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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

PT Anakin's perceived love triangle with Obi-Wan and Padme in ROTS

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by ewoksimon, Aug 27, 2016.

  1. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I have a very low opinion of the intelligence of people who get involved in love triangles, so I'm glad it was left out. It would have made Padme and Obi-Wan look ridiculous and silly (at best) while not improving Anakin's character at all.
     
  2. Deliveranze

    Deliveranze Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2015
    Yeah it just sounds cheap. It would make all 3 characters less sympathetic and it seems like a rushed, half-ass reason to have Anakin turn to the dark side.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001

    To which I come back here.

    "...some of the people had a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, "You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try and kill you." They didn't seem to understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme....

    So I had to ask myself, what was I trying to say and didn't I say it? Did it just get missed or it is it not there? I had to look at it very hard. I had to ask myself, Is this how the audience is going to react? Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So I may lose a certain demographic - maybe, maybe not. But I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or marketable. I have to be true to my vision which is thirty years old. But I have to be true to it."

    --George Lucas, The Making of ROTS, page 188.


    Remember, back when Lucas started this, his Jedi turned Sith turned Jedi again didn't turn because of a romantic triangle. He turned out of an ideological difference. He added a power slant as he went on, but he was consistent with that all the way to the end of ROTS. A love triangle goes against the story. It also doesn't fit in with the OT, where the love triangle was pretty much null and void in TESB and had a nail in the coffin in ROTJ. Remember, Luke and Anakin were similar to each other.

    Anakin Skywalker's final confrontation with the Emperor occurs during Luke's final confrontation with the Emperor, which compliments his father's dealings with the same man many years earlier. Indeed the life of the father and the life of the son are commentaries on each other.

    --The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

    "You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.
     
  4. Obironsolo

    Obironsolo Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 7, 2005
    I think Anakin was subconsciously threatened by Obi Wan. Anakin knew what he was doing was wrong. This was not an example of a bad guy who believes in what he's doing. Anakin was very aware that he was turning evil, and IMO, he was not being honest when he told Obi Wan that from his point of view, the Jedis were evil. He knew what he was doing, and he knew neither Obi Wan nor Padme would ever go along with it, and if they communicated with each other, they would both come down against him. That's why he felt betrayed. He knew they would disagree. Now that's just the psychological explanation of what happened.

    The literal events were actually ironic, in that Anakin foresaw the future, then became jealous and tried to stop it from happening, leading to his dark side turn, leading to his attack on Padme, which caused the very future he was trying to avoid in the first place. This falls in line with the very common idea that fear itself is the thing to fear most.
     
  5. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    I think this is spot on. Good work :)

    MJ
     
  6. Nanaki

    Nanaki Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Sep 5, 2016
    Plus, that would've created a huge plot hole; if Anakin did believe that Padme cheated on him, then how was he absolutely certain that he was the father in ESB?

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I547 using Tapatalk
     
  7. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Indeed.

    And welcome to the boards, I've enjoyed your posts so far.
     
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  8. Celidore

    Celidore Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    May 2, 2015
    Oh well, I think Anakin becomes so crazy after he turns to the dark side that the fact he perceived a love triangle is perfectly possible...
     
  9. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 15, 2015
    Huge plot twist in Episode 9! While Anakin was off fighting the Force got Pads pregnant!
     
  10. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Yeah, I really really love that about the Anakin -- Obi-Wan dynamic. That tragic mismatch of Anakin craving Obi-Wan's (paternal) guidance right until the end, right to the point he's burning on the basalt bank; and meanwhile Obi-Wan going on and on about being brothers.

    That's a big reason why I could never see it as a triangle in the sexual sense, not even merely in Anakin's perception. He never saw Obi-Wan as a peer; so it's almost inconceivable that he would see him as a competitor.

    I completely agree that to Anakin, if it wasn't going to be "us against the world" any longer, that was already a betrayal. The earlier couple scenes in RotS establish that their relationship never really moved on past that stage. And perhaps it couldn't, regardless of whether there had been a war on with them separated for most of their marriage. As Padmé perceived, the secrecy was a fundamental weakness, because it meant that what Anakin thought was a pillar of their relationship was actually illusory.

