PT Anakins Outburst with Padme

It does sort of speak to how much he's been internalizing his feelings, and has been so desperate to find anyone to share them with.

 

After Anakin kills the Sandpeople, he rants at Padme about someday being able to stop people from dying, blaming OWK for holding him back, etc…and I get how all of those things manifest into the angry Anakin that embraces the dark side, but what just now struck me after all these years, is that he never says anything about how if he hadn’t left his mother to become a Jedi, that “none of this would have ever happened” (maybe true, maybe not).

It would have added even more credence to his growing contempt for the “Jedi way”, IMO, and added a bit more depth to his character, by reeling in the last 10 years into that moment.

Thoughts?

 

I don't think that would have been something Anakin would have ever said. Did he miss his mother? Yes of course he did and her death wrecked him something hard but I never felt like he regretted his decision to leave with Qui Gon and the idea of being a Jedi. This was the 9 year old boy slave who talked about his dream of being a Jedi to go back and free all the slaves.

 

I don't see where that leads or what that would even mean. It's really a non-starter that leads nowhere.

 

Anakin doesn't regret becoming a Jedi. What he regrets is that he wasn't strong enough to save her in time. He believes that if he had seen a stronger, more clearer vision, he would have been able to save her. He also believes that if he was capable of using the Force to actually stop her from dying, she'd still be in his life.

 

Both Padme and Anakin were very emotionally stunted and damaged people, let's be honest.
Both of them spent a good chunk of their youth suppressing their feelings and latched on to the first person who could be "themselves" around. Padme had to keep a "stiff upper lip" being a Queen and then a Senator and her busy life never allowed her for much fun. I would have to think that outside of her childhood crush on Paolo, she never had a serious romantic relationship before Anakin. Anakin was trained from the age of nine to let go of his emotions and it's not something he ever felt comfortable with. He also missed his mother and I feel his relationship with Padme is pretty Oedipal. He clung to her in absence of his mother; in fact we see him even in TPM fixating on her right after he's left his mother. This is a boy who needed a guardian who would actually care for him (cough Qui-Gon cough), not view him as a burden which I believe Obi-Wan always did. Instead he had a resentful and jealous Master who was never fatherly.

Padme and Anakin had what would be called a "codependent" relationship in the real world. She ignored every red flag he put up because let's be honest: Both were emotionally (and sexually) deprived teenagers who had no idea what love was, and had no experience in dealing with their emotions.

As to Obi-Wan:
Obi-Wan had no interest in teaching Anakin and did so only out of a sense of duty. I think there was an unspoken resentment on Obi-Wan's part, too:

1) His Master, who is like a father to him, shoves him aside as soon as Anakin is discovered. That had to hurt. Had to breed a little resentment if not jealousy. Like the way an older sibling feels when the cute new baby sibling is born and they're no longer special

2) This "younger brother" is also apparently the "Chosen One" - someone destined to outdo Obi-Wan in both ability and importance, further fueling resentment and jealousy on Obi-Wan's part. Look at the way he undercuts and tries to downplay Anakin's abilities in AOTC. That's an insecure older brother putting down his more skilled younger brother.

There's a lot of Freudian things going on in the prequels.

 

TCW did give her a pre-Anakin relationship - to Rush Clovis - the episodes making it clear that he is her ex.

 

I think that undercuts her character, or at least "I can't have a relationship, I'm a Senator" crap.

 

"You're a Jedi Knight, I'm a Senator".

She knows Anakin is not allowed to be attached - says nothing about her not being allowed to be attached.

 

Right. She knows that the two of them cannot be together, because of the scandal. She could have taken up with Rush Clovis and there would be no problem with that. Hell. Bail Organa was married and a senator. So nothing says that a senator cannot be married other than to a Jedi.

 

She knows if she openly disgrees with him, he shall have to beat her. Good instincts on her part.

 

It's still understandable if either a lot of people leave the Jedi despite having all that training from early on or Anakin uniquely has them from starting his training much later and older; the Jedi kind of expect that at older age with more worldly and possessive attitudes a lot of their teachings may not be so persuasive.
From Anakin's words I think you get the sense that the Jedi do stress impartial altruism rather than selfishness but not so much why or how some feelings would lead to the Dark Side. They seem more about suppressing or ignoring anger than trying to calm it.

