PT Anakin Skywalker MEGAthread - Don't talk to him about sand, it makes him uncomfortable

Oh, for ****'s sake, man. Do you have any more hyperbole you would like to regale us with?

 

I definitely put Anakin Skywalkee into the whiny brat category. But I think the real reason that people dislike him so intensely is that he’s the ultimate loser. Whenever something doesn’t go his way, he whines and cries and screams and throws a temper tantrum and blames Obi-Wan Kenobi. At no point does he ever sit down and say, “What can I do in order to make this better?” He never takes responsibility for his own actions or tries to fix his own problems. It’s always, ALWAYS someone else’s fault. Everyone is a horrible meaniehead trying to persecute him.

Recently, I was unemployed. Now, I could’ve just sat down and whined and complained about how unfair it was. I could’ve said, “It’a all Obama’s fault! He’s jealous! He’s holding me back!” Instead, I spent 7 hours a day, 5 days a week on job sites, looking up all the openings for which I was qualified. The only exception was when I was interviewing. And some weeks, I did 5-7 interviews. I must’ve sent out at least 1000 applications. I must’ve gone on about 20 or 30 different interviews. For months, I toiled away, desperately seeking a job. And there were times when I was frustrated and angry. There were times when I wondered if I’d ever work again. But I refused to give up. I refused to be a loser. I would keep searching and searching until someone finally hired me. And after about 4-6 months, I finally got an offer, which I quickly snatched up and accepted.

Now, I'm no great Jedi Knight. I’m no brave or wonderful hero. I’m just some schlub who’s pretty good with computers. But I persevered and endured. I showed greater strength than Anakin could ever dream of showing. Don’t ask me to accept someone as a wonderful noble hero when, by all objective measurements, I'm an infinitely stronger and better person than your alleged hero is. And I don’t say this out of ego. I’m not as good a person as Luke Skywalker or Han Solo or Princess Leia are. And I have my faults. I drink too much. I smoke too much. I have the world’s worst diet. I spend way too much money. I’m not particularly conscientious about my environmental footprint. I can sometimes be short-tempered and dismissive. I can sometimes be a bit callous and unsympathetic. And I can be stubborn and obstinate to a fault. But I don’t blame my problems on others. I take charge of my own life, and I do whatever is within my power to be a good person and not hurt others. If I ever did half the things that Anakin did, I’d be so wracked with guilt that I’d end up turning myself into the authorities within 3 hours…tops. I’m not perfect, but I’m not a loser.

Anakin is the world’s biggest loser. He has no impulse control, violently strikes out whenever things don’t go his way and treats everyone around him like garbage. He’s a self-absorbed, narcissistic, petulant little turd who only ever shows concern for his own feelings and desires. He never shows any concern for how his actions might affect others. He just acts like a smug, entitled jackass. He’s utterly incapable of empathy or understanding what others are going through. It’s all about him, and whenever someone displeases Precious Little Snowflake, he throws a tantrum and starts murdering people. Anakin is by no means strong. He is a weak pathetic loser. The only other characters in fiction that even slightly resemble him are Joffrey from GAME OF THRONES and Peter Pettigrew from HARRY POTTER.

 

For one thing, he only whines about other people twice, and once is after the death of his mother!

Anakin doesn't treat people like garbage. He's upset at Obi-Wan, because he feels that his potential is greater than Obi-Wan sees. He never criticises him as a person, just as a teacher. Luke criticises Yoda for asking the impossible as well. How is that different.

Anakin's problem is his overly attached nature.

Anakin is no whinier than Luke.

Seriously, I can bring up all the times they both whined. I can do it. But there's no point.

You wouldn't listen anyway.

 

He's like Trump, any backtalk is a sign of weakness and the mark of a loser.

 

At no point have I thought of Anakin as a badass of any kind.

I do think he is a whiny brat that whines about things he has no business whining about.

