Anakin's profoundly human frailty

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darthkarma, May 25, 2002.

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  1. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    Sometimey, that's one of the most impressive, literate posts I've ever
    seen on these boards.
  2. TheVioletBurns Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2002
    star 4
    What an oasis from some of the other threads here!

    Wonderful thoughts from everyone. I'm glad this was upped. I agree, Sometimey, that was a great commentary by you right there.
  3. Jar Jar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 1998
    star 4
    I disagree with you Sometimey and I know this is a mature enough topic with mature posters, so I will try my own take on it. Only Lucas really has the answer, but this is what I think.

    Anakin is being trained because of Qui Gon, not because of Obi Wan. Qui Gon discovered the boy, discovered both his talents and his potential for greatness. To Qui Gon, there is no question as whether or not he is the chosen one, he simply is and Qui Gon wants him trained irregardless of his age or instabilities. Obi Wan knows there is something wrong, the council knows something is wrong, and I think that even Qui Gon knows it, but his vision of the moment, his view of this boy being the "Holy Grail" if you will, blinds him to fact. When he dies, he uses the last of his energy to tell Obi Wan to train him and that it must be done.

    What choice did Obi Wan have? He knew it wasn't right, but could he disobey his master's final wish? Many questions probably plauged the young Jedi after that moment.

    What did he see that no one else could? Was he right and everyone else wrong? In the end, he decided he could not betray his former master or his vision and I fully believe that if Yoda had insisted the boy not be trained that Obi Wan would have left the order over it. What choice was there then? Yoda agreed and I think this showed even then that the Dark Side was already clouding the eyes of the Jedi Master. He too was unsure about his previous decision on the boy, and faced with losing another Jedi he concurred.

    Enter the stage to ten years later. Obi Wan is training Anakin and doing a good job of it considering that Yoda most likely had no hand in it due to his age. Obi Wan is a perfect mentor in every way that I can see. He is a model Jedi and a perfect example to him. He is strong with the force and he keeps the powerhouse that is Anakin in line. His guidance and expertise to his unusual Padawan embody all of the elements of any great teacher and he is very forgiving of his learner's shortcomings. He does a good job of keep the exceptional boy in his place, hoping that Anakin will see he is still not ready for his trials, all the while being gentle and not as forceful as Qui Gon appeared to be at times.

    I often speculated that in Obi Wan we would see a Jedi unprepared to accept a student, but instead we see that he is more than capable of the challenge. At this stage in the game, Anakin's abilities in the force are out-matching his own, but all-in-all, Anakin could ask for no better teacher then he has in Kenobi. Anakin even acknowledges Kenobi as a the closest thing he has to a father, and for a teacher there can be no greater compliment.

    The problem as I see it is that while Obi Wan is trying to conquer the boy's ambitions and train him, there is a complication in the form of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine. Palpatine is the antithesis of Kenobi, reinforcing the boy's beliefs that he is ready to be a Jedi when in fact he is not. Where Obi Wan is guiding him to humility, Palpatine strokes his ego. Where Kenobi encourages him to learn Palpatine tells him he doesn't need guidance any longer. Where Kenobi tells him to focus on the force, Palpatine tells him to trust his feelings.

    These are mixed signals and Anakin in his arrogance and impatience has sided with the Chancellor's words over that of his Master. To me it is not a matter of incompatibility between master and apprentice, but corruption of the student by an outside force. The prodigal son is rebelling against his father, wanting his inheritance before it is time and he, just like the prodigal son, is about to make a big mistake.

    And just like the prodigal son, he comes home.
  4. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4
    Jar Jar, that's one of the most impressive, literate posts I've ever seen on these boards.

    Like Sometimey, you make intelligent arguments for your point of view and I enjoyed reading it. You've both given me a lot to ponder...and that's cool :)
  5. TGL Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    When it is all said and done, the central theme of the Star Wars saga will be that of choice. How the choices people make ultimately determine who they are.

    This is an interesting thread, because it echoes a similar discussion I had with friends immediately following my first AOTC viewing. What was clear to all of us after watching the film was that Lucas intentionally set up the Tatooine "homestead" sequence to draw parallels between the choices Anakin and Luke would ultimately make, and how those choices affected the course of their lives.

    If you'll notice, Lucas even throws in a subtle homage to the "twin suns" scene in Episode IV, just before nightfall, when Anakin sets off to find his mother. Instead of showing us the bright suns again, Lucas instead shows us the dark shadows of Anakin and Padme on the homestead wall. That was an interesting contrast, I thought, and it was definitely an intentional foreshadowing of the different paths father and son would take.

