CT Anakin's power was wasted

agreed on that. Plus, Richard Marquand was nowhere near being as good a director as Irvin Kershner

 

Incorrect. Midichlorians were described by Lucas in 1977 per the making of star wars.


Anyway. I rather like the way Vader destroys Palpatine-and it is one heck of a show of the Force. Luke gets put on his ass by a single blast of lightning that lasts barely a second; Vader takes lightning strong enough to make his skeleton glow and just casually strolls over to the reactor shaft

 

That's not a plot hole, it's an actual physical hole which is part of the plot! Not the same thing.

 

luckily he didn't put it on screen.

 

In fiction, whenever a prophesy is mentioned, it seems that the fulfillment occurs in a way that we least expect. I think the ending is poetic. In the end what beat Palpatine was not overwhelming brute power, it was the love of a father for his son. Anakin's power was wasted, but in the end he had an untapped power (love) that was enough to defeat the Emperor.

 

I think there's something really beautiful and incredibly powerful about the way he kills Palpatine. I also don't think he could've destroyed him in any other way. Here's how I see it...

Look at Vader - a man whose downfall wasn't entirely down to jealousy, greed and misfortune in his life. Sure he had lots to be bitter about but remember, one of the key reasons for his turn to evil was his love for Padme and his passion to keep her alive.

Palpatine used this to convince him to truly let the darkness in, he couldn't control it, it took him over. He was manipulated and though in ANH he seems like the big-evil, he was simply another pawn to Sidious, exactly like Dooku before him. He was tricked into carrying out evil deeds in the name of The Empire - it wasn't him that pushed the button to destroy Alderaan, remember?

I've always felt that he still had an element of humanity underneath it all, he almost seemed lost... Sneered at for his devotion to an "Ancient religion" - reliant on machinery to keep him alive... He was weak. An old man, weighed down by a lifetime of bad decisions, the only person he had left was The Emperor (Before his children). He could never have taken on Palpatine in his mental and physical state (Just imagine the internal conflict of the contrasting sides to the force tearing him apart inside). This is where his redemption has to be sought - and where I totally disagree with the opinion that the scene is weak.

For me, his redemption comes in three steps:

1. Luke tries to kill The Emperor and Vader blocks his blade. Though I don't think The Emperor was ever at risk - by stopping him, Vader effectively prevents Luke from falling to the dark side.

2. The throw. In the aid of his dying son, Vader summons every bit of strength he has to withstand the Emperor's power and quite literally overthrows his regime. That humanity within Vader shows moreso than ever at this moment - he couldn't have gone toe-to-toe with Palpatine... so instead of relying on the dark power that once corrupted him to defeat the Emperor - he channels it into a feat of real, physical, human strength - driven only by his will and determination to save Luke.

3. The removal of the mask. The first and only time he will truly bond with his son. He has accepted his death and is happy to shorten the time he does have left because he wants to use his own eyes - a massively poetic moment. Literally and metaphorically losing the mask that is 'Vader' and becoming Anakin once more. Then and ONLY then, does he achieve such a level of power that he can transcend into a spirit.

So, whether 'the prophecy' and his midi-chlorian count is considered or not... He could never have faced Palpatine in a force-battle because he simply wasn't ready. In the same way that Luke's final challenge was to confront his father, Vader's was to confront The Emperor... Anakin never became a Master and neither did Vader. The supposed Dark Lord was an apprentice right up until his dying breath - it's tragic.

His redemption is pure poetry and by far the greatest scene in the saga. 'Power' goes beyond simply using the force to beat seven shades in and out of each other.

Of course, this is all just my opinion and interpretation but thats the beauty of SW I guess, gives us all something different!

(Hope this is all relatively coherent by the way, I'm posting from my phone and I'm tired... A lethal combination)

Also. I'm curious... I don't wanna derail too much but can you divulge a little on this opinion? (I just really need you to prove you're not one of these 'Empire is best because everyone else told me it was!' people - I'm not saying you are, but thanks to pop-culture there's a LOT of them about these days... I'm determined to seek out those who act that way and wipe them out... All of them.)

 

Darth Venator,I think you made an interesting opinion in saying that Vader was trying to save Luke from falling to the dark side when he stopped his blade. I think just the opposite. I think that the Emperor WAS in danger, and in that moment showed total faith in Vader for defending his life....what would he have done in the 0.2 seconds before Luke's blade cut his throat?

I think both he and Vader knew that Vader alone could not turn Luke to the dark-side. Had Luke killed the Emperor there he would have killed Vader next. Vader had no choice but to wait until Luke was turned to the dark side to turn him against Palpatine.

 

The Supreme Chancellor I'm not saying he necessarily had the sole intention of saving Luke from turning, but consequently - by blindly protecting The Emperor, he basically did! (Note I did use 'effectively' in my post!)

