PT Anakin Skywalker MEGAthread - Don't talk to him about sand, it makes him uncomfortable

Let me begin first by saying that I'm very biased towards Anakin....nevertheless......

I think he was supercharged with emotions. I don't believe so much he was whiny when he was young, than the strength of his emotions were influenced by his immense power in the Force. I, too, think he was too inexperienced to handle himself.

I think he had to "kill" his emotions a little bit when he became Vader, but they were still very much there because he saved Luke.

Yes, I feel he was as complex as any real human being, and one of the most complex of the saga.

 

Ok, the entire post was awesome, but I liked this part especially. Great observation!

 

Thanks, Tony. And it's so symbolic, isn't it? Anakin retains balance when he's around Padme; her presence, he tells her, "is soothing". But as she slips away from him, he loses his grounding, and, as you put, "he disappears into the shadows of Vader". Without Padme, he is un-whole -- unholy -- and neither ape nor angel; a purgatory man caught in the block of the machine.

Indeed. Anakin does seem to be particularly "open" or influenced in his emotions by the Force. That's something I've said before. He is a "vergence"; and very few people take that concept all that seriously. Yet we immediately see in Episode I -- "Episode Me", "Episode Anakin" -- that Mace is rattled by this revelation: "Located around a person??"


A little bit more I wrote on Anakin and his particular sensitivity about a week ago:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-phantom-menace.50034476/page-5#post-53908683


It is like Anakin, in being so real, so raw, in AOTC, is constantly making this "life statement" about himself: "I'm me. Here is me. Please help me be me in a greater way." There is a great pain and sensitivity he displays, in a lot of ways, in AOTC.

And I can't help but see that as beautifully, blisteringly ironic. Anakin is really put through his paces in AOTC. He is constantly maimed and afflicted. Tormented by the beauty and incomparable kindness of Padme. Frustrated with Obi-Wan. Desperate to have his approval. In fear he might have been tortured and killed on Geonosis. Frantic about his mother. Even more paranoid that Padme might have heard him expressing some of that franticness. Impatient, argumentative, sad, nervous, tragic, desperate, blind, and perfectly seeing. World-weary, disconsolate, angry, hateful, confused, morbid, determined. He loses his mother. He kills some nomads. He reveals his crime to his angel. He falls into a droid factory. His body is pinned down. He frets that Obi-Wan will "kill" him over the destruction of (another) lightsaber. Padme is nearly melted. Padme's heart *is* melted. Anakin's is thrown into turmoil. Padme is literally thrown from that gunship. Anakin is told to let her go. Anakin chases at Dooku, is electrocuted and tossed aside like a piece of garbage. Anakin rouses, but wages war on Dooku too starkly, too wildly, and loses an arm. What doesn't happen to Anakin in AOTC? His constant chastisement is symbolic of the torn-up tapestry of the prequels, of AOTC, of the Republic, of what it means to be human.

And then, fearing the loss of his angel, this rough, raw, spurned, sensitive, ragged, afflicted, tender, sore entity is burned -- burned down to his bones near enough -- and placed inside a robot suit for the rest of his days. And as the various pieces of the exoskeleton close on him, forever, it is like every last piece of tenderized skin, every last pore of Anakin's tattered soul, his sensitive constitution, is pricked with needles, seared with agonizing pain. All that soreness that he never really tamed is suddenly tunnelled into, telescopically triggered, activated en masse; as if every remaining midi-chlorian in his body were the size of Padme in that cup in the droid factory, having lava poured on it, endlessly.

A fragile, weary soul, shut up from the light, forced to bear all his sins and deny his once-ardent stirrings, trapped inside a death image, a moribund prisoner caught like a fly, awaiting annihilation, in the frozen chastity of the universal.


Now, in small part, I stole that last observation from "Star Wars: The Legacy Revealed" (a wonderful documentary if not seen):



Pertinent Part: 59:20

Mary Henderson, Author of "Star Wars: The Magic of Myth"

"And I love what George Lucas does with the symbolism here. He's so passionate [Anakin] that it burns him and consumes him. Now Anakin has to live in hell. And for someone that passionate, hell for him is to become a mechanical monster."

 

I initially put this in the AOTC thread. Better served here

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/calling-all-aotc-lovers.50039195/page-7#post-53932753

Cheers!

MJ

 

Oh, darn!

I'm conflicted.

