Anakin's profoundly human frailty

Such great posts everybody!

I had been avoiding doing my dissertation by reading the love story thread, but it was thinning out intensity-wise...this takes up the slack there! great insights from everyone...

I'm continuing to try to digest all the connections, all the JC quotes, and other allusions...

Anakin is so wanting to taste life. (while hamlet contemplates suicide) I think that's why he seems
so weirdly immature for a 20-year-old (and hamlet seems ancient)
Recall a scene I really loved--when HC says he's finding it intoxicating to be near Padme, and he does that catching-his-breathe gesture.
Obiwan seems so concerned by it, as well he should be.

Anakin wants to be allowed to live. He welcomes the pain of life/love. Not just to replace his mother's I-love-you-best.

I agree that the jedi order doesn't create a warm loving family...and that's why its so important to get the younglings in really young.

But Anakin doesn't just want to be someone's "best beloved", I think. He also wants to *love*. We'll see if he can handle it well, because the pain and suffering that comes with that is trickier, especially for someone who feels that it's possible for him to change things so drastically.


I like the idea of thinking about Hamlet as a contrast point..
Hamlet being another hero/figure I spent way too much time thinking about (in high school, I fell in love with Derek Jacobi's Hamlet, and then spent zads of time reading Freudian-type analyses of his issues).

Hamlet's problem seems the opposite of Anakin's doesn't it?

Too small, not bile-ful enough to do the single act of vengeance he is required to do. He can't make himself
love ophelia properly, too small for it.

Anakin is too big, so angry and passionate that he moves beyond single acts of required reaction and on to
destroy everything. And he can't stop himself from loving Padme.

Both frail, in such different ways...

 

I do think though that Obiwan really does like/love Anakin.

I think he has genuine affection for him, but he worries greatly that he is out of his or anyone's control.

I think back to how in TPM he tried to convince Qui-gon that Anakin is dangerous, as the Council believed.
I don't think that such a feeling could go away completely.

But Obiwan got over the pangs of rejection he initially felt when Quigon seemed to toss him aside.

I thnk that Anakin, though he loves Obiwan too, never really gets past it that Obiwan worries in the back of his mind that Anakin might be dangerous. It makes him slightly distrust Obiwan, against his better instincts.
They both must know how important trust is to their relationship, and try to maintain it, but when there is discord it is easier for them than a 'normal' master/padawan pair to feel deep misgivings and even a sense of betrayal.

all that will play itself out doubtless in ep3 battle.
i get all worked up and my heart races...really!...
just thinking about that scene to come...

 

Something occurred to me while driving into work today regarding these quotes I posted:

Moyers: What is the illumination?

Campbell: The illumination is the recognition of the radiance of one eternity through all things, whether in the vision of time these things are judged as good or evil. To come to this, you must first release yourself completely from desiring the goods of this world adn fearing their loss. "Judge not that you be not judged," we read in the words of Jesus. "If the doors of perception were cleansed," wrote Blake, "man would see everything as it is, infinite."

EPISODE 3 mumblings...not spoilers...just wonderings....

Anakin has a problem of not letting go of things. Does anyone else think it's possible that ANAKIN will figure out the riddle of the Force, and that humans do not exist but are actually "luminous beings?" Death is something he has a very difficult time dealing with "Why did she have to die?...I will even learn to stop people from dying."- obviously. If he figures this out, it will easily explain why he refuses to die, until he finally comes to grip with his true purpose in life in ROTJ.

Technically he should probably have died in EP3, but instead he holds onto his human form and becomes cybernetically enhanced. I've always wondered why he appeared at the end of ROTJ as a blue ghosty since he didn't disappear at the point of death.

Here?s more JC to muddle over with Anakin?s reasoning for not allowing himself to die or become his true self?

Moyers: Why must a hero do that[journey into the belly of the whale]?

Campbell: It's a descent into the dark. Psychologically, the whale represents the power of life locked in the unconscious. Metaphorically, water is the unconscious, and the creature in the water is the life or energy of the unconscious, which has overwhelmed the conscious personality and must be disempowered, overcome and controlled....