I agree completely with what you said about Palpatine's faith in Vader. That's what I was getting at when I said he was never at risk - I just didn't explain it! (It was late, I was tired ) The moment is like an echo of when he put his faith in Anakin to save him from Mace in RotS (or rather, the faith in his own skill of manipulating Anakin into blindly protecting him, Vader was sImply a pawn after all).

I love it because it's even more of an example of how Vader is 'lost' and yet another testament to The Emperor's sheer power and manipulation of Vader... And in-turn it makes Vaders change even more powerful, in that The Emperor suddenly no longer has his puppetmaster like control over Vader.

Though - I'm not sure I agree with you that if Luke had killed Palpatine there and then, that he would've then moved on and killed Vader. At least, not without a fair attempt at redeeming him first. If he did kill him I like to think it'd be in an act of begrudging self-defense, as Vader attempts to avenge his dead master.

Then cue Luke having a huge identity crisis, plagued by the guilt of failing to save his father... Now that would make for an interesting end to the story... ;D

 

Which is probably why he was the "Chosen One" in the end.

 

Many intresting things, have i read on this thread.

 

I kinda like how mundane it is in the end as a physical act compared to a prophesy. The Chosen One had gone down a beaten path, become more machine than man, but eventually his love and humanity asserts himself even though he's freakin half robot with a robot hand chopped off. Like the prophesy is all flowery and wordy and High faloutin and important like but in the end it came down "What the ... hey! put me down! ahhhhhh!" *splat, explode*. Of course having an evil wizard explode is still pretty darn spectacular.

 

Maybe more was involved in bringing balance to the Force than we know about - yet. Maybe it wasn't just throwing Palpatine down the shaft that brought balance to the Force; maybe his whole life mattered. Maybe he was supposed to have children, and maybe his children play a role in fulfilling the prophecy. Maybe being the Chosen One didn't just mean his power level would be over 9000, maybe it meant he would make certain choices in life that would have certain consequences. Maybe we'll find out. Or, maybe chucking Palps was it.

 

In his defense, he had never done anything near this big before. Some directors can handle the huge leap, some can't.

 

.....but really how much control did Richard Marquand have over the direction of the film, remember he had a certain Mr. Lucas watching his every move!

 

A huge battle was unnecessary. For approximately thirty years (more like forty, if you take into consideration how close Anakin and Vader were before Anakin's turn to the Dark Side) Palpatine had kept Vader on a leash and commanded him. Vader was Palpatine's ultimate prize; all of Palpatine's previous apprentices and all of his planning ultimately led up to his training of Vader. The last thing that Palpatine had expected was for Vader to rise up and betray him.

Vader did what he had to do to save his son. He was in pain after his battle with Luke, but if found it in himself to pick Palpatine up and throw him down the shaft, saving his son and inadvertently fulfilling the Prophecy of the Chosen One. A huge Force battle would have been unnecessary and redundant; a weak and morally conflicted Vader saw his chance and he took it.

 

What I always liked about this scene (pre NOOOOOOOOOOOOO) was the internal conflict.

To the A.D.D. crowd, there's just overly dramatic music paused on an expressionless mask.

To me, there is internal conflict, a battle raging behind the mask, as Vader is about to do the first selfless act in his life. As for the lack of a battle, sometimes a quick knife in the back is even sweeter when nobody sees it coming... Think Julius Caesar in honor of the recent March 15... In fact, since Lucas often cites Rome and Nazi Germany as his influences for the Empire, Caesar was stabbed on the floor of the Senate and Hitler killed himself in a bunker. Neither was a glorious all out battle to the finish. Et tu, Vader?

 

What I always loved when watching Vader is just how much of a powerhouse performance there is actually present considering the mask's lack of expression.

Take for instance the lightsaber construction discussion with Luke, his body language is great, same with the RotJ finale. He manages to convey that inner conflict perfectly.

Anyone taking issue with the mask is completely beyond me! Shame on them!

 

I've always found the mask to be quite expressive.

 

Same here. How that was achieved, I have no idea.

 

I agree with this

 

Well, I think Vader's mask looks like it is in a permanent expression of pain and sadness, which fits the character well.

The mouth in particular looks sad, the triangle looks like a curling, quivering lower lip, like a baby about to cry, which for me goes along with Vader's asthma, asthma once being considered psychological and wheezing interpreted as a child's suppressed cry for its mother. It may not be specifically Jungian, but it's from the same line of psychoanalysis springing from Freud. The jutting chin goes along with the crying baby expression.

The eyes are huge, black and without pupils, making them seem glazed over, as if depressed and lifeless. Even the helmet/eyebrows seem more pouty than actually angry or hateful.

It first stood out to me near the end of ROTJ, and I thought the glow of the lightning on Vader's mask accentuated the pathetic aspect of his character quite well.

lol, the light looks a bit like a tear dripping from his right eye.

 

In my opinion, it was the ultimate moment, exactly the way Lucas (originally) portrayed it. A moment so powerful that it's the very opposite of 'weak.'