Saga Anakin's ghost?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Vader's Chest Plate, Mar 21, 2013.

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  1. Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Sorry if this is covered somewhere but i can't find it (I didn't really look that hard to be honest);

    In RotJ Anakin has a force ghost - how?

    My understanding is that the force ghost was something that Qui-Gon learnt how to do, he then showed Obi-wan, who in turn showed Yoda......at what point did Anakin learn this ability?

    Isn't this what Obi-Wan references when he say "more powerful than you can ever imagine", hence Anakin was ignorant of this ability?
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader (and The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi)- as Vader's dying, Kenobi's spirit steps in, and offers Anakin's spirit a chance to learn that ability, before he fades.

    "But Master ... Why me?"
    "Because you ended the horror. Because you fulfilled the prophesy. Because you were ... and are, the Chosen One. Because I was wrong about you. And because you are my friend."
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  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I prefer thinking it's innate to Anakin pretty well choosing to die to save Luke. A lot has been made both in OOU statements, ROTJ, and the EU about how the lightning destroyed his life support systems-Anakin was doubtless aware that exposure to lightning was going to be lethal to him. That's a pretty big gesture of selflessness.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Depends on if you consider "dying to save someone you love" selfless or at least partially selfish.

    The RoTS novel suggests that only those who achieve real selflessness can do it - so maybe, in-universe, Vader's motives were selfless enough to qualify.

    Obi-Wan teaching him might still be required- but the moment of selflessness, ensures he can be taught.
  5. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I've always associated the "it's not selfless because it's his kid" argument to be thoroughly bizarre, myself. Don't see anyone dismissing real parents who have died saving their kids here on Earth being called selfish, do you? :p
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  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Some people argue it is, and say "This is why selfish motives are not inherently bad".

    They might be Objectivists or Heinlein fans though.

    Come to think of it, it's selfish in genetic terms as well- you don't save your kid- your genes won't be passed on unless you have another.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 21, 2013
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  7. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Eh, maybe. I don't seem to have noticed arguing from that first example, though-it mainly seems to be used as a reason to invalidate Vader from what I've seen.
  8. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Agreed completely. Also, it wasn't just his son that he saved in that moment. The Empire had control of, well, everything.
  9. Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    I'll accept either explanation, just always thought it was a bit of a grey area that the PT further complicated. Prior to PT (novel/graphic novel) I think most believed that ALL jedi had the ability to force ghost. There's nothing in the movies as such to contradict this, but you'd assume that they'd have a council of jedi ghosts to add their wisdom/experience to the jedi council that we see in the PT.
  10. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    When I was very young and saw The Phantom Menace for the first time I actually believed the same thing (that all Jedi fade away became Force Ghosts upon death). When I realized that Qui-Gon's body didn't disappear, I actually started thinking that he was a Sith and that that was his reasoning for being so adamant about having Anakin trained. :p

    But really, I love the depth that the prequels gave to the whole Force Ghost concept. It is, by far, one of my favorite elements of the saga and every time I watch the films I seem to pick up a new tidbit of information that I previously missed.
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  11. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I kinda dislike that concept, actually...omniscient ghost dudes robs films (and stories in general) of any possibility of suspense, IMO-at least, if they're doing much. You gotta keep your Invincible Forces Of Good restrained or it's impossible to have villains that represent a credible threat (assuming they're not immortal too); imagine if Obi-Wan was like the Spectre from DC...ROTJ would be done as far as impact.
  12. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    Lucas said on one of the DVD commentaries that Ben and Yoda helped Anakin do it once he died.
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  13. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3

    The current popular fan theory seems to be somehow resurrecting Darth Plagueius. I'm not particularly fond of resurrections myself, but I actually think that, somehow, he could actually work... Seeing him pop up would at the very least provide an interesting contrast between the Jedi and Sith philosophies on death. The Jedi transcend death in the form of Force Ghosts, whereas Plagueis would have cheated death and retained a physical body.

    Only thing, though, is that balance has been brought back to the Force as of Return of the Jedi... Maybe the sequels will expand on just what 'balance' means?
    Last edited by bstnsx704, Mar 21, 2013
  14. Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Yeah, it would have ruined the Luke:Vader action scenes if Obi-wan and Yoda just kept popping up, "Hey, Luke, hit him here....and here....and by the way watch your hand!" "Oi, Palpy baby, you forgot about us ghosts, we're going to haunt you like you'd never image, Secret Death star....nope we told Luke about it!" "Ani, AAaaanii, we told Luke what you did to his Momma, don't count on him laying down that lightsabre!"
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  15. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I prefer the Force being out of balance specifically due to Palpatine's existence..it changes him from the last in the line of a long, long line of Sith Lords, and more into a terrifyingly evil supernatural being. Subsequent Sith don't need (and haven't been) to be up to him; let him, and Anakin, be the defining moment in the conflict of good and evil.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Contradict" is a pretty strong word, but there is something in the movies which works against the notion. If ghosting were standard for all Jedi deaths, you'd think Vader as a former Jedi student would know that and certainly be able to imagine it - but Vader seems somewhat perplexed by Obi-Wan's disappearance.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 21, 2013
  17. bstnsx704 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2013
    star 3
    Oh, one other possibility to add to the discussion. Perhaps Anakin being the Chosen One and fulfilling his destiny assisted in some way in allowing him to transcend death without being directly taught the ability the way that Obi-Wan and Yoda were.
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  18. Darth Vader's Chest Plate Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Just thinking, if the force ghost was known by most Jedi after Qui-Gon's discovering it was possible, then Order 66 would have been wierd!!

    Palpatine with no knowledge of force ghosts puts out "order 66", clones start killing Jedi, their bodies vanish then ghosts appear.

    "Palpy,.... we have an issue with this order 66 thing.....their all g-g-g-ghosts!!!"
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  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's been said that he was directly taught the ability by Obi-Wan and Yoda.
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    When? That makes no sense whatsoever. Clearly he wasn't taught how to do it when he died on the DeathStar.
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
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    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 23, 2013
  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    So, clearly an outside explanation. Not something in the film saga itself.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But still on the DVD commentary.
  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    The only thing that matters to me is what is in the film, Lucas's contrived explanations carry no more weight than anyone else's. He has a tendency of making up all kinds of nonsense when confronted with his own plot holes.

    It's not what he says after the fact that counts, it's what the movie says.

    If anything, I think the most basic explanation of his choosing to die in a selfless way is a better explanation than any contrived "Obi Wan taught him even though we never saw it" type.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 23, 2013
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  25. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    It is somewhat disconcerting that Lucas' changing views and explanations has diluted his word over the years when answering some of these questions. The myth that he had all of this planned out in advance still persists among some in the fanbase. I assumed as a kid that Yoda and Obi-Wan helped him. However, I now like the idea that his supremely selfless act is what allowed him to become a Force ghost. This neatly connects Qui-Gon's explanation (in the ROTS novelization) and is a stark contrast with Anakin's actions leading to his fall (selfishness). That being said, I never thought that the Classic trilogy was about Darth Vader in 1983. So, I never even thought about how he accomplished that task when I first saw ROTJ.
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