him the scene before this one.

    Now, i'm not denying that Anakin did feel estranged/alienated from the Jedi - but that, imo, has little to do with his turn. The Jedi could never have given him what he wanted here - the Jedi could never have given him what he wanted when Shmi died. Which is raw, idealized and unhealthy, power. The power to cheat death, the desire to overcome death, "the ultimate form of greed" as George calls it. That's why i don't see how "there's a lot more Yoda could've done", because all he could do to Anakin was talk to him - and Anakin didn't want talk, he wanted action. Yoda, or anyone of the Jedi couldn't do this - there's just no way, not even Padme could do talk some sense into him, he refuses to listen to any of them.

    I think if Anakin would have had to learn to overcome this, it had to happen either before or at the moment Shmi died. And sadly, although i love the prequels more than anything, we never got to see what went wrong. All we know, from AotC, is that he feels that the Jedi are "holding him back" from becoming more powerful. That's very vague, and perhaps intentionally so, when we try to fill in the gap between TPM and AotC. Perhaps, because Anakin missed Yoda's "Youngling Classes" Yoda should've done something then, Mace should've done something etc etc i have no idea what happened there, which is unfortunate :(

    I do agree with George when he says Qui-Gon made a wrong decision in cheating to free and take Anakin with him, even if he does end up saving the galaxy - perhaps that's why i don't agree with the Jedi failing to know how to handle Anakin. Because from what i see, they DID handle him correctly, not perfectly (that's impossible), but "correctly" - Anakin knows better than what he's doing, what he's going to do. "I'm a Jedi, i know i'm better than this" - the Jedi teachings HAVE gotten through to him, he just, in the end, refuses to accept them.

    The major failure i'd lay on the Jedi Order itself is it's adapting to the the Republic and the will of the force (which can be lead back to Anakin, but i feel that they should've adapted to this before Anakin even came into their order), outside of the Sith they can only blame themselves for this - and they do/should. But in regards to Anakin, imo nobody failed him - he failed himself. He had everything he wanted/needed, he had a remarkable standing within the Jedi Order, he had "brothers and sisters" who admired him and willingly put their lives in his hands (except for Mace), he had a wife who loved him and who's only need was to be loved back etc etc - and he had unborn children who would need him in their lives (and they still do, at the end).

    That's the tragedy, to me, he had everything but was too blind by fear to see it. That's why i love that the, much speculated, death of Padme doesn't set him on this path, it's the thought of her dying that drives him insane. He chose to give it all up....for, literally, nothing.

    Now, to get this thread back on topic :p , i think that if so much debate can be sparked over one turn - it can never be "too fast" at all ;)

    - O_F
  9. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Wow, this topic is getting exciting!

    storm - I agree with the speed of events, whirling out of control. The more I watch ROTS, the more I sympathize with Anakin - "where's your head at?" Obviously not in a good place.

    Regarding Yoda's advice - it wasn't very different from what he told Luke in ESB, is it? People say Yoda and Ben learn so much from the events in the PT, but their teachings haven't changed all that much - and it's still up to personal choice.

    YODA: (shaking his head) Hmm. Control, control. You must learn control.

    LUKE: I saw...I saw a city in the clouds.

    YODA: Mmm. Friends you have there.

    LUKE: They were in pain.

    YODA: It is the future you see.

    LUKE: Future? Will they die?

    Yoda closes his eyes and lowers his head.

    YODA: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

    LUKE: I've got to go to them.

    YODA: Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help
    them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought
    and suffered.

    Luke is stopped cold by Yoda's words. Gloom shrouds him as
    he nods his head sadly.

    LATER

    EXTERIOR: DAGOBAH -- BOG -- DUSK

    In the bright lights of the fighter, Luke loads a heavy
    case into the belly of the ship. Artoo sits on top of the
    X-wing, settling down into his cubbyhole. Yoda stands nearby
    on a log.

    YODA: Luke! You must complete the training.

    LUKE: I can't keep the vision out of my head. They're my friends. I've
    got to help them.

    YODA: You must not go!

    LUKE: But Han and Leia will die if I don't.

    BEN'S VOICE: You don't know that.

    Luke looks toward the voice in amazement. Ben has
    materialized as a real, slightly shimmering image near Yoda.
    The power of his presence stops Luke.

    BEN: Even Yoda cannot see their fate.

    LUKE: But I can help them! I feel the Force!

    BEN: But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when
    you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force.