I don't think doing so secretly was right, it would have been a lot better for Anakin to leave the order and openly marry her (despite the scandals that might cause, hopefully not *that* much especially given that the war had started). The secrecy contributed to Anakin thinking that he and her were above the rules, even though they did so partly for altruistic reasons, so they could continue serving as a Jedi and senator.

 

Hmmm...I can't agree with you, regarding Obi Wan. Resentful? Jealous? At least not based on what we see in the movies. He never, to me, is anything but a patiently understanding mentor and teacher - if we are supposed to imagine hidden resentments, they are well hidden (as in, the movies provide no hint of them). If anything, when Obi-Wan finally goes to Padme, the scene plays in a way that suggests Obi-Wan had SOME idea "something" was going on, before this... and either chose to look the other way, or tolerated it (maybe not good decisions, mind you). I didn't see any undercutting or downplaying in AOTC - no offense, but I simply didn't. Your characterization of the Obi-Wan / Anakin relationship is one that I could see being spun out of the way Anakin is "foisted" upon him by the dying Qui-Gonn, but it isn't one that I saw developed, or even hinted at, on-screen. IMHO.

 

This is probably just me but I read Anakin and Padme's relationship in AotC as they're physically intimate the entire time from "Don't worry, we have Artoo with us!" to the trip to Geonosis (and maybe for spell when they're captured if they were kept in the same cell). But the rules are they can't fall in love (or kiss! ie. "I shouldn't have done that.") But they do fall in love which is why I read Padme's accepting the admission of the Tusken slaughter and her proclamation of love before their execution came from (and they fact they were, y'know, about to be publicly, brutally executed).

Mainly, I extrapolate this off of the shot of Anakin sleeping and Padme saying she heard him in his sleep. How is she going to hear him if they aren't sleeping in the same room together? Yes, we see Anakin talking in his sleep "No, mom." but that was more murmuring, she ain't going to hear that if she's sleeping in a separate room, seems like something she would only hear if they were together. Also, y'know, her somewhat ... provocative outfit in the fireplace chat.

Just my view but I think it works. At least for me! Anakin Skywalker's big Girlfriend Experience weekend that got complicated. Or to use the plot of a Natalie Portman movie she made "No Strings Attached."

 

I find the Naboo Fields scene and when Anakin is carrying her luggage, and where he shares a pear with her to be some really romantic moments.

 

Oh he's totally being very caring and nice to her and wants her to fall in love with him. I just think it makes the relationship more complicated if there's a something that the audience isn't entirely privy to (and helps me personally accept Padme's turn to undying love). Maybe she thought he was kind of a cute space monk or something. Naboo seems a pretty liberal, free spirited place.

Her hearing him mutter in his sleep is a bit of a stickler to me, though, and sort of extrapolate from there.

 

Um...

(at 4:10)



They weren't sleeping together at all during AOTC, that doesn't make any sense. It would also go against the sort of old-fashioned values Star Wars tends to abide by as a stylistic matter.

e: Oh, you meant later on. Yes, Padme heard him from another room. How is that implausible?

 

She's hearing him through closed doors across the hallway as he's quietly muttering in the middle of the night? I don't buy it. He ain't exactly sitting bolt upright and screaming his head off.

 

We don't know that her room was across the hall. It might have been right next door, in which case, you can hear someone talking and moaning in their sleep. I used to live in a town home that was two houses put together, but different occupants. I could hear my neighbors talk in their room, when I was in my room with the television and radio off. Actually, I could hear more than that...unfortunately. So, you can hear someone when separated by a wall and the room is silent enough. No, they weren't sleeping together. Remember that earlier, she said that she was not going to pursue a relationship with Anakin and he is all by himself in his room when he has his nightmare.

 

Funny but no. They don't seem to be the kind of people that would go for a casual fling (which is something the Jedi would allow, ironically enough). They even have to get married first.

