Anakin's profoundly human frailty

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darthkarma, May 25, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    Well Ab and Falls... those were some of the saddest and deepest post these BBhave seen in a long time.. well done...
  2. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Abstract,

    Yes, I need the Kleenex. I cried in 1985, the first time I saw this scene and I cried when I read the book.

    These are not themes a child could understand. I hope that someday you will understand what I mean when I say, IMO, GL should have had the courage of his convictions and not written these movies for children.

    To show them from the point of view of the droids (Lauren and Hardy in hardware) and to add characters like Jar Jar makes them more like a farce than the serious and getting more serious, drama that they are.

    Just my opinion.

  3. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Darth Breezy,

    Thank you. For once I used images to communicate the ideas: GL's end of AOTC seems to be rubbing off on me.

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Consider the fools and humor that are in Shakespeare's works: like the droids, they sometime mirror the main plot in a humorous way or just simply give the audience a needed rest. The death of Mercutio, the humorous friend of Romeo signals the turning point of for Romeo and Juliet. Our droids will likely have a memory wipe, a virtual death in Ep III.

    SW works at the child's adventure level, the teen (or older) eye candy level, and the mythic level, bringing the audience in at one level and as they mature, brining them to a higher level. I happened to be a young child when ANH came out, and the droids, Princess Leia, and the lightsabers were the main draws for me. I didn't see AOTC 8 times for costumes, droids, and lightsabers.
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Falls,

    I think your signature says it all. I love T. S. Eliot and Shakespeare.

    I just think GL missed a big chance, that's all. And it's just my opinion.

    I didn't see AOTC 3 times for droids, costumes and lightsabers or CGI effects, either. I would have seen it more, but the theaters here sent it on its way rather quickly.

    I am waiting patiently for Nov., so I can buy the DVD and watch it till the computer burns out. No, I don't have to watch it on the tiny computer screen. I have a commercial Sony 27" monitor to watch it on, with 6 speaker surround sound.

    Future generations will enjoy SW and I know they will grow in maturity and see it and understand it as a modern myth.

  5. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    SW works at the child's adventure level, the teen (or older) eye candy level, and the mythic level, bringing the audience in at one level and as they mature, brining them to a higher level.

    Couldn't agree with you more on that. Really, is there anything quite like Star Wars? Every time I think I'm over my interest in the saga, I discover a new aspect I'm just completely intrigued by.
  6. Palpateen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2000
    star 4


    "SW works at the child's adventure level, the teen (or older) eye candy level, and the mythic level, bringing the audience in at one level and as they mature, brining them to a higher level."

    That's a brilliant observation on how multi-leveled Star Wars is...how many movies or movie series can make that claim? Not many.
  7. Kesel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 1999
    star 4
    Great stuff. Really gives me a new found appreciation for RotJ. I can't wait to have my 12 hour marathon in 2005.
  8. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    DB


    Thanks so much for the compliment. When I started out, I didn't know if it would all make sense. [face_shocked]


    Falls_the_Shadow

    Thanks you for posting those pics. They were an inspiration. My ears aren't as good as yours but I was finally able to catch the soundbite your were talking about.

    I promised myself I wouldn't cry but I'm a sucker for visual poetry.

    :_|


    And I can't forget about Obi-Can. You have been a viligent and respectful conversationalist. I take your post as a great compliment. [face_blush]

  9. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    This is a page 1 thread.
  10. Melancholy Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2002
    star 4
    The_Abstract,

    That was great stuff. Yes, it makes complete sense.

    Couldn't agree with you more on that. Really, is there anything quite like Star Wars? Every time I think I'm over my interest in the saga, I discover a new aspect I'm just completely intrigued by. -TheVioletBurns

    You and me both.


    These are not themes a child could understand.

    GL should have had the courage of his convictions and not written these movies for children.

    -Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi


    I completely agree. I think George had something here. In some ways, he let it slip away.

    It doesn't help that pseudo-intellectuals posing as film critics refuse to give these films the praise and admiration they deserve.

    It may have affected him more than he lets on. It may have pushed him into a different direction in terms of overall content and detail.

    Future generations will enjoy SW and I know they will grow in maturity and see it and understand it as a modern myth. - Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    I hope you are right because it deserves to be so.


    SW works at the child's adventure level, the teen (or older) eye candy level, and the mythic level, bringing the audience in at one level and as they mature, brining them to a higher level. I happened to be a young child when ANH came out, and the droids, Princess Leia, and the lightsabers were the main draws for me. I didn't see AOTC 8 times for costumes, droids, and lightsabers.- Falls_the_Shadow

    I couldn?t agree more. Like you, I was a very young child when ?A New Hope? came out. Back then, all I was interested in was Vader, Chewbacca and the visuals. However, by the time of ESB, I was fully engrossed in the story while still quite young. No doubt, it is the story that matters most. But we have to look at it from George?s point of view. These films cost serious money. He needs to bring in as many people into the theaters as he can. I think he knows that it hits serious SW fans differently than the general population. It?s a fine line for him to have to walk.