Where to put the following? There, or here? Ah, both!

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/quiet-as-a-tomb.11794327/

Have a read through, but to save you the effort, I've collated the best remarks:




When Obi-Wan and Anakin are standing guard in Padme's apartment, Obi-Wan asks Anakin how things are going, and he responds with the very unusual, "Quiet as a tomb."

Now this line struck me as a bit odd the first time I heard it and I think it's really the first indication in the story of just how dark Anakin's character really is and just how far he's come from the plucky kid with the wide-eyed innocence in THE PHANTOM MENACE.

"Quiet as a tomb" is not exactly the most encouraging statement to make when you're guarding the target of an assasination attempt, and it speaks volumes about Anakin that he would associate peace and quiet with death.

It's a great line, and a perfect example of how Lucas really does put a lot of thought into his writing despite accusations to the contrary.

Durwood, May 27, 2003 at 12:01 AM #1




Durwood, this line stuck in my mind, too.

Notice that soon after Anakin says this line, he then confides briefly with Obi-Wan that he has been having dreams of his mother that disturb his sleep. At a subconscious level, images of death are bubbling up and into his everyday speech.

The colors are changing, from the bright primary colors of youth in TPM, to the colors of AOTC that progressively becomes autumnal, especially after the brief meadow picnic. Some commentary on the LOTR:FOTR DVD applies here, too: the Old Republic and the Jedi, like the Elven kingdoms of the Second Age, are in autumn and decline.

Falls_the_Shadow, May 27, 2003 at 7:42 AM #14




To me, first of all, they are protecting Padme in case someone tries to kill her again. The subject and situation is about death. At the same time, protecting someone is not Anakin's idea of adventure. So when Obi Wan asks him any activity, Anakin replies fittingly. I mean at a tomb, you don't expect someone to do anything and a dead body isn't going to do anything either.

Its Anakin way of saying that nothing could be more boring than what they are doing now. Just as exciting as waiting at a tomb.

I think the words suit just fine especially for Anakin's personality. If you feel something is there that's also alright. My two cents.

openmind, May 28, 2003 at 6:14 AM #34




The "quiet as a tomb" line was pretty noticeable. If you combined it with the darker colors in Padme's room and the pretty sparse furnishings in the main room, it gives off that type of feeling.

There's a big part about Anakin wanting to stop people from dying, there's death imagery later on, and even in this scene he talks about dreams of his mother (which is directly related to death). Also, Padme's been "dying a little each day" since Anakin has come back. It's fitting to refer to Anakin and Padme's first meeting place as a sort of tomb.

Was this intentional? Who knows. The interpretation of Shakespeare sometimes searches for deeper meaning in lines but I'm not too sure that they were meant to be that way.

More likely is that the theme was established, and by writing around that theme, certain lines with deeper meanings automatically get generated. Death is unquestionably an important theme here. And there is unquestionably a deeper meaning to be found in the lines, if you want to look for them.

Ardens_Furore, Jun 2, 2003 at 9:34 PM #69

 

A special shout-out to the magnificent Durwood for those brilliant insights from all those years ago; and for all the work they seem to be doing, or have recently been doing, defending the PT in the TFA forum!

 

Whiny brat.

 

A most stimulating contribution!

 

He was definitely a whiny brat in Attack of the Clones.

 

I don't know why Lucas made him so whiny. It just seems like he would have been a stronger character if he had a more angry bent. I never pictured Anakin to be such......a pain. It seems though, if he had stayed a Jedi, he would have calmed himself down. He seemed to be a little more controlled in ROTS.

 

I have to disagree completely. I won‘t repeat my own posts from the first page when I discussed this, but it would be better if you give some arguments about your statements as there are already more than 100 post about this topic. That‘s why Cryogenic talked about contribution.

 

He's definitely complex, but I do find him a bit of a pain solely within AOTC.
There are still aspects of the character in the film I love, such as the "compassion central to a Jedi's life" speech, his pretty consistent determination to do what he thinks is right... even if he is a little misguided, and the tragic inevitability of it all - particularly with regards to the Tattooine arc of the story. I agree with those that say the character has to cover a lot of elements to set up the other five films (including retroactively enhancing TPM).

