Saga Anakin's ghost?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth Vader's Chest Plate, Mar 21, 2013.

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  1. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Note that Yoda says Qui-Gon has Learned the Path to Immortality- implication- it's not something all Jedi know instinctively- but something that must be taught.
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Well, I'm being told here that it must be taught to Vader, and yet nowhere on screen is Vader taught. There is not one lick of evidence for that in the films.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He also made the decision to mention it in the DVD commentary, which can be contrasted with various other notable plot points for which he remained silent.

    It's also based on the cut scene which appears in the script and the novelization, as well as the fact that none of the other dead Jedi come back, which otherwise is just an amazing unexplained coincidence. It's not hard to connect the dots that the ability of Obi-Wan and Yoda to commune with Qui-Gon which we are told about in ROTS, combined with the fact that we are told Qui-Gon has discovered the path to immortality in the same scene, means that Obi-Wan and Yoda learned this path through communing with Qui-Gon.

    You're not seeing into the netherworld.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 24, 2013
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Nobody is, because it's not in the movie. I don't care what's in that commentary, Lucas says lots of things when confronted with questios about his work. It's not in the movie. You can go back and look at all kinds of things Lucas has said that he has openly contradicted later in films or in more talk. What counts is what is in the movie.

    Where is this training?

    I agree that ROTS makes it pretty clear that Yoda and Kenobi learned how from Qui-Gon. But not Vader.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    But the netherworld is mentioned in ROTS, so we know it exists. Thus it exists in ROTJ too even though we can't see it, like all the other things in movies that must by logical necessity be assumed to be going on in the background even though they can't be seen.

    He's been saying these things since the 1980s. Also, Lucas' explanation makes no less sense than the alternative, in which Anakin simply obtains the power automatically because of having a lot of midichlorians.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 24, 2013
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  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    But you keep saying that it must be taught, then back that up. VAder isn't taught anything by Yoda or Kenobi, or Ginn for that matter.

    And why can't Vader learn it by himself. You're the one hung up on the "it must be taught" logic. That isn't in the movies.
  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Indeed. "Self-sacrifice" alone wouldn't explain it- lots of Jedi die trying to save others- but they generally don't turn up as ghosts later.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Mar 24, 2013
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That's because it's true.

    I think you've seen my references to the DVD commentary, the Annotated Screenplays, and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.

    Prove it. "Didn't see it, didn't happen" means people never go to the bathroom. Why can't Anakin be taught anything by Yoda or Kenobi?

    Because none of the other dead Jedi did. Why are some dead people better at learning than others?
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 24, 2013
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  9. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I don't have to prove anything. The movie says what it says. You're the one making claims. It's not on me to disprove your claims, it's on you to prove them.

    The movies shows Vader dying with Luke, and then on the planet as a ghost. That's it. All I've been saying, is that that is what's in the movie. There is nothing for me to prove

    Nice try though. I dont' blame you for trying to flip that around
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  10. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It doesn't say Anakin isn't taught anything by Yoda and Kenobi, which was your claim.
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  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Then who taught Qui-Gon. You keep saying it must be taught. Who taught him?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
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  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Again, it's up to you to prove that they did if that's your position. Go ahead if you can. The movies don't say they do.
  13. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The secret of the Ancient Order of the Whills, he studied.

    And it's up to you to prove your position that they didn't. Not only does the film not provide the proof you seek, but Lucas contradicts your position outside the film.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 24, 2013
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    A Shaman of The Whills- I think is said at one point- possibly in commentary.

    Learning something- nearly always involves building on a whole lot of knowledge, acquired over time. Rare is the case where a person can "teach themselves entirely by trial and error".
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    So then, where in the movies does that come from?
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Lucas can't fit everything into the movies.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Where in the movies is it made into an impossibility?
  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No, but anything he wants to be considered part of the story needs to be in there
  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    You have this backwards again. I don't have to prove or disprove your claim. You do.
  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You have to prove your own claim that it didn't happen just because you didn't see it.
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  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Nonsense, it's not a claim. It's not in the movie, that isn't a claim. That has been my position from the beginning. You don't understand standards of proof, do you?

    You made a claim about Vader being taught, it's on you to prove it. YOU.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Mar 24, 2013
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Vader isn't taught anything by Yoda or Kenobi" is a claim.
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  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No it's not. The movie has no such scene.
  24. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. At least not until somebody strikes you down and it happens to you automatically."
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  25. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 3
    Just didnt understand WHY it had to be something that had to be taught to a Jedi/force user? Seemed like too much of a contrived idea. Over complicating something that didnt need to be.
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
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