You see, consciousness thinks it's running the shop. But it's a secondary organ of a total human being, and it must not put itself in control. It must submit and serve the humanity of the body. When it does put itself in control, you get a man like Darth Vader in Star Wars, the man who goes over to the consciously intentional side.

Moyers: The dark figure.

Campbell: Yes, that's the figure that in Goethe's Faust is represented by Mephistopheles.

Moyers: But I can hear someone saying, "Well that's all well and good for the imagination of George Lucas or for the scholarship of Joseph Campbell, but that isn't what happens in my life."

Campbell: You bet it is- and if he doesn't recognize it, it may turn him into Darth Vader. If the person insists on a certain program, and doesn't listen to the demands of his own heart, he's going to risk a schizophrenic crackup. Such a person has put himself off center. He has aligned himself with a program for life, and it's not the one the body's interested in at all. The world is full of people who have stopped listening to themselves or have listened only to their neighbors to learn what they ought to do, how they ought to behave, and what the values are that they should be living for.

OK So Anakin denies his true destiny because he is completely wrapped up in his emotions as a human being, he in effect rejects his hero call, and descends into darkness. Why? Because of love?.

Moyers:: But you've been saying that love involves suffering.

Campbell: That is the other idea. Tristan was experiencing love-Meiaster Eckhart was talking about it. The pain of love is not the other kind of pain, it is the pain of life. Where your pain is, there is your life, you might say....

Moyers: So joy and pain are in love.

Campbell: Yes. Love is the burning point of life, and since all life is sorrowful, so is love. The stronger the love, the more the pain.

Moyers: But love bears all things.

Campbell: Love itself is a pain, you might say- the pain of being truly

 

It's interesting how the prequels affect the throne room scenes in Return of the Jedi. There are two big ones to me.

First, when Vader saves Luke. I always liked to camerawork while Luke was calling for help. (close up to Vader's helmet), and I always wanted to know what was going on in Vader's mind during those moments leading up to his decision to turn on the emperor. Know that we "know" Anakin Skywalker, I want to know even more. Even though I knew what was going to happen, I found myself thinking "c'mon anakin, do it" notice I said ANAKIN, not vader. Instead of Vader turning good, it's Anakin came back.

Second, when Luke burns Vader's armor. Originally I felt bad for Luke etc etc, but not too emotional about it. But since we know Anakin from the prequels, it hits a little harder. My mind wanders back to "the good old days of the republic", Anakin and Padme, the Jedi, obi-wan in particular. Old friends long gone, as Yoda put it. Even though the story ends happily, I find it to be very sad ending, since we know the things are still not as good as they were back in the days of the old republic.

 

UP

 

Thank you, PLJ. Exactly.

 

niu354

You've just hit the nail on the head to the purpose of the PT, it is to humanize the man behind the mask of Vader.

It's interesting Joseph Campbell died in 88? 89? so he never got to see the prequels. I think he would have been even more impressed w/ GL than he was w/ just the OT. GL is doing such a brilliant job at creating the perfect myth- with the fallen father, and the son's quest to discover his father. And as JC says- The quest to find the father, ultimately becomes the quest of the hero to find himself and his destiny.

Viewed together PT/OT the moments w/ Luke and Vader/Anakin take on whole new meaning and depth.

I just have to give kudos to HC, each time I rewatch one of the OT films I pick up more stances, poses, walks, head tilts that he perfectly incorporated into Anakin. The result is every time I watch Vader posing just like Anakin- I sense his humanity inside the suit. His humanity isn't completely gone. It's just completely fascinating.

Polaris_Fett- you're welcome

 

Yes, but PLJ, he might be rolling over in his grave at Anakin's attachment to his mother. Campbell was never big on women as anything more than archtypes for the (male) hero to react to. I still flinch at his declaration that women should just be while men should do. I think Senator Amidala, buttkicker of nexu, would beg to differ.

And no, I'm not trying to start something here, I'm just making an observation. That's all.