I would give him credit for being complex if there wasn't so much stupidity involved. I don't buy the idea that being a gullible fool makes one complex, I think it's complex when one behaves reasonably yet falls to the dark side anyway. A tragic character is complex, but a jerk who gets what he deserves, and good riddance, is not.

One should care when the tragic character falls. I did not.

It took me about thirty seconds to come up with five occasions.

Whining about Obi-Wan's mentoring to Padme, whining to Padme about his love for her, whining after the death of his mother, whining about Padme falling off the gunship, and whining about the council not making him a master.

I wouldn't call Anakin a loser. I don't like calling people losers. It's way too simplistic, even for me, removing all grading in favor of pass/fail, grouping people into one of two categories: winners, and losers. It ignores what I value in people in favor of that which I have little regard for. Honestly, I don't care if a person is a "winner" or a "loser". I don't need their success. I don't care if you're rich or poor, a success or a failure. I don't think those terms involve what I value, I don't think they say much about a person that has any value to me. I know a lot of failures who are really cool people, I know a lot of successful people who are terrible humans that I simply don't want to be around. I think one's character is often largely independent of their success in life, or lack thereof.

Going back to the beginning the thread...

For a person with a conscience, this is not easy. It's not an easy thing to smother. It's actually quite difficult, and requires one to endure a buttload of pain, guilt, anxiety, etc.

When? He's power hungry from the start of AOTC, and he accepts Sith power pretty much within minutes (or perhaps an hour or two) of being first offered it.

Well, I'd say the PT undermines the OT, because that's sorta/kinda what is portrayed, Anakin was evil all along, at least by the time he becomes an adult. An idealistic child is hardly special, it's to be expected. For it to be otherwise would just make Anakin some evil born, child of Satan character (which we have in the PT anyway, with the possibility that Anakin was created by the Sith, as Lucas seemingly put every idea he could think of in the movies; tragic, petulant, angry/resentful, afraid, fascist, son of Satan, etc, they're all there)

Loud, annoying, melodramatic outbursts of what is basically crying, which is petulant or in some way child-like. Often unjustified by the moment.

Dismissive or not, whining is whining, and not something I have much desire to see in a movie. I have no desire to listen to a baby cry for two hours, and this is not unreasonable. Am I also dismissing the real depth of a crying baby? Perhaps, but for good reason; I'm trying to enjoy myself in some way.

What you say about Anakin could probably be applied to most people. The kind of life they live, the kind of person they become, are directly linked. There are deep seeded reasons for their behavior.

It's just not relevant. Whiny is whiny. It's a character trait. Angry is angry. Hateful is hateful. Bigoted is bigoted. Funny is funny. Kind is kind. Of course there are reasons for those traits, there are always reasons. That doesn't somehow negate the trait.

It's easily considered for someone who throws temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way.

I don't really associate brat with privileges, just ill-tempered, bad-mannered people with foul dispositions. Anakin is one of them. He is ill-humored, and even the moments that are supposed to be good humored are either portrayed otherwise by Hayden, or unconvincing.

Okay, but surely you can see how terribly revolting this can be to some people?

There's a guy in the JCC who constantly tries to invalidate opinions by citing how successful he is, how attractive he is, how much money he has, the material possessions he has, and how much weight he can bench press. He has literally asked people (even middle aged women in poor health) how much they can bench press, and says that if it's not as much as him, their opinions are invalid.

Anakin is that guy.

I don't find it charming to always say what you think, when what you think is often awful. It would be different if he were saying things that were endearing to me. I don't consider socially awkward to be charming, either.

But you can see how awful this could appear to some people, right? I mean, I wouldn't call social manners, the way one is supposed to behave, "stupid". At least, not the ones I value, which apparently Anakin does not.

I wouldn't say Anakin was "rude", but he was definitely not gentle, imo. He was intense, rather fierce and aggressive. I would not call his behavior gentle, I'd say he was entirely lacking in tact.

Anakin had a mother. Surely she taught him social manners.

Most of us grew up with guardians who taught us to behave. Anakin had Shmi, and then the Jedi. You can't tell me that Obi-Wan didn't teach him manners, because we have evidence of his efforts to do so in the movies.