 

The funny thing about the so called whining is that Anakin has only 2 moments of whining in AOTC. I have already analyzed this in some previous posts of this thread ( I mean why I think that this whining is motivated and understandable even natural) so I wouldn't repeat it, but I have to add that it always amazed me how for a two random moments Anakin is seen as too whiny. I tried to understand why and I don't get it: maybe because many people think that the true heroes should be like boyscouts: always ready for feats, never showing discontent, hesitation or some weaknesses... More like the primitive heroes from the pagan legends and myths than as the real humans do... But Anakin is too complex to be shown like this. Yes, he is flawed: as a normal human being. Yes, he has exceptional qualities but also he has his weaknesses that make him look real, even tangible.
Maybe he is seen as whiny because he is reckless and impatient. Many users even say that Anakin play it unfair to the Jedi Order since almost the beginning because he interpreted their Code in his own perspective in his own particular manner, so the results is that he looks even disrespectful to their Code (especially this about love and attachment). I have to disagree. Yes, Anakin is reckless but not because he is disrespectful. Many people ignore TPM as something additional to the movies and forget that Anakin was a slave who wanted to be free and to fly across the stars. Paradoxically he is reckless exactly for the slavery, because to survive on Tattoine and do all these things (build a pod, construct C3PO) he had to be reckless, i.e. not obey completely to his master ad do the things in his own way. ("Watto doesn't need to know about it", etc.). Is not something unusual for slaves with free souls: they have to act as Anakin acts in TPM not only to survive, but to achieve what they want. So Anakin has a very peculiar attitude to the hierarchy: the things are what they are, but I'll do it no matter what and I'll do it my way and my master doesn't need to know. Anakin saved this attitude in his Jedi years (Obi Wan doesn't need to know for may things in my life) and the only way that he obeyed to the other was when they persuaded him to listen and to accept what should be accepted. As Qui Jun did, as Padme always did with Anakin. As a former slave Anakin always had big difficulties to obey for the seek of obeying because he fought to be never slave again (he failed in the end of ROTS, but we are discussing Anakin now, not Vader). He has these difficulties even in the beginning of ROTS when we see him matured not only for the years passed but for all what happened to him (the grief for his mother, the burden of the secret of his marriage, the war). Is not that he is already used to obey; he just doesn't show immediately his feelings. Yes, he is more controlled as reactions but not as feelings. He is the same spontaneous ardent impetuous young man that enchanted Padme. And yes, Anakin is a person full with emotions and yes he has no fear to show these emotions: one of his best qualities that is totally destroyed by Vader. Being frank, with open heart and mind; that is the real Anakin.

Here Anakin.Skywalker said something about the anger that could make our hero feel stronger. Well, the anger cannot make anybody stronger and especially the Jedi, because as you know this is the path to the Dark Side and this is what finally made Anakin a slave to the Dark Side (before the coming of Luke). Anakin is not weak in AOTC, he is vulnerable. And the most fascinating thing is that he really have no fear or prejudices to show himself as vulnerable, especially with Padme. This is very brave act for a young ma like him who is destined to be a strong hero and maybe the chosen one. But the most wonderful thing is that Anakin doesn't care at all if he would looks as weak to his queen. He wants to be honest and real. And I think he wins Padme's heart also with that quality: he has no fear to be vulnerable. So no surprise how is she fascinated by this weird, unusual, emotional young man who cannot even breathe without her.

 

It's a mixture of all three really

 

Anakin whines much like Luke whines. It is the nature of impatience. Of wanting to do things now and not later and lamenting the unfairness of being denied what they want to do. Impatiences also breeds anger and frustration. Anakin whines about Obi-wan not respecting him and not giving him what he feels that he needs, which is the opportunity to take the trials and become a Knight. Luke whines about wanting to goof off with his friends, instead of doing his chores and later he whines about wanting to start his training with Yoda, but is denied because he has to have dinner with a pathetic lifeform.

These things are what a Jedi Padawan must overcome in order to become a Jedi Knight.

 

Watching the romance scenes on Naboo in Clones, I don't how Padme can stand to stay in the same room with him. He's completely creepy and stalkery and fascist. And he's you know he'd be wearing a red "Make The Galaxy Great Again" baseball cap if such things existed.

 

He should be complex, but he is not even close to being written that way in the movies. With an actual writer, he could have been complex.

 

Fascist? He has one line stating his support for dictatorship over the inefficiencies present in the current Senate. That's it.

And he's no more stalkery than Han, who disregards Leia's complaints and goes straight for the kiss. And is casually misogynistic.