    Yes as a matter of psychological fact (leaving aside the Arthurian antecedents), that was the only "triangle" there was imo, even in Anakin's skewed perception.

    Tonyg I agree the Arthurian triangle explains a lot about Anakin/Padmé, but I saw them more in the role of the lovers. The difficulty with casting Anakin as the betrayed husband and king, imo, is that Arthur was deeply wronged. Anakin wasn't. And not only that, even from his perspective, he knew, deep down, that he was the betrayer, not his wife and friend -- see Obironsolo's post quoted above.

    Of all the characters in the Saga, Anakin is the closest to a saviour-King, but in this particular context of the "triangle" (albeit not a sexual one), Obi-Wan is more like Arthur, in my view. (I admit my feeling about that has been strongly influenced by White's portrayal of Arthur's attitude to the affair in The Once and Future King, which is strikingly similar to my interpretation of Obi-Wan's attitude.)
     
  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    Arthur's portrayal varies considerably in fiction - some modern fantasy casts him in a someone more villainous light and Guinevere in a somewhat more sympathetic light.

    Indeed, Anakin's murdering innocents "in order to prevent a future he doesn't want" - is very Arthurian - fits with the story of the murder of a bunch of innocent children in the hope of getting baby Mordred.

    And Anakin's illicit relationship with Padme, may have shades of Arthur's with his half-sister Morgause, mother of Mordred.

    Would that make Luke "Sympathetic Version Of Mordred"? Who nearly kills his father, but unlike Mordred, is the one who lives at the end.
     
  12. Cael-Fenton

    Cael-Fenton Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Sorry, I'm not familiar with modern reinterpretations of Camelot. I'm pretty old-fashioned about my King Arthur :p

    I wasn't aware of versions with Arthur actually slaughtering children to get at Mordred...my impression was that he was too indulgent to both his bastard son/nephew/whatever and his favourite knight. The most updated version I know well is White's. The main version I'm familiar with is Tolkien's rendition of The Fall of Arthur; and I've a very passing acquaintance with Sutcliffe. (I'm talking about substantially-complete versions of the whole legendarium, not adaptations of bits of it).

    This is getting off topic though...so to bring it back to the supposed triangle...
    I don't think one could say Anakin and Padmé's relationship was "illicit", except in a very legalistic in-universe sense (although that was rather unhelpfully played up by the AotC marketing). The relevance of the Arthurian image is the betrayal per se (of lord and husband in their case), not some freestanding illegitimacy (ie the moral and legal implications -- that Guinevere must be condemned to death, for example) which can be considered apart from the actual harm caused to Anakin's relationship with the Jedi and Obi-Wan, Anakin's personal growth and maturity, etc.
     
  13. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012

    Yes, I am happy that Lucas didn't go down this road. I know prior to ROTS a lot of fans wanted to see this, but, I agree with you. I think it would have taken away from the characters of Padme and Obi Wan, and even justified some of Anakin's feelings...
     
  14. Tonyg

    Tonyg Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 16, 2016
    We discussed in depth this reference here http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-lea-and-why-i-prefer-the-first-one.50041462/ , because it fits more in their relationship. I agree completely that Anakin looks more like Lancelot even for the mere fact that he wasn't the king, but he was always the sentinel, the protector, as the knight of the lake was. And of course I was referring to the old-fashioned Arthur, as the new interpretations are too modern for this classic story (PT also is a classic story) and honestly, I don't like them.
    Anyway, my point was that the betrayal in the case of Arthur is more like betrayal to the duty and to the loyalty and not personal ( in every classic concept of the Arthurian legend Arthur tended to forgive the personal betrayal as he understood very well that nobody can tell to his/her hearth what to feel and to who). That's why I made this reference.
    But it is interesting that in the blog of the clone corridor there is an essay that explores the connection between the story of Anakin and the Arthurian legend suggesting that Anakin has characteristics of both Arthur and Lancelot.
     