    YODA: Yes, yes. To Obi-Wan you listen. The cave. Remember your failure
    at the cave!

    LUKE: But I've learned so much since then. Master Yoda, I promise to
    return and finish what I've begun. You have my word.

    BEN: It is you and your abilities the Emperor wants. that is why your
    friends are made to suffer.

    LUKE: And that is why I have to go.

    BEN: Luke, I don't want to lose you to the Emperor the way I lost
    Vader.

    LUKE: You won't.

    YODA: Stopped they must be. On this depends. Only a fully trained Jedi
    Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor.
    If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path,
    as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil.

    BEN: Patience.

    LUKE: And sacrifice Han and Leia?

    YODA: If you honor what they fight for...yes!

    Luke is in great anguish. He struggles with the dilemma, a
    battle raging in his mind.

    BEN: If you choose to face Vader, you will do it alone. I cannot
    interfere.

    LUKE: I understand. (he moves to his X-wing) Artoo, fire up the
    converters.

    Artoo whistles a happy reply.

    BEN: Luke, don't give in to hate -- that leads to the dark side.

    Luke nods and climbs into his ship.

    YODA: Strong is Vader. Mind what you have learned. Save you it can.

    LUKE: I will. And I'll return. I promise.

    Artoo closes the cockpit. Ben and Yoda stand watching as
    the roar of the engines and the wind engulf them.

    YODA: (sighs) Told you, I did. Reckless is he. Now matters are worse.

    BEN: That boy is our last hope.

    YODA: (looks up) No. There is another.



    It's still left up to the choice of the individual. Although, I will say that Yoda could have emphasized to Anakin that he doesn't know that Padme will die.

  10. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    Although, I will say that Yoda could have emphasized to Anakin that he doesn't know that Padme will die.

    But there's the real catch isn't it? - Anakin never tells/told Yoda it was Padme. That's the danger behind his secret, that stuff like this could happen.

    In the novel, Yoda even thinks Anakin is talking about Obi-Wan - which makes his comments even more meaningful, because Kenobi is like a son to him (no Kermit/female jokes please :p ).

    - O_F
  11. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Right. Fine. He could have emphasized the transistory nature of seeing the future, and how things can change. Or that, some things will happen, no matter how badly we want to change them. Well, I guess he kind of mentioned that regarding death, but he could have mentioned something about the TIME of death.
  12. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    He actually does witness Mace trying to arrest Palpatine, he also sees the dead Jedi (especially if you would take the novel into account). He knows what/who Palpatine really is, and what he's done - he even tells him that he would very much like to kill him the scene before this one.

    Yes, this is true, he does see Mace try, but from his point of view, Mace doesn't try very hard. A little Sith lightening later, and Mace is ready to kill him. The difference is all in numbers and camraderie. With the other 4 Masters Anakin would have been in a group which regarded him as a peer, he would have really felt part of the Council, which is exactly what he doesn't feel. He may have seen Palpatine kill, or try to kill them, and that could have put Anakin over the edge of good. Instead he's left with Mace, who doesn't trust him, and he sees him go from following the Code to wanting to kill Palps. I'm not surprised in this instance, that Anakin's loyalties went as they did.

    Anakin's problems start way before Shmi died, by that time it was probably too late, the Jedi could have never given him what he wanted. Right off the bat, when he first arrived at the Temple, they should have been more flexible with him. But instead they tried to fit a round peg into a square hole. Never had they gotten an initiate so old, and there was no precedence for how to train one, so they just treat him like everyone else. But Anakin has attachments. He automatically breaks Rule #1, and he can't help it. Everyone ignores that, they teach people to have no attachments, but they don't know how to teach someone who already has strong attachments to let go of them, especially a young child, especially the Chosen One. So he never learns it, and somehow he continues on for 10 years and nobody does anything about it, but give him useless advice like "let go of your attachments." It's already far too late, he needs a serious intervention and never gets one. I definitely think there was hope for him, if only someone was willing to bend the rules.

    Bend the rules, like they later do with Luke. By then they had learned. At least Obi-Wan has, because he's spent 20 years watching over Luke and seen his life. Here's where he learns how attachments can work for a Jedi. There IS a difference between what Yoda and Obi-Wan tell Luke in the OT and what they tell Anakin. Fundamentally, the Jedi teachings are the same, it's all about personal choice and looking at the greater picture... but they're so much more honest with Luke. They spell it out for him in a way they never did Anakin, because they expect him to act like any other Jedi who's been fed this dogma since he was born, who's never known life outside the Temple.

