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Saga Anakin's ghost?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Vader's Chest Plate, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Note that Yoda says Qui-Gon has Learned the Path to Immortality- implication- it's not something all Jedi know instinctively- but something that must be taught.
     
  2. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Well, I'm being told here that it must be taught to Vader, and yet nowhere on screen is Vader taught. There is not one lick of evidence for that in the films.
     
  3. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2004
    He also made the decision to mention it in the DVD commentary, which can be contrasted with various other notable plot points for which he remained silent.

    It's also based on the cut scene which appears in the script and the novelization, as well as the fact that none of the other dead Jedi come back, which otherwise is just an amazing unexplained coincidence. It's not hard to connect the dots that the ability of Obi-Wan and Yoda to commune with Qui-Gon which we are told about in ROTS, combined with the fact that we are told Qui-Gon has discovered the path to immortality in the same scene, means that Obi-Wan and Yoda learned this path through communing with Qui-Gon.

    You're not seeing into the netherworld.
     
  4. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Nobody is, because it's not in the movie. I don't care what's in that commentary, Lucas says lots of things when confronted with questios about his work. It's not in the movie. You can go back and look at all kinds of things Lucas has said that he has openly contradicted later in films or in more talk. What counts is what is in the movie.

    Where is this training?

    I agree that ROTS makes it pretty clear that Yoda and Kenobi learned how from Qui-Gon. But not Vader.
     
  5. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    But the netherworld is mentioned in ROTS, so we know it exists. Thus it exists in ROTJ too even though we can't see it, like all the other things in movies that must by logical necessity be assumed to be going on in the background even though they can't be seen.

    He's been saying these things since the 1980s. Also, Lucas' explanation makes no less sense than the alternative, in which Anakin simply obtains the power automatically because of having a lot of midichlorians.
     
    V-2 likes this.
  6. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    But you keep saying that it must be taught, then back that up. VAder isn't taught anything by Yoda or Kenobi, or Ginn for that matter.

    And why can't Vader learn it by himself. You're the one hung up on the "it must be taught" logic. That isn't in the movies.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Indeed. "Self-sacrifice" alone wouldn't explain it- lots of Jedi die trying to save others- but they generally don't turn up as ghosts later.
     
  8. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    That's because it's true.

    I think you've seen my references to the DVD commentary, the Annotated Screenplays, and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

    Prove it. "Didn't see it, didn't happen" means people never go to the bathroom. Why can't Anakin be taught anything by Yoda or Kenobi?

    Because none of the other dead Jedi did. Why are some dead people better at learning than others?
     
    V-2 likes this.
  9. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    I don't have to prove anything. The movie says what it says. You're the one making claims. It's not on me to disprove your claims, it's on you to prove them.

    The movies shows Vader dying with Luke, and then on the planet as a ghost. That's it. All I've been saying, is that that is what's in the movie. There is nothing for me to prove

    Nice try though. I dont' blame you for trying to flip that around
     
  10. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    It doesn't say Anakin isn't taught anything by Yoda and Kenobi, which was your claim.
     
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  11. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Then who taught Qui-Gon. You keep saying it must be taught. Who taught him?
     
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  12. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Again, it's up to you to prove that they did if that's your position. Go ahead if you can. The movies don't say they do.
     
  13. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    The secret of the Ancient Order of the Whills, he studied.

    And it's up to you to prove your position that they didn't. Not only does the film not provide the proof you seek, but Lucas contradicts your position outside the film.
     
  14. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    A Shaman of The Whills- I think is said at one point- possibly in commentary.

    Learning something- nearly always involves building on a whole lot of knowledge, acquired over time. Rare is the case where a person can "teach themselves entirely by trial and error".
     
  15. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    So then, where in the movies does that come from?
     
  16. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Lucas can't fit everything into the movies.
     
  17. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    Where in the movies is it made into an impossibility?
     
  18. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    No, but anything he wants to be considered part of the story needs to be in there
     
  19. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    You have this backwards again. I don't have to prove or disprove your claim. You do.
     
  20. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    You have to prove your own claim that it didn't happen just because you didn't see it.
     
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  21. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    Nonsense, it's not a claim. It's not in the movie, that isn't a claim. That has been my position from the beginning. You don't understand standards of proof, do you?

    You made a claim about Vader being taught, it's on you to prove it. YOU.
     
  22. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    "Vader isn't taught anything by Yoda or Kenobi" is a claim.
     
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  23. Placeholder

    Placeholder Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jan 30, 2013
    No it's not. The movie has no such scene.
     
  24. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. At least not until somebody strikes you down and it happens to you automatically."
     
    V-2 likes this.
  25. Jcuk

    Jcuk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Just didnt understand WHY it had to be something that had to be taught to a Jedi/force user? Seemed like too much of a contrived idea. Over complicating something that didnt need to be.
     
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.