 

Yeah I love this thread and after listening to AOTC on audiobook,reading all of the StarWars novels and seeing the movie i can truly say Anakin is one of the most tragic and complex figures of the saga. I also saw a doll of Anakin in this funny shaped box i think it was from when Anakin was a grown man and he was standing beside Obi and Yoda in ROTJ. Well I read the accompanying manuel and indeed Anakin from what i read was 3/4 machine and 1/4 human.
They showed the artistic side in terms of how Darth Vader came to be and also gave the story which i truly enjoyed. He was a dichotomy of hero_villian, father-tyrant. He was just complex as hell and I am beginning to love him out of all the characters. I guess only through Luke's love and it was unconditional at that was Anakin finally able to free himself, but boy did he have to suffer for it.

 

Pandawan, I just wanted to say that I really like your comments about how Obi Wan and Anakin relate to each other. Very insightful, especially the parts about Anakin's unconcious tendency towards distrust. I would add that, at the back of *his* mind, he might worry that Obi Wan holds it against *him* that he lost his own Master, twice, because of him. I'm not saying that this is what happened, of course, (Qui Gon may have died in the battle regardless of Anakin's presence) I'm just saying that Anakin might believe it.

Oh, and your name is uber-cute.

 

Campbell was never big on women as anything more than archtypes for the (male) hero to react to. I still flinch at his declaration that women should just be while men should do.

Polaris

Humm interesting. Granted his works don't seem to give much perspective for women other than being the temptress or the virgin mother. I guess that's where GL's genius comes in- that he decided instead of making the women just in the background, he gave them life and fullness. The ladies of the SW films are the backbones of the Skywalker men. They are there for moral support as well as equals in fights and brainpower. It is what sets SW apart from any other usual kind of genre films out there and seperates them from the "myths of old."

 

Very true. Bad me, I was actually surprised with Padme's characterization as more intelligent and on top of things (so to speak...thanks, Obi Wan! ) than Anakin's. For some reason, I always thought it would be the other way around. I'm happy GL decided to go this route. And I am thrilled to finally see some female Jedi. I remember being told years ago that there never were women Jedi. Fine, I'll go off and be a bounty hunter, then!

No, I wasn't criticizing GL for his female characters (my only suggestion is that SW could use a few more of them, really) I was just reflecting that Campbell could create such a comprehesive synthesis of mythic thought that encompasses so much of world culture and still not get past that last hurdle. Not that he's the only one to do so, it's just that some of the actual myths hold more than he chooses to examine, at times. Sort of a silly comment, really, since he is looking at archetypes. There's a fine line between an archetype and a stereotype when it gets translated to popular culture, I guess is my point. If I have a point, which I'm not sure I do.

 

"Viewed together PT/OT the moments w/ Luke and Vader/Anakin take on whole new meaning and depth.

I just have to give kudos to HC, each time I rewatch one of the OT films I pick up more stances, poses, walks, head tilts that he perfectly incorporated into Anakin. The result is every time I watch Vader posing just like Anakin- I sense his humanity inside the suit. His humanity isn't completely gone. It's just completely fascinating. "

That's what I was forgetting to respond to. YES! He did an amazing job. One I didn't quite "get" at first, ( I *am* a slow learner ) but after *cough* several viewings, I appreciate the subtle links he makes with his characterization of Anakin. The proof of this, for me, was when I watched the OT for the first time after seeing AOTC. It was Anakin all the way. The character I knew as Vader was gone. I could see HC's face behind the mask, hear the measured way he speaks. His motives make sense now. The fight with Obi Wan hurts to watch now. The scenes with Luke...man. All I can say is...Wow. Cool.

And I like how you said it was Vader posing like Anakin, not the other way around. It's Anakin who's the real character, Vader is just a shadow of him, walking around in the suit until Anakin wakes up. You see flashes of Anakin,now, though. So cool. So, so cool.

 

Thanks for the compliment on the name, Polaris_Fett...
I think you do indeed have an important point about JC. He could indeed have spent
more energy on the women, but the myths he analyses tend to be very male-based, so the archetypes are indeed based on a ...dare I say it...patriarchal framework.
That is part of the brilliance of GL, I agree, that he went beyond what history
offered him to a great degree, and thusly
captured many more imaginations than he would have otherwise!
Perhaps GL's characterizations will help in the development of some new 'archetypes'?
Or at least help with that fine line
you mention between archetype and stereotype, allow sex to be less relevant...