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  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    I'm thinking of the May Day Massacre - goes right back to Sir Thomas Malory:

    http://villains.wikia.com/wiki/Mordred_(legend)

    According to Sir Thomas Malory, Mordred was begotten when Morgause, Arthur's half-sister, visited his court early in his reign, on an embassy from her husband King Lot of Lothian and Orkney, one of Arthur's greatest enemies. Arthur was taken with Morgause and slept with her, unwittingly committing incest. (However, another variation says that Arthur was put under a spell, and slept with his other half-sister, Morgan le Fay, as planned by the evil sorceress that the incestuous seduction would bring rise to Arthur's illegitimate son and destroy the great king.) Merlin afterwards told Arthur what he had done and how Mordred would grow up to kill him. Alarmed, Arthur sent for all the infants born on May Day (the day that Mordred would be born on) and sent them in a boat out to sea; the boat hit a rock and sank, drowning all the babies except for Mordred, who was rescued from the wreck. (The French Suite de Merlin, Malory's source, offers a slightly different account; instead of attempting a Herod-like massacre on the babies, Arthur had decided to send them to a remote corner of his kingdom where they could be watched over in isolation; the boat that sank with Mordred on board was a ship bringing the babies from Scotland to Arthur's court. It is uncertain whether Malory's account is a deliberate change from the story in the Suite, or a misleading abbreviation.)
     
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  16. ObiWanKnowsMe

    ObiWanKnowsMe Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 7, 2015
    either anakin was being delusional, palpatine was placing those thoughts into his head, or anakin was trying to validate what he was doing when he saw obi-wan on padme's ship -- anakin may have known better that obi-wan and padme were not having a rendezvous but at that point, the truth didn't matter -- anakin was too far gone & he was trying to justify all of his evil actions.
     
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  17. Dark Ferus

    Dark Ferus Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Imagine Obi Wan explaining to Luke,

    "I was in love with your mother, and your father became jealous and turned to the dark side when he sensed her returned feelings for me."

    I don't know if that would go over well.

    So best without a love triangle in the PT, at least not with Obi Wan.
     
  18. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    yup. i noticed that too. yoda warned anakin earlier that attachment leads to jealousy. he fears losing padme in every way. also in TCW he beat the crap out of clovis, a man padme had dated long ago and was currently working with. clovis was trying to put the moves on padme, but padme's job was to spy on him and so she couldn't just give herself away, especially when she'd approached him saying she wanted to be friends again.

    *and* in my opinion anakin is partially responsible for clovis's death. he had both padme and clovis on a ledge and claimed he couldn't hold onto them both. i find that rather unbelievable given his force abilities. this compelled clovis to let go of anakin, falling to his death to save padme.
     
  19. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    I'm not sure if its still canon but didn't Padme had a "crush" on Obi in the AOTC or TPM novelizations? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
     
  20. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    i've read the whole thread now, and i'm in between a lot of these interpretations. i think that it *is* like othello, but it's not sexual exactly. obviously anakin knows that obi-wan is highly unlikely to have a romantic relationship with padme (or anyone). even in his delusional state at the end, i think he has enough sense to know that. but he also doesn't seem to believe padme when she pleads that she loves him and is trying to help (if he even heard her). he sees her as a deceiver; and because he is romantically involved with her, there is a subtle romantic/sexual element to it. it's not that he thinks that padme has cheated on him--that threat would be much farther down the path... but she's going to obi-wan for help, to protect her (in this delusion), when that is his role. obi-wan's been in her home, and there when she's giving birth, and now on her ship... obi-wan is "taking her away from him," and is thus a romantic threat as well even though he's not taking her away from him so that he can be with her romantically.

    and if she brought obi-wan there to kill him, then she has chosen obi-wan over him. or so goes the irrational thinking.

    i remember reading in the dark lord series that he even told padme that he had made the mistake of loving her too much and so he hadn't seen her deceit and treacherous nature. othello was of course the tragic figure who "loved too much." i'm not mentioning this as any kind of proof, but just to say that it's similar enough to othello that a reference was made.
     
  21. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    I don't like this for several reasons:

    #1- It ruins Obi-Wan as a character. He's supposed to be a stalwart, honorable hero, an example of how to be a Jedi. No need to make him fall in love with Padme to give him flaws...we already see his flaws! He leaves Vader burning alive and later lies to his son about who his dad was.

    #2- It makes Anakin's fall pathetic. The whole point was that he wanted the power to keep those he loved from dying -- basically to keep the thing with Shmi from happening ever again. Him falling because "Waa, my master is trying to knock up my wife!!" seems too childish.