    YODA: Mmm. Friends you have there.

    LUKE: They were in pain.

    YODA: It is the future you see.

    LUKE: Future? Will they die?

    Yoda closes his eyes and lowers his head.

    YODA: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

    LUKE: I've got to go to them.

    YODA: Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help
    them you could. But you would destroy all for which they have fought
    and suffered.


    Yoda doesn't tell Luke to let go of his attachments. But that's exactly what he tells Anakin. You must let go of all that you fear to lose. Shadow of greed and all that. Anakin is not saying anything different than Luke, but they have learned that you can't just tell people with attachments to let go of them. You have to get through to them some other way. Here Yoda uses the tactic that Obi-Wan did with Anakin on Geonosis. He doesn't focus on the attachment issue, but on the importance of his friends' ideals.

    YODA: Luke! You must complete the training.

    LUKE: I can't keep the vision out of my head. They're my friends. I've
    got to help them.

    YODA: You must not go!

    LUKE: But Han and Leia will die if I don't.

    BEN'S VOICE: You don't know that.

    Luke looks toward the voice in amazement. Ben has
    materialized as a real, slightly shimmering image near Yoda.
    The power
  13. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Is it? We're talking about Anakin's fall, and surely Luke's journey parallels his father's, at least, "from a certain point of view".

    Part of the difference, Amanda, is that Anakin should know better. He's been trained for 13 years with Obi-Wan. Yes, he is too old to be trained with the usual Jedi methods, but you have to figure that he and Obi-Wan have had some good arguments along the way.

    Luke, on the other hand, has almost no training - it's the first time he's really gone "deep" into the Force and had his first vision. And of course, he's eager to save his friends... "Your feelings do you justice. But they can be made to serve the Emperor".

    I suppose it helps when they know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord.[face_laugh]

    If they found that out earlier, everything would be different.

    Imagine if Obi-Wan had gone with Mace and Anakin to confront Palpatine.
  14. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    I suppose it really isn't off topic... amazing how these dicussions go sometimes. ;)

    Yeah, Anakin intellectually does know better. Part of what makes Luke work I think, is his naivety. He hasn't been in the middle of the war, his vision of right and wrong has never been challenged. He doesn't have first hand knowledge of just how evil the Sith are. He doesn't know better, which oddly works to his favor.

    I'm sure Obi-Wan and Anakin did have some good discussions and arguments, it's unfortunate we see so little of them, even in the EU. But the beauty of ROTS is how explicity George shows that Obi-Wan loves Anakin. The idea that even the mighty Obi-Wan was blinded by his own love for the boy is amazing, and brings the tragedy to stunning heights.
  15. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    When Obi-Wan says "Good-bye, old friend", he doesn't know how right he is.



    :_|
    /LM
  16. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    Thanks for posting that transcript garth. I still think that had Vader not been related to Luke, Luke very well may have gone down the same path as his father. Difference is, Anakins attachments were working against him (doing anything he could to save Padme), whereas Luke attachment to his father is what ultimately helps him control his impulses, impulses which were clearly taking him down the dark side. Had Vader just been some schmo who murdered millions of people, I think Luke kills him in ROTJ, just like he tried to kill an unarmed Palpatine earlier in the movie.

    Them skywalkers and their attachments, i'll tell ya.

    " I suppose it helps when they know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord."

    Boy, doesn't it though?
  17. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    But the beauty of ROTS is how explicity George shows that Obi-Wan loves Anakin. The idea that even the mighty Obi-Wan was blinded by his own love for the boy is amazing, and brings the tragedy to stunning heights

    Definitely, i've made no secret (to the undelight of the A/P defenders as you may remember ;) ) that the Obi/Ani relationship has always been my favorite.

    And i truly feel that they are each others yin/yangs, they "complete" each other - Anakin would not have turned had Kenobi been there, Kenobi would never have become the great Jedi he is had Anakin not been there. Anakin needs, and has always needed, Obi-Wan in his life. He needs him even as Darth Vader, to always find a lynchpin ("This day has seen the end of Kenobi" "Obi-Wan has thaught you well" "Obi-Wan once thought as you did" "Obi-Wan was wise...his failure is now complete"), somebody to fall back on.