 

She didn't display a stronger reaction because she didn't want to further upset Anakin as he was melting down and needed a caring shoulder and an ear.

I feel it's fairly safe to assume Padmé & Anakin talked further about the massacre off-screen or between AotC & RotS. What he needed in that moment in the garage was comforting from someone who cares. Then it was straight from that to Shmi's funeral, to Obi-Wan's in trouble, to Geonosis, to being captured, to battle and so on.
I wouldn't be so quick to assume she didn't suggest anything to him at some point. I understand that some viewers demand that she say it on screen, but if she had it would've interfered with the tone, pacing, emotional momentum...

I'd bet at some point she did suggest it, but what we do know is Anakin would not do that. He already stated that Obi-Wan never listens and doesn't understand, which unfortunately is true in cases like this. It becomes clear by RotS that the only person he felt he could confide in about it was Palpatine. Yes, coming forward to a Jedi would've been the right thing to do, but he did try to talk to someone about it.

When we see Palpatine bring it up in RotS we are hit with the facts that Anakin has hidden his shame and pain over this these last three years - for all of his reasons of guilt, fear, selfishness etc... I personally feel the undercurrent of emotional context of all this has greater impact than seeing Anakin & Padmé have a conversation about it on screen.

Bottom line is that it's Anakin's responsibility to do the right thing about the massacre, not Padmé's. She was there for him in his time of crisis and continues to be there for him as his wife to support him in his decisions. Not just because she is afraid of the consequences.

It's probably safe to say they both feel it was a crime of passion, not premeditated or something likely to be repeated.

Should Anakin still have owned up to it? Of course. That's a given.

Does she get a free pass from this or bear any of the blame for what happened later? Well, she stayed with Anakin because she believed in him and that he could conquer his problems. If she is partly responsible, it is because she saw the good in him. If loving someone and having faith in their goodness is a crime, then she is guilty. Soley labeling her as weak or enabling is a bit unjust, is it not?

Whoa there! To echo @SHAD0W-JEDI, I can't agree. I didn't see this.

Nerdy and awkward, sure. Living restricting roles, sure. Jungian, sure (especially the OT).

I knew some people were going to take these angles after QRB said:

Which is why I preemptively laid a foundation for a rebuttal:
(And can we get that correct quote in it's context?)

"Tell your sister you were right about me." Breaks my heart that nobody could tell Padmé.


Freudian? Oedipal? No offense, but I'm not seeing it.

Remember Anakin thinks Padmé is an angel the moment he first sees her, and the two of them develop an instant rapport. I wouldn't say he latched on to her specifically to replace his mother or anything. I'd say that would diminish or bluntly over-simplify this otherwise intricately woven human character of mythic proportions. (Just not Oedipus).

What we do know is Anakin and Padmé both (if you watch the deleted scenes) came from loving families and know exactly what that is (unlike the Jedi, who do have their Jedi family, but that's not quite the same thing). It's also fair to say they have quite a bit of experience dealing with their emotions. Anakin's new way of life requires him to control his emotions, but does he? Have they been in many romantic relationships beforehand? It seems Padmé has to an extent. Anakin, no, not likely. But for what it's worth, he's thought about Padmé everyday, which is in it's own way an emotional devotion/meditation/exercise.

As far as them having a dysfunctional relationship or sense of love: Luke's love & compassion for his father had to be real, pure. And Anakin's compassion & love for his son had to be real. So Anakin & Padmé's love had to be real and pure. The last path of hope for the galaxy and balance for the Force was carried in their children; they had to be created from a pure love. For Luke to genuinely see the good in Anakin, so did Padmé.

The things you mention just aren't GL's style.

Was their relationship perfect? Well, they were certainly human - amidst a human society. But when it all comes down to it, their love was pure.

This is a fairy tale space opera in the style of a classic epic, structured around the human virtues and frailties we can all relate to.

Btw, though I understand what you're getting at with "codependent", it should be mentioned that that term is not even recognized by the DMS of the American Psychiatric Association. Furthermore, some psychologists consider it a good trait, but taken to excess - which is a theme explored in the PT. If you're interested, I would suggest rather looking into attachment-style/theory. @xezene has put together some good posts on it.
I also recommend reading Emotional Intelligence by Daniel Goleman, a friend & associate of George Lucas, which had a profound impact on Lucas while writing the PT and provides many insightful parallels into the development and crafting of the characters of the PT and their dynamics.