    He has to try and hit on all cylinders to please the masses. If he just catered to us, what we would see on the screen would be far cry from we have now simply because of cost.

    It's one of those unfortunate aspects that we always end up having to learn to accept.
  11. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi,

    Thanks for the compliment on my signature. Ever since the Ep I teaser poster (see my icon) the PT imagery is dominated by shadows. I'd do back flips of joy if Ep III's title is Falls the Shadow.

    In time, SW will be seen as a cautionary tale of a failed hero who had the potential to illuminate himself and his known universe. For instance, he could have literaly become a world redeemer: remember lost Alderaan. That planet would be saved if he had refused Palpatine in Ep III. Even as late as Ep IV, standing at the window with Leia, he could have stopped Tarkin with ease, a simple choke would do. Instead, he became a shadow of the man he could have chosen to be.

    He isn't the Chosen One until he chooses to embrace the Light Side.

    Free will is both a profound human frailty and strength: whether our daily choices and great choices are for good or ill determine whether it is a strength or weakness.

  12. The Butler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1999
    star 4
    Excellent analysis, The_Abstract and Falls the Shadow! You bring up such great points.

    As a child, I was terribly impressed by Vader when he threw the Emperor into the energy core, but his final moment with Luke just went over my head. It was only after watching AOTC that I start crying during that scene.

    However, I think Lucas was right to make the films for children. Yes, he could have made the movies deeper and subtler if adults were his only audience, but his influence would have been much smaller.

    I'm not from a religious family, so my concepts of good and evil mostly came from Star Wars. The idea of staying away from the Dark Side--fear, anger, aggression--quietly sank in while I paid attention to the flashy effects. I think that was what Lucas wanted.

    BTW, Shadow, "The Hollow Man" is a frightening poem. It freaked me out in class.

  13. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    The_Butler
    Thanks.
    I suggest another threads that might interest the posters here. Mythology of AOTC

    And of course the book, The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell. TheForce.Net main page has a link on him and Lucas.

    Melancholy, thanks for your comments. The broad appeal of SW across age groups I see as a strength, not a weakness. As The_Butler said, while watching SW as a child, "[t]he idea of staying away from the Dark Side--fear, anger, aggression--quietly sank in while I paid attention to the flashy effects."
    Reading the King Arthur legend as told in T.H. White's The Once and Future King I was taken in by the magic tricks of Merlin, not understanding fully until later the lessons he and White were teaching.
    Perhaps GL did cater SW to a broad audience for financial, rather than artistic reasons. I believe like The_Butler that the broad appeal was not for financial reasons alone.

    The_Butler, Yes, "The Hollow Men" is more disturbing than any horror film. Not until this May when I was looking for a login name on this board did I make the connection of "Falls the Shadow" and the PT. This "Hollow Men" excerpt below reminds me of what is to come in Ep III and beyond, the Jedi Purge, the ghostly Kenobi, and Anakin's form more machine than man.

    "Shape without form, shade without colour,
    Paralysed force, gesture without motion;

    Those who have crossed
    With direct eyes, to death's other Kingdom
    Remember us -- if at all -- not as lost
    Violent souls, but only
    As the hollow men
    The stuffed men."

  14. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    This wonderful thread deserves an up!
  15. The Butler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1999
    star 4
    I used to avoid T.S. Eliot, because his work is so depressing. (Walt Whitman was my type of poet.) But Falls inspired me to read a bit of Eliot. Here was one passage that struck me:

    After such knowledge, what forgiveness? Think now
    History has many cunning passages, contrived corridors
    And issues, deceives with whispering ambitions,
    Guides us by vanities. Think now
    She give when our attention is distracted
    And what she gives, gives with such supple confusions
    That the giving famishes the craving. Gives too late
    What's not believed in, or if still believed,
    In memory only, reconsidered passion. Gives too soon
    Into weak hands, what's thought can be dispensed with
    Till the refusal propagates a fear. Think
    Neither fear nor courage saves us. Unnatural vices
    Are fathered by our heroism. Virtues
    Are forced upon us by our impudent crimes.
    These tears are shaken from the wrath-bearing tree.


    --"Gerontion"
  16. The Butler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1999
    star 4
    We won't know until Episode III, but I think history was cruel to Anakin. No doubt he saw the events of AOTC as a turning point for the Jedi Order--perhaps he thought he was the only one who could break from the old ways and rescue the galaxy. Already, we see Palpatine "deceive with whispering ambitions" and "guide by vanities." If Palpatine offered Anakin a chance to save the Order through "unorthodox methods," Anakin would accept.