Anakin has one moment of staring and that's it.

He backs down when Padme asks him to at the fireplace, and she's the one who resumes the relationship later.

That's hardly creepy behaviour. Anakin acts quite chivalrously really.

 

The way Padme replies with "You're making fun of me", and the moments ensuing...

What a charged Anakin/Padme moment, wrought with such a wide range emotions - veiled by Padme, on the sleeve of Anakin - but dancing none-the-less. To a tango set perfectly to John Williams' gorgeous score as their afternoon continues on.

I'm glad we got to see Anakin & Padme's happy times, before the war. As brief as they may have been. But... a Skywalker's life is a tragic one.

Once again for John Williams' score.

 

Oh, no. Here we go again with the "creepy thing" . My "favorite"! Really, when I read this for the first time in my life it was in some youtube comments on the sand scene and I thought it was just trolling. Because, seriously, for me it was ridiculous. But let's see how creepy exactly is Anakin on Naboo. Let's skip the social fail in the palace as first and the most important, it has nothing to do with their personal relation, it is about security, pride, Jedi status, so on and secod, Anakin apologizes and accept Padme's plan for the lake country.
They arrive on Naboo and talk about Padme's public service and Anakin confirms he is glad that she had chosen to serve to the Republic, helping her with the luggage. Despicable! In the lake country he helps her go out of the boat (how dares he do such things) and after that they talk about their respective childhood. And after that, it comes the kiss. Let's see what Anakin did exaclty. Instead of grab her and kiss her before she can react (as, you know, the real men do) Anakin first touches her and when Padme obviously doesn't protest (she is a bit surprised but pleased) then he kisses her. And she responds to the kiss but when she says 'I shouldn't do that', he says "I'm sorry". I'm sorry! He couldn't be creepier, right? First, ask for permission by this gesture and in the end apologize and stay confused because he thought that she would accept the kiss. Well, irony apart, what should I say: if this is creepy, then the chivalry is really dead.

But let's contiue the analysis. After this, it comes the picnic scene, where Anakin the pervert did the unthikable: he tried to ride one of the Naboo cows just to make Padme laugh. But why she is staying there and playing with him?? Run Padme, run, don't you afraid that this man will make something very foolish (like falling by the the cow) just to make you smile? No, this is just outrageous! During the dinner, Anakin continues to tell funny stories to Padme and uses a Jedi trick to make her smile. Instead of showing his ultimate masculinity of almighty Jedi, he explains that his master would be grumpy if he can see Anakin using his Jedi abilities in such childish way .. Can you imagine that?
And in the end here comes the culmination, the fireplace scene where again, instead of grab her and put her on the floor as the real heroes do around the fireplace in the movies Anakin confesses his feelings in Lancelot style without even touching her! I cannot imagine something more creepy,... wait, what? And he never again talk about this till the moment when Padme confesses her feelings in the tunnel of Geonosis arena...

Guys, let's be serious, really. The one and only uncomfortable look to Padme was in Coruscant and while I think it was motivated by different reasons (I'm a grown up) Anakin never did that again because Padme asked it. When he said in the refugee ship "You are the same as I remembered you" and Padme shows that she feels uncomfortable again, he moves his sight because he doesn't want to make her uncomfortable no matter that his emotions just cannot stay hidden. Yes, he actually listens to her. And this is not what most men do, if I should be honest. He respects her, he protects her, he apologizes when he sees that he has to do it and after this he is named 'creepy' and 'stalkery'. Anakin, who kiss her once then apologizes and when then never touches her again. Honestly, I don't get it and I'm a woman.

If you want to find creepy man in the SW Saga, this is Ben Solo, the king of the creepiness regarding to women. But I think Slicer87 was right; Ben inherited this by his father who is just better person and that’s the only reason to look different to Ben in his attitude to women, but yes, Han’s behviour to Lea in TESB is absolutely unacceptable for me. Han spends most of his free of battle time to persuade Lea that SHE loves him. The only thing that matter for him is that she should confess her ‘true feelings’. So, he wants to conquer her, not be with her and he does it, remember the kiss in the Millennium Falcon? Han actually surrounds Lea (she has no exit to escape) and explains her that she likes him! Then she kisses her no matter that she is trying to protest. Now, this is stalkery. I disliked Han in TESB for this. In ROTJ he is different, he doesn’t act like a conqueror with Lea, he is ready to step back because he shows that he really cares for her. But in TESB I wondered how she can stand him at all. Oh, yes, I forget that Han is the cool guy, so can do everything, no matter how creepy or unacceptable is and stay cool, right? And Anakin is the weird guy, so when he act in awkward way, it is not just awkward, oh, no! It should be creepy. That is how it works. But here come the surprise: Padme fell in love with the weird guy. Yes, I doubt that she would ever pay attention to guy like Han. Exactly the weird, unusual and ardent young man wins her heart. With a smile, I would say.