I will always be grateful to you, PLJ, for
alerting me to how HC does his work to connect Vader and Anakin behavior/mannerism-wise.

My son, who I'm probably nuts for letting
go see AOTC twice now (he's 6), once with
daddy and once with me, has been asking
to watch ANH on vhs a lot more than
usual lately. Perhaps he too is working
through all those connections? I bet so...

And I agree Polaris_Fett, that Anakin probably worries, however so back of the mind, that Obiwan feels he was responsible
for Quigon's 'rejecting' him as a padawan and
for his death...maybe he even
feels a little responsible for his death
somehow, with all that he tends to feel
responsible for...

 

Oh, and if people want a place for more
female jedi characters....

Do please try the Jedi Apprentice series
by Jude Watson! Some great female characters of all sorts, great jedi masters who are women, great jedi apprentices,
a great bounty hunter, a great evil doer...
delicious!

I just love that series...the only EU
I truly love. She also did a kinda cute
'leia's journal' which was in fact her
entree into the EU. Yes, these are young
adult books, but only because they're
short IMO. They're very good, especially for their character development.

okay, not another one of my rants on how good those books are...

 

Pandawan, aren't they great? I read the first couple when they first came out, but school got in the way, alas. But now I find a whole series to catch up on! I'm still working my way through the first half dozen or so. I want to read all the JA books before I start into the Obi Wan/Anakin books. I like to read in order.

"I think you do indeed have an important point about JC. He could indeed have spent
more energy on the women, but the myths he analyses tend to be very male-based, so the archetypes are indeed based on a ...dare I say it...patriarchal framework. "

Ya think, eh?

You dare, indeed, and rightly so. Thanks for agreeing with me, actually; I wasn't sure how that particular remark was going to be taken. But yes, he did claim to encompass world mythology, yet there are some many aspects he could have examined but did not because they didn't fit his theoretical framework.

"That is part of the brilliance of GL, I agree, that he went beyond what history
offered him to a great degree, and thusly
captured many more imaginations than he would have otherwise!"

Yes! More so, I dare say, than the OT. At least, more easily than the OT.

Perhaps GL's characterizations will help in the development of some new 'archetypes'?
Or at least help with that fine line
you mention between archetype and stereotype, allow sex to be less relevant..."

I hope so. And I think that they may. GL will never win an Oscar for his complex portrayals of the female psyche, but I think we can safely say Padme is a far cry from anything JC would have envisioned. She's the earth mother, and the source of the "redeemer" but well.....she can also kick some serious butt, and she's involved in the events that shape the galaxy and an active and outspoken defender of her people.

You know what my favourite little Vaderism of Anakin's was? When he was standing on the balcony meditating. I was looking at Vader without realising it...just his stance and the arc of his shoulders, and the way he held his arms. It's him in ESB, staring out the window after Luke. I just sort of blinked and went, "Oh!"

"My son, who I'm probably nuts for letting
go see AOTC twice now (he's 6), once with
daddy and once with me, has been asking
to watch ANH on vhs a lot more than
usual lately. Perhaps he too is working
through all those connections? I bet so..."

That's so cool! And he'll grow up with it all making sense, and not having to wait TWENTY YEARS to find out the real story. And no, 6 is a fine age. You have to start the training early, after all.

"And I agree Polaris_Fett, that Anakin probably worries, however so back of the mind, that Obiwan feels he was responsible
for Quigon's 'rejecting' him as a padawan and
for his death...maybe he even
feels a little responsible for his death
somehow, with all that he tends to feel
responsible for..."

Exactly. It's just a theory, of course, but in my mind it explains a lot about why he acts the way he does towards Obi Wan. I mean, Anakin's greatest fear is losing his mother, so it makes sense that he would fear Obi Wan would resent him for "making" him lose his own parental figure. I'm glad that didn't sound like too much of a stretch there.

"okay, not another one of my rants on how good those books are... "

Aww. But why?

What are you writing your dissertation on, by the way? I promise not to ask when you plan to be finished.