    Anakin raves and goes wild - but he never loses control when Obi-Wans around. To follow on Garths imagination - i don't believe, for a second, that Anakin would've turned against Obi-Wan, had he been in Mace's place or had he been present there. He doesn't think for a millisecond on leaving him behind on the Invisible Hand, and Palpatine is visibly disgusted by his behaviour. I think this, directly, leads to both of them feeling "somethings wrong" when Obi-Wan goes off to fight Grievous alone. Anakin wants to go with him, and Kenobis instinct tells him somethings not right - but he goes anyway, the one thing he should've learned from Qui-Gon is that sometimes, it's best to trust your gut instinct.

    Obi-Wan is Anakins conscience and vice verca, the last time they'll ever speak as friends shows us Anakin actually admitting to his own weaknes - and Obi-Wan admitting to Anakins greatness. It's what both persons have always wanted from each other. Sure, Anakin never told Kenobi about Padme - and Obi-Wan knows this, but i think that Anakin loved Obi-Wan too much to ever admit that he'd done this behind his back. And Obi-Wan loved Anakin too much to hold it against him, which is why he never throws it in his face.

    Had Obi-Wan been awake when Anakin defeated Dooku, Palpatine wouldn't have even bothered to egg him on to kill him - in fact, Dooku didn't say a word to Anakin while Obi-Wan was alive, because they knew it would be futile. Had Anakin gone with Obi-Wan to defeat Grievous, he wouldn't be walking around Coruscant with the constanct reminder of his nightmares - and a constant whisper in his ear that he "could" prevent it.

    So to keep it in line with the thread:

    One more factor in Anakins fall - he has no fatherly figure outside of Palpatine during the most pivotal moments of his life. It's important to note that everytime Kenobi/Anakin are seperated in the PT - things go horribly wrong for Anakin. Together they argue, they wine, they rant at each other etc etc but they're a team, and they're nearly unstoppable.
    In the EU Palpatine makes it a highly important factor to take Kenobi out of the picture before seducing Anakin.

    "We are indebted to you for your bravery, Master Kenobi"

    Palpatine delivers the most personally painful blow to Obi-Wan in turning Anakin - but Obi-Wan delivers the payback threefold in killing Maul, Grievous and training Luke :D

    - O_F
  18. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    " In the EU Palpatine makes it a highly important factor to take Kenobi out of the picture before seducing Anakin. "

    Yup. In LOE, Sidious specifically said that was Dooku's goal on the Invisible Hand, to take out Kenobi, because he didn't think Anakin would fall with Kenobi in the picture.

    [p170-171]
    Dooku: What would you have me do.
    ...
    Sidious: See to it that Obi-Wan Kenobi ceases to be an irritant.
    Dooku: He represents so forceful a threat to our plans?
    Sidious: [shakes head]. But Skywalker does. And Kenobi...Kenobi has been as a father to him. Orphan Skywalker once and for all, and he will shift.
    Dooku: Shift?
    Sidious: To the dark side.
    Dooku: An apprentice?
    Sidious: In good time, Lord Tyranus. All in good time.

    When I went back for the second viewing of ROTS, you could see Dooku take very little time before he goes for the kill on Obi-Wan, attempting to crush him. Then Palpatine insisting that they leave him behind.

    Not only could you see the love that Obi-Wan had for Anakin, but you could see it the other way as well. That's part of what made his fall so disheartening.
  19. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    And to follow up with the point on Luke, the brilliant thing is his conviction there's still a good man underneath this terrible armored machine man mass murderer.

    And, to use my classic example demonstrating the existence of the Will of the Force/destiny and free will in the GFFA, the Will of the Force guides Luke's arm to cut off his father's robotic hand...the same hand Luke has robotic. :D

    He's already starting to become like Vader.
  20. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    And to follow up with the point on Luke, the brilliant thing is his conviction there's still a good man underneath this terrible armored machine man mass murderer.

    And to make that even more brilliant, now it seems that Luke's conviction originally comes from his mother, who despite being Force choked and heart-broken by Anakin, still loves him and knows "there is still good in him", and seems to imprint that on her infant son.
  21. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    And to make that even more brilliant, now it seems that Luke's conviction originally comes from his mother, who despite being Force choked and heart-broken by Anakin, still loves him and knows "there is still good in him", and seems to imprint that on her infant son.

    And to make that even more brilliant, Luke has no idea how much he is like Padme. He's so sad when he tells Leia "i have no memory of my mother", but he's much more like Padme than he is, imo, like Anakin. Whereas Leia, who remembers Padme but has no idea about her father, is, imo, much more like Anakin then she is like Padme.

