Saga Anakin's ghost?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Vader's Chest Plate, Mar 21, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    When Return of the Jedi came out, there really wasn't this idea that becoming a force ghost required training from Qui-Gon. That came later.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It's his story, therefore his explanation carries more weight than yours. It's that simple. Go write your own original saga if you want to be the sole arbiter of what it means.

    Nothing about this example qualifies as "nonsense" simply because you don't like it.

    The movie doesn't "say" anything, that's why people ask the question in the first place.

    Except for the part where it doesn't apply to the death of Yoda, who also ghosted. At one point you're going to have to face the fact that in the realm of fiction there are always things happening in the fictional universe that we don't see.

    Because Qui-Gon as a character had not been invented yet. But the Annotated Screenplays have Yoda playing basically the same role as Obi-Wan in the passage from the Windham book, so the concept was there at the time, just not explained in the film.

    Also from the ROTS novelization: It cannot be granted; it can only be taught.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 23, 2013
  3. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    Agree.
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I don't need my voice to carry weight. There is what's in the film, and what's not. It's cut and dry.

    This is subjective. If I believe his explanations tend to be silly, that is my right to express that opinion. If guys like you want to buy into everythign he says, that is your right.

    The movie says the only things that count. Again, either something is on screen or it is not. If you like the explanation that some force ghosts came and talked to Vader, great. But that does not mean that anyone else is under the obligiation to buy into those explanations. In the film, Vader dies with Luke and nobody else.

    That's true. Yoda is a master and doesn't need to be taught anything




    That is an artistic choice to not include it. They could have, they didn't. So, it's not in the movie, so it's neither here nor there. Lots of ideas don't make it into a movie.


    Again, this is not in the movie. If it was important, it should have been.
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I was never talking about "everything". I was talking about this specific thing. I wanted to know what makes it nonsense. Justifying that takes more than saying "opinion".

    Then if it doesn't explain this question, any alternative to the explanations given by Lucas or Windham is no better than theirs.

    Why can't Ben be there? Or in the netherworld? Because you said so?

    It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. Anakin by the time of ROTJ is undoubtedly at the equivalent of "master" level in terms of Force proficiency anyway, having been nearly ready to assume the rank during the prequel era.

    But it survived Lucas' edit, and he thought it was important enough to mention it on the DVD.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 23, 2013
  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It's very simple, Ben isn't there because Ben isn't there. Go watch, tell me when to pause the film to see Ben

    Neither is your line about "it can only be taught". Show me what scene to look in, and if it's there you win.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 23, 2013
  7. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    As a tautology that is impressive. As an argument, not so much. Does Ben have to be visible to be there? Choose wisely. Next question: do you believe you're seeing into the netherworld in that scene?

    You were supposed to figure it out from the fact that none of the dead Jedi killed in Order 66 ghosted. What did I win? :eek:
  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Any evidence in the film will do. Vader didn't ghost either. Luke takes his body with him. So............................you don't win anything

    You just would like me to accept your truth, for the truth. Well, back it up with the movie.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 23, 2013
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You were supposed to figure it out from the fact that none of the dead Jedi killed in Order 66 ghosted, and the reference at the end of ROTS to Obi-Wan's future training.

    Nope, no ghost to see here. Move along...

    [IMG]

    So what? Qui-Gon and Vader show that you can leave a body and still ghost.

    Not mine. Someone else's. See if you can guess who.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 23, 2013
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Then the question remains, if training is required, where is the evidence of Vader ever receiving this training? Where?
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, your imagination. Not in the film, a film which should speak for itself.

    I mean, you just got done telling me how it has to be taught. Is that true, it has to be taught?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 23, 2013
  13. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I'd be shocked if you could find 1 in 50 people think that:

    1. ...Qui-Gon is training people how to become a force ghosts.
    2. ...he specifically trained Vader how to become a force ghost.

    This is not backed up by any evidence on film. I suppose it is in some piece of EU created 14 years ago that 2% of the SW fanbase has read or something?
    Last edited by KilroyMcFadden, Mar 23, 2013
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Training people how to become Force Ghosts- is in the Revenge of the Sith novelization.

    And in the film, Yoda says

    "An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the force- Qui Gon Jinn. How to commune with him, I will teach you."
  15. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

    Manager
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    Apr 26, 2009
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  16. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 4
    @Arawn_Fenn is already a Force Ghost so clearly he has learned the path to immortality.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Mine? This approach seems tantamount to confusing me with Lucas, but I'm not Lucas. You can tell because he posts under the username "George Lucas". This isn't something I made up myself. The answer to your question was in the Windham quote anyway, so you've seen it.

    ROTS appears to say just that. It even says outright that Obi-Wan will receive training from Qui-Gon. So even if we assume for the sake of argument that the above statement is true, all we've established is that the average person on the street isn't very familiar with ROTS. But I already knew that. I wouldn't expect a general public generally averse to the prequels to remember the details of ROTS. But it's still in the film.

    No one that I know of, including myself, is arguing that.

    What percentage of the fanbase has the ROTJ DVD?
    V-2 likes this.
  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Lucas made the decision not to put these things in his movie, what's not in a movie is as important as what is. So, where in Return of the Jedi do I see Vader receive this training?

    So, we are sticking with the "it needs to be taught" angle?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He put:

    "An old friend has learned the path to immortality. One who has returned from the netherworld of the force- Qui Gon Jinn. How to commune with him, I will teach you."

    in the movie.
    V-2 likes this.
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, but when was Vader taught, if it must in fact be taught?
  21. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Fair enough. What i think you are saying is that it is your opinion based on the couple of lines on the Tantive that Qui-Gon taught Yoda and Obi-Wan how to become force ghosts. Is that accurate?
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The movie doesn't tell us.

    The EU, however, tells us "Immediately after his death, but before his consciousness fades"
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 24, 2013
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Then, in the movie, Vader was never taught anything.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not onscreen, no.

    Him appearing next to Ben & Yoda, however, hints that he has learned it. And with noone to learn it from between RoTS and his death (and being a Dark Sider besides)- it logically follows that he must have learned it after his death.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 24, 2013
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It doesn't hint at anything other than his being a ghost. The idea that it was taught to him is not proved by his being a ghost.
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