And I should thank to darkspine10 for explaining the things quietly and rationally. I explained it more in the Anakin way, if I can say so.

 

P.S. About the so called fascist thing, I have already discussed it here http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...n-the-prequels.50038237/page-11#post-53916560 , but in short, I don't think that in AOTC Anakin is willing supporter of any kind of dictatorship (fascism is specific form of political system, so let's be correct). He had almost apolitical, practical attitude to the government system: if it works, is good. Is Anakin right to think so? Well, that's another topic, but this attitude is not the opinion of strong supporter of the dictatorship systems. Anakin thinks that the consensus is needed (i.e. he doesn’t support authoritarian regimes) but as the goal is more important than the means, the agreement is needed at all costs. Yes, this detail is the key that leads many societies to dictatorship forms of government but is not because the people are in love with these forms of governments is more like they don't understand completely the consequences of the emergency powers, for example.
By the way, GregMcP, you mentioned an interesting topic to discuss: are the Jedi liberals at all? I don't think so. First, they belong to an ORDER with practically military hierarchy, second, they are appreciate the big goals more than the rights of the others. Although the Jedi aren't real soldiers, they all have the soldier's attitude to the politics: there are peace and prosperity, so it works. And I think Anakin has this attitude too, moreover he just has the illusion (in AOTC) that there at least some good politicians who are in charge. Obi Wan is much more cynical.

 

The only problem with your idea that he was a good guy, turned bad, but thought he was doing good is this scene, which is a very important scene when it comes to understanding the character:



This is on Mustafar right before Padme arrives. Most people I have talked to agree that this scene shows a conflicted Anakin. He knows what he is doing and has done is wrong, but, his own selfish desires are over-riding his Jedi teachings or even the normal instincts that humans have. You don't go on murderous rages killing innocents to serve your own purpose.

So I don't think at this point Anakin truly believes what he is doing is a "good" thing. He is clearly torn and conflicted.

I think once everything has been taken from him, Padme, the Jedi, the Republic, physical human appearance, the only thing he has left is that drive to obtain power from the Emperor and shape the galaxy as he sees fit.

 

Yes! I always loved this part of the micro series! The symbolism here that runs in-line with Anakins turn shows that the creators of the show knew a little bit about what was going to happen in ROTS and were able to mold this vision accordingly. The idea that the Dark Side (represented by the dark squiggly lines) gives immense power, with good intentions, ends up turning you cruel. This cruelty is represented by the fox like creature not just protecting his tribe, but repeatedly beating on the already dead monster. This cruelty consumes to the point that it consumes everything he loves and wanted to protect. Ending with Padme's screaming Anakin's name... Just loved this representation of the Force warning Anakin.

 

I think that he got a pretty good character arc throughout the whole saga, in my opinion he pretty much stays the same when it comes to his way to handle his impulsive emotions, like anger and hate. Ofc he ic complex, that is for sure. Maybe if some of Hayden Christensens lines were better written in the prequels we would have had an even better understanding of Anakin as a character. And him being a whiny brat is just a way to link him with his son, Luke. Luke was also considered to be a whiny brat in the beginning of ANH and to portray Anakin the same way is to create a connection between the two. They are after all father and son.

 

"This is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that’s happened by himself and the tear here shows that he knows what he’s done but he’s now committed himself a path that he may not agree with but he is going to go along anyway.

It’s the one moment that says he’s self-aware. He rationalizing all his behavior. He’s doing terrible things. But in the end he really knows the truth. He knows that he’s evil now and there’s nothing he can do about it and that’s the moment where the pathos of him being stuck in that suit is real because if he had to do it over he probably wouldn’t do it but he can't stop it now.

You know where it's going to lead. He knows it will end with a fight with Obi Wan. He knows that Padme not buy into this new reality. He made a pact with the devil and now he’s become the devil."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.