    Despite what psychologists may think, our actions and choices, not our circumstances, determine who we are as people. I have seen Anakin described in this thread as being hotheaded, impuslive, impatient, conflicted, and a host of other things. Why do we have that perception of him? Because that is the way he acts. That is how he conducts himself. Remember when you were at the supermarket as a child, and your mother told you to "straighten up and quit acting like a brat?" She was asking you to conduct yourself in a different manner, regardless of what your motivations were at that time. She didn't simply accept that you were given to brattiness, and were therefore entitled to act out your motivations to your satisfaction. She was asking you to choose not to act on those motivations for your own good.

    And there's the distinction. Luke and Anakin may have shared many of the same emotions and motivations. But Anakin chose to act on those motivations in a negative, self-destructive manner. He sets off to find his mother (over the objections of his stepfather, no less), and when he finds her dead, he slaughters an entire village. Luke, after returning to the homestead over Obi-Wan's objections, finds his ownadoptive family dead. Undoubtedly consumed with sadness and rage, he could very well have chosen to live out his life among the rabble of Mos Eisley, kidnapping and brutally killing a stormtrooper or two until the Empire would eventually catch up with him. Instead, he takes the reasoned approach and announces to Obi-Wan that he'd like to "learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi like his father." While Anakin's justice was swift and severe, Luke knows that his justice may never come, so he resigns himself to doing what he can.

    The bottom line is that Luke chooses to be a hero, and Anakin chooses to be a villain. Strip away many of the superficial details, and that is the essence of what the Star Wars saga truly is.

  6. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin's the Dark Side inside all of us.

    As a kid, I loved and idolized Luke. He was all that was good and pure, the ultimate hero who saves the galaxy and his father. As a child, I never noticed his whining, I could relate! I wonder if I was a kid today, how would I view Anakin? I don't know. As an adult though, I love his character. I love his complexities, because I see a lot of myself in him from when I was growing up. I can relate to his dreams as a child, achieving adulthood, then finding out the dream isn't exactly as he had visualized it as a kid. Being an adult w/ responsibilities sucks.

    The Dark Side is an addictive drug to Anakin. It is a quick instantaneous fix for his problems. It's seductive, the more he's tasted power, anger, possession, and hate, the more it's going to consume him. I think that's what is most disturbing about Anakin's actions more than anything else. We recognize the power of the drug he's addicted to, but he does not. Unfortunately, it takes him getting completely consumed by hate, before he can eventually realize the errors of his ways and travel the road to redemption.

    Unfortunately for Anakin, apparently the only one who does recognize his thirst for power is Palpatine. Our Jedi friends are too worried about the mystery of the Sith to bother with trying to correct the errant ways of the Chosen One. Mace lazily suggests they just sit back and hope Anakin follows his path correctly. Obi-Wan realizes he's getting in way over his head w/ his Padawan, but there is no one there to assist him with his growing concerns.

    Anakin grew up knowing the unconditional love of his mother. Shmi raised him wonderfully, she encouraged and fostered him to explore his god-given talents, and taught him to be unselfish. If Anakin had been discovered as a youngling, and not ever experienced unconditional love, do you think he would have at least started with such a pure heart? I don't know, something tells me no. Shmi was what was best in Anakin. She gave him her heart. When she died, the innocence and heart in Anakin seemed to die, and the pain of losing her became unbearable. You compare that w/ Palpy's insincere comment to Padme "loosing you would be unbearable" and you realize how truly dreadful it is that our young hero falls, because we recognize the complete sincerity of his love for his mother.

    Anakin's biggest problem is fear. He fears displeasing Obi-Wan, he fears never being good enough to be a Jedi, he's afraid to be left alone on his first mission, he's afraid he'll be scarred for life by Padme's kiss and promise of love, and he's afraid of his own actions against the Tuskins. As we roll into the OT, you can sense the fear that he holds for his Master "I must obey my Master."

    It isn't until Anakin finally realizes the ultimate of all fears, not being able to save his son, that Anakin can conquer his greatest internal enemy and finally kill the Emperor. Isn't it interesting that the one thing Yoda worried most about Anakin "I sense much fear in you" is the one thing that ultimately saves him?
  7. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    TGL,

    Some would say Anakin's correct destiny was exactly as we see it played out, bad decisions and all. That it was essential for him to follow the path he did, because it was his course as "The Chosen One," to bring balance to the force. Order==>Chaos==>Order.

    The real issue is, why it took him so long. Had he "chosen" as you say, to kill Palpatine several years earlier, it would've avoided alot of suffering on his part and on the parts of the people whose lives he destroyed while in the service of the Emperor.

    Still the end result is, he does bring balance to the force and this is only possible if all that remains of the jedi is his son Luke. At least from all appearances, this appears to be the case. It takes literally, the combined force powers of all the dead jedi Luke encounters while they are still living, to purge the darkness out of Anakin, thereby destroying the Emperor and therefore the Sith.