@BigAl6ft6
To echo myself and others.

As you noted, Padmé said she shouldn't have even kissed him. And later that evening they agree not to pursue anything. For me, I feel the fact that she heard him from however far away she was shows how attentive she was being, hinting at her growing feelings for him - as if her demeanor, looks in her eyes, delivery and volunteering to go with him wasn't enough. The movie doesn't need them to have a fling to add layers of complexity to the story, just as someone doesn't need to sleep with somebody to fall in love with them. Again, that's not GL's style. It would be inconsistent with the saga and the characters.

AotC is a clinic in reading between the lines with these two, and observing the details in their dialogue and expression. While synergistically soaking in Williams' emotionally illuminating cues. Such touching subtlety and nuance may never be seen again in a blockbuster franchise.

Anakin is like an eager, blazing sun and Padmé the receptive flower blossoming in the radiance. Until Anakin's fears begin to burn too hot. Not to evoke the wilting flower trope. Because Padmé is anything but. This lotus stays strong and true to her principles throughout. She is the only pillar of the PT that never truly falls. And even after her physical death, she lives on. Through her hope, passed on to the twins. Not only her hope for freedom but also for the good left in Anakin.

Thanks. And what I was getting at in both cases was the other altruistic reason; honoring love over law. As well as, specifically for Ani & Padmé, the result of their love; Luke & Leia and their role in the galaxy.

 

Don't agree.
First, her lack of a reaction.
Unless Padme feels that mass murder and small scale genocide is no big deal, then a bit more of a reaction would be appropriate.
A gasp, covering her mouth with her hand, that kind of thing.
She reacts and then she composes herself and goes over to comfort Anakin.

Her reaction, to me, is like Anakin told her that he demolished some cars and beat up some people.
Not killing women and children.

This is likely due to Lucas the director, he isn't much of an actors director and expects the actors to come up with all the various emotions themselves.
The more experienced actors were better at dealing with this than some of the younger ones.
I think Hayden was a bit better in RotS as he had some more time to work with this character and there were more off.screen help.
In AotC, he struggled a lot more with how to say his lines.

As for imagining them talking about it later, the movie just drops this event and they never mention it again.
Only Palpatine makes a quick reference to it.
This is a gold mine for exploring character.
Have her suggest he seek help but he talks her out of it.
Or have a scene where Obi-Wan asks him what happened on Tatooine and he lies about it and she looks pained but also keeps silent.
Or have her say that he keeping this a secret, along with their marriage, is making her feel bad.

In short, this is ripe with drama, do something with it.
But no, the film has the scene and then moves on like nothing happened.
Padme never mentions it again, nor does it seem like she even remembers it happening.
Anakin likewise does not talk about it much.

Anakin had a responsibility to tell his Jedi superiors about this, he didn't.
Padme never once suggested that he do this, this is enabling.
And it did not seem that she was pained about this in any way.

I won't do the film's job for it.
If it wants to establish that Padme suggest help or that they talked about this some more, SHOW that.

Bye for now.
Balckboard Monitor

 

Mystery solved. This is what goes on inside Anakin's head around Padme

<Anakin's internal conversation>: There she is. Padme. <Homer gurgle> Damn OB1. Putting me in my place *right in front of her*!!!! WTH dude? I even told him how much she means to me.

Padme: What's wrong Ani?

<Anakin's internal conversation> Uh oh. She noticed I went into the dark place. Thanks a lot OB1. You screwed up my game big time.

Padme: Ani?

<Anakin's internal conversation> Argh!!! I want to tell her how pissed off OB1 makes me, but that didn't go over that well last time (or 100x times after that). Think Ani. Think. Talk about something else. Anything but this. If you let her know what is on your mind right now, she's out that door.

Anakin: I hate sand.

<Anakin's internal conversation> He shoots. He scores. The crowd goes wild.