I'm a man. I can tell you that if a woman acted toward me the way Anakin did Padme, I would be extremely creeped out and uncomfortable. In fact, I've had this happen once, around their age, and I pretty much ran away I was so freaked out.

Padme actually says that Anakin made her uncomfortable, so I don't think you can say it's ridiculous, because it comes from her own mouth.

People talk about how it is dismissive to call Anakin whiny...but here you are dismissing the very intensely uncomfortable feelings that Anakin's behavior provoked from much of the audience. To them, he's creepy because he made them feel creeped out.

I would say being sensitive toward others is a great strength. Being oversensitive toward yourself, not so much.

They were forced into the arena against their will. Not a good example.

What are you talking about? He says it without emotion? He's on the verge of tears, he shouts the last two lines, and throws something across the room.

Of course she asks what's wrong. One, Anakin's line is literally an incomplete, leading statement that begs one to follow up with a question.

"It's all Obi-Wan's fault! He's jealous! He's holding me back!"

The obvious question is, what's all Obi-Wan's fault? He doesn't say, so it begs a question. (the obvious possible conclusion is the death of his mother, but it doesn't quite fit with jealousy. still, if you have any empathy, you have to ask)

Secondly, he's shouting in a high pitched rage. Who wouldn't ask what's wrong? A sociopath? Who would just go, "oh, okay" and then walk away? Either a sociopath, someone who doesn't care about Anakin, or someone who has severe problems dealing with emotional people. Padme is none of those.

But, I think Anakin DOES think it's true. He does think Obi-Wan is jealous and holding him back. He's thought this the entire movie, as we see multiple cases of evidence for this. He literally says Obi-Wan won't let him move on. That's he overly critical and unfair. He reminds Obi-Wan that it was he that rescued Obi-Wan from gundarks. When Obi-Wan says his senses are not that attuned, Anakin comes back with, "and yours are?" Obi-Wan mentioned the bit about rivaling Yoda as a swordsman, which Anakin thinks he already does, and Obi-Wan says "only in your mind". That's jealousy, to Anakin.

It continues in ROTS. Anakin thinks the Jedi Council is jealous of his power (Palpatine reinforces this, and Anakin believes it), and that by not making him a master they are holding him back. He "knows there are things about the Force (they) are not telling (him)." His suspicion that they are jealous of him has become downright paranoia.

It all pours out on Mustafar. The paranoid suspicion of Obi-Wan, which turns to jealousy as he thinks there's something between Padme and Obi-Wan. The ludicrous idea that he "should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over".

Eh, I'll quit for now...far longer than I intended, and sorta off topic.

 

I'll respond later to this so large post, but this

is absolutely inappropriate as concept for me. Normal people in most cotemporary cultures cry and crush after such event. They are depressed and sad, some of them are angry, bu nobody describes them as annoying and whining no matter that they cry and express discontent. I think every person could make the difference between both conditions , but surprise, I was wrong!. So if you didn't just troll to 'prove' that Anakin is more whining that it looks like, so you just have to explain your concept of feelings and moral because they look completelly different from what is presented in the movies and discussed here. Wait, maybe he must be joyful and happy as the old Thracians were at the funerals of their relatives? Or be indifferent? Or you are just saying that whining is "normal" and "usual" behaviour. If yes, why bother?

 

Stop.

The person I responded to stipulated that as an instance of whining, and I simply went with it. It's right there in the comment I quoted.

And you gave the post a like, soooooo.

I'm not exactly married to it.

 

Well, I somehow understand it for/because the death of his mother. If you meant the same thing as darkspine, I apologize strongly.
In the context when darkspine wrote it was clear he meant the 'against Obi Wan whining'.

 

I think it "counts" (whatever that means), even if it is justified (it is in this instance). Imagine a movie where a character whines the entire two hours, though all the whining is justified. It doesn't make the two hours of whining any less enjoyable to watch. Obviously Anakin doesn't approach a full two hours of whining...but he does seem to have a whiny attitude. He's very...disagreeable. The movie is just full of quarreling, there's even some between him and Padme. Some is fine, but in AOTC there's just too much.