 

Polaris_Fett,
thanks for not asking about time_to_completion!

I've been at this PhD thing a good while now...
In developmental psychology,actually...cognitive development..
but perhaps I'd have been better off with history-of-western-thought or some such, given how much I enjoy this stuff!

Ah...to follow your bliss . Should have probably taken Campbell more seriously, patriarchy aside...

 

Wow, I've had a great time reading this thread. It's nice to know some Star Wars fans still care to discuss the thoughtful parts of the saga, which are what make me fan. I mean, just plain powerful storytelling is everywhere in these films.

 

Pandawan, trust me, I know better than to ask that. I don't need you putting out any contracts on me with Jango!


Cognitive development is a fascinating field. Blissful, even, if you're doing what you want to be doing. I'm envious! And it's not such a stretch from, say, Jung to Campbell, is it? And, since Campbell mentions Star Wars, that needs to be examined in detail, too, of course. We'll just call it supplementary research.

 

Just thought this might be interesting to post:

Midway in our life's journey, I went astray
from the straight road and woke to find myself
alone in a dark wood. How shall I say

what wood that was! I never saw so drear,
so rank, so ardious a wilderness!
Its very memory give a shape to fear.

Death could scarce be more bitter than that place!
But since it came to good, I will recount
all that I found revealed there by God's grace.

How I came to it I cannot rightly say,
so drugged and loose with sleep I had become
when I first wandered there from the True Way.

But at the far end of that valley of evil
whose maze had sapped my heart with fear
I found myself before a little hill

and lifted up my eyes. Its shoulders glowed already with the sweet rays of that planet
whose virtue leads men straight on every road,

and the shining strengthened me against the fright
whose agony had wracked the lake of my heart
through all the terrors of that piteous night.

Just as a swimmer, who with his last breath
flounders ashore from perilous seas, might turn
to memorize the wide water of his death-

so did I turn, my soul still fugitive
from death's surviving image, to stare down
that pass that none had ever left alive.

Definitely one of the best introductions in literature. I hope this relates somehow to Anakin.

 

Ah, Dante.

 

The_Abstract, another fantastic pithy post. The Inferno and the circles of damnation indeed. Lucas has said that he just tells old stories in new ways.

Your reference to Dante's Inferno has given me other ideas, (Paulo and Francesca, Dante and Beatrice) that are better put on the Love Story thread.

In some ways, the story of Anakin is the story of the creation of a bully. One of the better bits of wisdom my mother gave me is this: a bully is someone who is weak, afraid, and angry, so he hides these things by making others feel weak, afraid, and angry.

 

this thread is amazing!

I love all of the insights about Anakin's character. Discussing Anakin's character arc gives greater meaning to the entire story.

And, I totally agree, it is Vader posing like Anakin on the Imperial Star Destroyer, as he thinks about Luke. For future generations, who watch the movies Epi1 thru Ep6 (in that order) that scene is going to be really poignant. And cheers to HC (and Lucas) for having the good sense to incorporate this into AoTC.

 

Thank you Falls the Shadow

I completely agree that more should be posted about this in the Official Love Story thread. Guess I have to re-read the Divine Comedy now.

 

"Second, when Luke burns Vader's armor. Originally I felt bad for Luke etc etc, but not too emotional about it. But since we know Anakin from the prequels, it hits a little harder. My mind wanders back to "the good old days of the republic", Anakin and Padme, the Jedi, obi-wan in particular. Old friends long gone, as Yoda put it. Even though the story ends happily, I find it to be very sad ending, since we know the things are still not as good as they were back in the days of the old republic."

I totally agree niu354. I watch rotj now and see a handsome earnest face and blue eyes behind that mask. It makes you sad knowing what all he's been through and done. In TPM, I couldn't make the connections between little Ani and Vader, so I was skeptical at Aotc, boy was I wrong. HC's portrayal of Anakin has made me look at the trilogy now and really "know" Vader better, he seems more complex that just the bad guy in the black cape. His vulnerabilites are exposed now, and he's human. I found myself not rooting against him like I thought I would but wanting things to turn out all right for him (which we knew sadly doesn't for a long time...)