    It's hinted in the OT that, up to their duel, Obi-Wan believed he could redeem Anakin. Anakin, who always wanted others' trust, would feel that Obi-Wan's faith was "given too late." On the other hand, Shmi's love was "given too soon"--Anakin thought he could wait ten years to see her again. With Shmi's loss comes the fear of losing loved ones and the fear of powerlessness.

    Those fears, which fuels the Dark Side, will give Anakin strength--which may be mistaken for courage. Anakin's fear drives him to deeds that may appear heroic--but his deeds will ultimately lead to the rise of the Empire.

    It's Anakin's tragedy that he thought he was taking a hero's path. In protecting Padme, trying to rescue Obi-Wan, and confronting Dooku, he was doing the right thing. When Chancellor Palpatine offers him power, Anakin will view it as another opportunity for heroism. We all knows how that ends.

    By ANH, Vader will have had twenty years to ponder his actions. I wonder what Vader felt in the Death Star throne room.

    NOTE: I won't even try correcting all my verb tense errors. :(
  17. Plankton4All Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2002
    This is a very interesting thread. Anakin's ultra human qualities are indeed at the heart of star wars. I believe that his journey to the Dark side has an element of what he truely believes to be just. I think that even Dooku's desire to eliminate the Sith is sincere. For Anakin, the main problem is, it was his fate to play both sides of the Force. Elements in his life that were out of his control were put into play(either by chance or the Emperor)that guided his destiny. I believe, in EP III what ever event that drives him completely to the Dark side and against OBI, he will initially be seeking justice or vengance. Just like when he massacred the Raider camp. It was an act of vengance driven by his anger but in his mind I think he believed it to be justified-despite his tearful admission to Padme.
  18. libwil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2002
    Could not agree more. I managed to see AOTC again and I now understand the theme of the movie. It tells me how a democracy can change into a dictatorship and how a good kid can go bad. The problem with Ani is his ability to let go, his need and greed for power and to control things instead of letting things take their natural course. He desperately becomes attached to Padme instead of accepting his responsibilities as a Jedi, I have a funky feeling that padmeand Anakin will not be on the same side in EPIII, i can assure you of that.
  19. Plankton4All Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2002
    libwil,
    Sounds like you and I are on the same page as far as Anakin's psychology goes. As far as Ani & Padme's relationship goes in III, I guess it really depends on how many years form II we start from. I thought that it was quite telling that the wedding was sqeezed into the end of II. I'm betting that III will take place about 5 years after clones. The the twins should be around 2 or 3 years old. I don't think that we are going to be drug through all of the pregnancy stuff. The story might possibly pick up with another attempt(Successful?) on Padme's life. That would do the trick to flip Anakin over to Palps control.
  20. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    I still think that Anakin should have left the Jedi Order living with Padme In Tatooine when Episode III starts but then again, what do I know?
  21. Plankton4All Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2002
    If Anakin left the order at the start of III wouldn't he be too far removed from sid to get his sith training?
  22. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    In my own version of the event which I speculated ages and ages ago, I had Anakin and Padme living on Tatooine, both of them having given up on the grand events surrounding them. Obi Wan then comes to Tatooine and asks Anakin to follow him "on a damned fool idealistic crusade" to get rid of Dooku and bring peace.

    Sith, as it happens,hits the fan soon after...
  23. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    A new thought: the start and end of Anakin's Dark Side journey is a child cradling a dying parent. In ROTJ, Anakin realizes the truth of what Shmi meant when she said "now I am complete." Seeing her son again, as an adult and apparently on his own good path, was her rescue, the rescue that mattered the most to her. Sadly, Anakin does not realize that just living himself in the good path that Shmi wanted was all he needed to do to rescue her.

    What might have been if Shmi had enough strength to say these lines that Anakin says to Luke:
    "Go, my son. Leave me."

    "No. You're coming with me. I'll not leave you here, I've got to save you."

    "You already have, Anakin."
  24. The Butler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 1999
    star 4
    Thanks for pointing that out. I never caught that before.

    Sometimes, I do wish it was Leia in the Death Star throne room. If Luke's similarity to Anakin threw Vader off-balance, what would Leia's similarity to Padme do?

  25. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Falls,

    Beautifully put, as always. Too bad it took Anakin 20+ years to understand what his mother was saying with that, "Now I am complete." I got the feeling from that line that she had hung on thru all the misery the Tusken raiders put her thru so she could see her son once again.

    She died happy that he had become a Jedi. Sorry, I'm crying now. That whole scene is just so sad, it blows me away totally, especially knowing the future. At least Shmi was spared that cruel knowledge.

    Lady S.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.