Some of Luke's whining is justified (some definitely not), but justified or not, a lot of people didn't like his whining, either.

 

He's not whining to Padme about his feelings towards her. He's expressing himself. Nor is he whining when she falls out of the gunship. He's making a demand to go back and help her. And his complaints about the Council are in ROTS, not AOTC.

He's not power hungry until after his mother's death, not before then. Before then, he just believes that he should be a Knight which is not about power, but about arrogance. He starts to become obsessed with wanting more power after failing to save Shmi.

Lucas originally intended for Anakin to be created by the Sith, but he left it ambiguous most likely because people would think that he was destined to be evil, otherwise. But he's not evil as an adult until he chooses to be evil. Before then, he's just completely and emotionally messed up.

We just elected a guy who "tells it like it is." A lot of people like that.

Yes, but Palpatine has also fostered these personality traits in him. Anakin expresses himself the way he does due to that.

She says, "Don't look at me like that". The look he is giving her is one of love and that makes her uncomfortable, not because it is creepy, but because she's attracted to him.

 

Well... it's possible to be all of the above. I will say though, that he was much more likable in The Phantom Menace in Revenge of the Sith. Attack of the Clones was a strange time for Anakin, he was so close to being relatable, but always managed to say/do something that just comes off as uncomfortable (not necessarily unintentionally). I felt like Revenge of the Sith nailed the portrayal of Anakin as a brave and powerful warrior, and even cool and confident as well.

 

I'm using real world comparisons. According to the UN, all combat zone combatants must be over the age of 18.

 

Which Anakin was already past that age when the war began.

 

Oh sorry. Wrong thread!

 

A little late, but still I promised to clarify some things here.
First, let clarify that people change. Even in SW. I don't know CT-867-5309 maybe I'm wrong, but I have the impression that you insist that the characters are the same from the beginning to the end. And it is not about Anakin only, but about the Jedi Order also: they indeed changed during the time of the Clone Wars and definitely weren't what they should be or their code tells to be. Anyway, this is from another thread and I could be wrong. PT shows Anakin Skywalker in the times before he became Darth Vader. And he indeed changed. Anakin had conscience (his regret of the Tusken massacre, his doubts of the spying in Ep.3, his tears in Mustafar, etc. ) but when he fully transformed in Vader, he changed and yes, he has no conscience in Ep.4 and 5, in the end of Ep.5 his son began his awakening. In PT Anakin is unrefined but spontaneous. In OT he has the respective manners but is evil and cunning. It is sad, isn't it? So, in many aspects Anakin is the opposite of Vader (and in some others no, as is discussed above, but yes, he is complex character).
By the way, you said that his mother would teach him on social manners but I have to disagree. Social manners don’t consist only in the knowledge how to eat from a plate with a fork. Social manners means behave appropriate to the social situation. And his mother who is exceptional person couldn't teach him that. For the simple reason that she was a slave. So she knows how to salute Padme, but not senator/queen Amidala. Yes, Anakin knows that he has to bow and that's it. Anakin doesn't realize that Padme is Padme always, but in most of the time she is Senator and no matter that in the room is he, her friends and colleague and his teacher and somehow father, he should speak formally. For him this is informal circle. He knows that in the Palace of Naboo is a formal situation, but not in the apartment and there is indeed a formal situation. . Those thin differences in such sophisticated Victorian like type the PT era matter. That means he lacks of social manners. All these nuances are alien to him. Ad I think Padme like him that because is refreshing. All these sophisticated manners mean also one very unpleasant thing: hypocrisy. And Anakin have nothing of it.
I don't want to repeat for 101 times what happened between Padme and Ani on Naboo, but you are saying for him being aggressive, but how exactly? Because he kissed her? Come on, in this society it is not forbidden for people to express their feelings without the help of matchmakers. And i the so called sand scene he didn't make it aggressively, but gently. And of course, in the end he accepted what Padme said. And it wasn't 'I don't love you, actually'. And if you said that he was aggressive in the fireplace scene: please. He is sitting in a 20 cm of a woman dressed like that and he did nothing but explaining HIS feelings to her. So, the word aggressive should have new dimensions that I honestly don't know at all. And I'm not talking about physical aggression only. If you want to pick up an aggressive guy: Han Solo is the man, I mean in Ep.5 , in ROTJ he changes and I like him, but in Ep.5 his behaviour to Lea is absolutely despicable. He aggressively insists that SHE have to confess her feelings. Not to mention the manipulative, invading kiss. All Anakin did is to explain passionately that he loves Padme and to ask her for response: any response. It is not whining, is passion. To speak with passion is not a sin. I know, everybody loves DA cool, controlled, well tempered guys who ever express discontent, who is always in good mood who is always tough and cool, real Achilles and Hercules in the same time. Fine, only it is not real. It is the classical, pagan archetype of the superhero. Only it is not real. Lucas showed us more complex and human character but unfortunately too unusual for the genre.
Almost all these characteristics of the super mega cool hero are concentrated in Han Solo, the smuggler with a golden heart, that's why so many people like him but for me is boring and superfluous. Anakin is interesting and tangible, actually Luke is more like his father in that aspect and that's why I have always liked him.