    It would've been nice had Obi-Wan, Yoda or perhaps even Anakin told him this - but alas, we cannot have it all.

    - O_F
  22. SabeForQueen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2002
    LOL, guys! "and to make it even more brilliant..." :)
    I guess you can tell we're all just a bunch of star-struck Star Wars fans here.

    Re: Obi Wan & Anakin's relationship, I agree 100% Even more powerfully sad than Padme's. Especially when you see how that relationship continues in the OT, with Vader destined to destroy Obi Wan and Obi Wan's training of Luke destined to destroy Vader, and the way Vader can't stop bringing up Obi Wan's name -- forget Yoda, Qui Gon, or Padme.

    Re: Luke Jedi Training vs. Anakin, I do agree that the Jedi changed their methods a little and became more wiser after thier destruction (as they ought have). Nonetheless, in my mind, this is not the critical difference between father & son. They seem to have different personalities (but I guess that's a nature vs. nurture debate). Luke is alot more like Obi Wan & Padme.
    His dreams of greatness were for another. He wanted his father to be great more than he wanted himself to be. Whereas we have Anakin saying "Someday I will be the most powerful Jedi ever" and Vader saying "Now I am the master", we have Luke saying "I want to become a Jedi like my father" and "You've failed Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
    At the Vader Pyre as the Force theme picks up and Luke's hair blows in a revisit to the Tatooine Sunset, it's amazing to see how Luke had dedicated himself to following his father's heroism and never lost track. As for Anakin. . . Anakin dedicated himself to holding onto his loved ones (but why doesn't he include Obi among that few?) and did lose track a few times, though he held on to Luke in the end.
    I wonder why Anakin couldn't hero worship Obi Wan the way Luke hero worshiped Anakin? Was it the resentment and realism of actually having to live with that person?

    (Yeah, I know I'm totallly off topic.) :(
  23. SixEagle Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 1
    "Luke had dedicated himself to following his father's heroism and never lost track"


    Oh, I think Luke lost track at points (completely disobeying the 2 remaining jedi masters orders, and putting the alliance at risk. his attack on vader after he mentions his sister. his attack on an unarmed palpatine out of hate. his dealings with the hutts). But he never crossed the line, which is the difference between him and his father.
  24. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    (Yeah, I know I'm totallly off topic.)

    Not at all :D

    The nature of understanding Anakin (and in this case, his difference with Luke) is fundamental in trying to apprehend why he was able to fall (as some claim, "too fast").

    His dreams of greatness were for another. He wanted his father to be great more than he wanted himself to be.

    That's an excellent point. Luke wants to help the rebellion, he wants Han to become a better person, he wants Anakin to become a better person, he wants Leia to be happy etc etc. This goes on from ANH to RotJ, that's a very significant contrast with Anakin, who only really shows this same pure spirit in TPM. I'd go as far as saying that the only persons he's truly "Lukewise" to are Luke, himself, and Shmi.

    Sure he wants Padme/Obi-Wan/theJedi to be happy in their own ways, but he always makes it clear that his own position regarding them comes first. He wants Padme to become his lover because he's in agony, he wants Obi-Wan/the Jedi to change suit so that he can become more powerful, he wants Padme to live because he can't live with out her. Again, sure he wanted Padme to live so that she could live life and be happy - but that's not his primary concern, his number 1 concern is that he doesn't want her to die because he won't be able to live without her.

    That's why the darkside came so natural to him, because the darkside is greed. And Anakin, somewhere between TPM & AotC, became greedy.

    I'm going to get off topic now, but i think there are 2 instances that could've/would've prevented all of the mess in RotS:

    1. Learn from Shmi's death. This is self-explaining, Anakin learned all of the wrong lessons here - again, instead of listening to Padme and the Jedi-way ("You're not all powerful/I'm a Jedi, i know i'm better than this") he went on and made insane promises to his mother (but really, himself).

    2. Qui-Gon should never have cheated Anakin out of slavery. That is too way off topic for me to explore here :p

    - O_F
  25. SabeForQueen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2002
    <i> 2. Qui-Gon should never have cheated Anakin out of slavery. That is too way off topic for me to explore here <i>

    Aw, Obi_Frans, you can't just stop there! If it's too off-topic, start a new thread. I kind of forgot about the role Qui-Gon has played in things -- how did he help push Anakin to the dark side?
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