    #3- It not only makes Padme look weak, but it actually manages to destroy her character! She goes from a likeable, strong-willed woman to a conniving witch who toys with the hearts of two men and winds up dooming the entire galaxy because of it.
     
  22. Darth Basin

    Darth Basin Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 15, 2015
    Your #1 is also why I'm not a fan of Obi-Wan fathering Rey's parent. DARTHLINK
     
  23. darth-umbralis397

    darth-umbralis397 Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    May 3, 2017
    Very good thread, I liked a lot all Your hermeneutical Efforts.

    However, my views (which may be obviously wrong) are the following:
    1. an hypothetical 'love-triangle' would have been both impossible and unpoetic: a) it is impossible because Obi Wan is indeed perceived by Anakin and Padmé as a friend(1), all the time before A. falls to the dark side, and to introduce an opposite narrative would be a great mess in my opinion. Further, it's impossible also because OW is an exemplar Jedi who obviously appears by any means to be interested in romantic love. And this leads us to the second point. b) It's unpoetic because of OW's undiscerning loyalty to the Jedi: which makes him (without doubt) «very unsexy» (he's a nerd indeed), and therefore P could not poetically love such a character. While, on the contrary, Anakin is much more herotic, and his fall would have surely increased this side of him: because under the Jedi Order his personality was repressed by questionable assumptions made by the Jedi doctrine(2). Maybe, through a more rational approach(3) to the Force, A. may have unleashed his very potential: which neither under the Jedi nor the Sith could have been done in my opinion. Remarks.(i.) We may more precisely say that A's herotic superiority comes from his Dionysiac nature. – (ii.) Indeed, A's general superiority (to OW) is a theme widely affirmed in the entire PT: therefore it would be a hard contradiction to make P love him. – (iii.) Maybe Qui Gon may have been more «interesting» in this respect: because of his apparent autonomy from the Jedi orthodoxy.
    2. I disagree with the Romeo & Juliet suicide-like interpretation of A's final jump to fight OW (stated somewhere in the PT-forum): A has been irrational in that circumstance, and nearly killed himself because of that; there are in my opinion no other explainations.
    Some further issues, not directly linked to the topic, but cited in the discussion (here or elsewhere, in similar discussions): at any rate I think that certain points of the saga lead to necessary contradictions, and some considerations may then be pertinent (but without any deeper analysis, maybe later on, I'm a bit pressed by many tasks): I think that (a) the killing of younglings, (b) the reckless attitude that A shows after his conversion (which nearly killed him in Mustafar), are inconsistent with A's character, therefore undisered in the plot, and required only «to make the monster» of the OT; and perhaps it could have been handled better (even though the saga requires consistency between OT and PT). In other words, I think that the sudden change in A's personality is a 'hole' in the narration, and at variance with any reason (because A is indeed a "hothead" but he's not that irrational. And the Dark side cannot explain that: since Sidious is indeed patient and calculating, which makes him aesthetically superior to A).
    Remarks.(i.) Then, if we were to make logically insignificant the alleged conversion to the dark side and to modify the younglings-accident, then we could make P join A (and then either convert or deter OW), and then make A shape a new order in the Force. But this I think would maybe a far too different (maybe better? –any ideas of yours?) story.

    Thank you all, great discussion.
    ________________________________
    (1) «He cares about us.» ... «He knows. He wants to help you.» (Padmé).
    (2) «one must study all it's [the Force, i.e.] aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi.» (Darth Sidious). I agreed completely with this assertion: since my first view of the PT I found the Jedi view both obscurantist and –as is evident– down the line self-defeating.
    (3) I maintain that both the categories of the Jedi and the Sith are unperfect, and a more convincing synthesis is possible.
     
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  24. OCD_Chad

    OCD_Chad Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    May 12, 2017

    Padme tells him they shouldn't see each other for a while after that episode. Then he saves her and I guess everything is fine again.
     
  25. Gigoran Monk

    Gigoran Monk Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2016
    Yup. I got this impression the very first time I saw the film. Seemed crystal clear to me. Though I don't think it was necessarily suspicion of cheating, but rather, of Padme and Obi-wan plotting behind his back.
     
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