 

Out of those three options? How about all of the above? Especially if you factor in TCW.

 

What's this entire "Anakin haves no manners to people in power" opinion? Anakin was a slave, the only people/things he knew who had power were criminals, slavery and thugs in general.

 

When we see Vader in the original trilogy he is in his 40's. He's had two decades to "calm down" and mature into the stoic badass we see in the OT.

 

Yes, also he transformed, i.e. changed. Vader has many characteristics than can‘t be seen in Ani and vice versa.

 

And also many that can.

But yes, the cold, emotionless demeanor of Vader is a very intentional contrast to Anakin with all his hot-headed passion. That's a huge part of the reason Anakin let himself become Darth Vader. It was easier for him to pretend his emotions no longer existed than it was for him to actually learn to deal with them.

 

I also agree that contrast is intentional.
Anakin turns to quell the metaphorical "dead-star dragon" that he fears will bring about his demise, and in doing so helps bring his demise about.
He really has little to feel emotional about anymore as post-ROTS Vader, just the left over quest for Order - that rose as he spiraled, then ended up as all he has.

 

I wouldn't say he's whiny except for the packing scene with Padme. And even then I think he's just a bit too exuberant in letting off some steam, which is understandable since Padme's arrival probably rekindled a lot of his old childhood hopes regarding how great he assumed a Jedi's life would be. Badass? A little bit, but not in the typical action hero manner. I'm thinking more of the bar scene in AOTC, where Anakin quietly stands out as a commanding presence in the room. Complex? Well, his arc gives me the most to chew on out of the whole series, so that's a yes.

 

He's the most complex character in the saga.

But, Lucas botched his characterization. He didn't have the writing skills to bring the character to bear in the PT. Anakin/Vader is a VICTIM in the PT. He is routinely outmaneuvered and manipulated.

 

1) Sometimes

2) Sometimes

3) Always!

 

I don't think he pretended his emotions no longer existed and I don't think he acted emotionless. Vader was quite often heated. I think he felt one emotion, very powerfully - hatred - and it fueled the Sith within him. He hated the Jedi Order; he hated Obi-Wan; but most of all, he hated himself. I think it was this hatred that fueled him. Not only this, but once he learned he had a son, his more human feelings, the goodness Luke felt, began to arise.

I also wouldn't describe Anakin as "hot headed." When I look back I think Anakin was actually quite a cool character. It was usually Obi-Wan getting worked up by Anakin's levity. Anakin was passionate towards Padme, but his disposition towards his Jedi teachings seemed to me to be relatively calm, as though it all came naturally to him. He was eager, yes, but that is something else.