    Because of the duality of Luke and Anakin's lives, I prefer to think of Luke as representative of the redeemed Anakin. As if Anakin is born again in the womb of his own wife and he chooses right the next time around. In fact, I consider the entire story to be Anakin's redemption story.
  8. Drew_Workin_It Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 1
    Anakin's story is just so tragic. The entire Skywalker family for that matter is one big tragedy. It's not until the final scene of ROTJ that we can truly feel happy for them. And even then, it is a bit melancholy because the family never gets to be together as a whole. Anakin having only truly seen his son just before his death while the fate of Padme is still as yet unknown. Watching AOTC again, one can't help but feel a twinge of sadness.
  9. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Drew_Workin_It

    Stop it, you're bringing tears to my eyes!!!
  10. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    There is a little Anakin in everyone. We have all faced tempation at one time or another to take the quicker easier way out. To think of ourselves of our own needs, to lash out. These are all very human failings. Granted most of us never take it to the extreme that Anakin does, but the thing about a myth based fantasy is that it uses extremes to drive home a very difficult point.

    Anakin has problems letting go, and he also has some serious issues in regaards to coping with his own weaknesses. He is very attached to his mother, and when she died his anger at the Tuskens, combined with his anger at himself for being unable to save him, errupted into a fit of rage. Instead of controling himself and using his emotions as a tool or a guide, the way a Jedi knight should. He became a slave to his emotions. They were in control of him. It is not uncommon for people in extreme circumstance to be come so enraged they are litterally blind and out of control under after the storm. Then he realized what he had done, and he fell apart. He was scared to death at the realization of what he was capable of.

    He knows this is not acceptable, he knows this is not how a Jedi should act.

    Obi-Wan originally sensed that there was danger with Anakin, even at that early age. But after he made a promise to a diying Qui-Gon he felt he had an obligation. Also I get the feeling that Yoda (and possibley Mace) know more than they are letting on. They are seem more resigned that Anakin is something they have to face, rather than accepting him as one of thier own. Like they know something is comming, and must be.

    Like the Rebuplic they are serving , the Jedi order is also starting to decay from within. They are becomming to sure of thier abilites, and arrogant and over confident. They have forgotten what there purpose was. They are so wrapped up in themselves and the happenings around them, especially with the Sith returning and later with Dooku and the clones, that Obi-Wans concerns with Anakin are not treated as seriously as they should be.

    Obi Wan is trying to do the right thing, but the methods that would work wiht most Padawans, the methods that worked with Obi himself, are't going to work with Anakin. Anakin has issues, that someone raised as a Jedi, with no outside familiar attachments just cant' understand. Obi WAn has grown quite fond of Anakin, and it is quite obvious there is a bond between the two, but it is not going to be enough.

    Obi Wan is rightly concerned about Anakin, and like a Father, he really does have his best interests at heart. He is trying, but he also realizes that he may be getting in over his head. The council instead of listening to him, are basically also acting like Anakin was a normal Jedi, which he isn't .

    Anakin is resenting what he see's as Obi-WAns holding him back. He is at that age where he is no longer a kid, but he isn't quite a full adult either. He knows how powerful he is, but doesn't understand why Obi-Wans is concerned for him. He is arrogant, but is also very afraid. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred adn well we all know the drill. He looks up to Obi-Wan, who for many purposes practically raised him. So while part of him looks up to him, another part is starting to resent him, and what he see's as being held back.

    Add in to this mixture, one Meglomanical Sith Lord/ politician with eyes bent on Galatic domination. He saw the full power Anakin and how better manipulate the boy, then to tell him exactly what he wants to hear, instead of what he needs to hear. Like any human Anakin is much more inclinded to listen to someone who is feeding his ego, instead of someone who may actually tell him how he can better himself.

    After his mother died, the only person who he had to give him, what one could consider any true form of unconditional love is his wife. Once she is removed from the equation, the stage for his total fall will be set. He emotions took over when he lost his mother, and when he looses, or thinks he has lost Padme, he will likewise be blinded to reason a
  11. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Hi,
    Thank you Darthkarma for this thread and for giving me the opportunity to tell what I think on the subject. It is a very interesting thread.

    Anakin seems to me the ONLY REAL "HUMAN BEING" in the movie, with his strengths and weaknesses:

    He is the only LIVING character. OB1 is too perfect. Padme is too much devoted to the Republic. Master Yoda is only wisdom and Mace Windu pure intelligence. They only have the "white side" in them and are confident in themselves. Whereas Anakin "will bring balance to the force" because he is the only "balanced" character: half evil, half good, depending on what happens to him and what he feels. He is very damaged and broken (born a slave, having to leave his mother behind..who remains a slave). Vulnerable.

    He feels the force in him, so strong, and doesn't know how to cope with that. He has such a passion for living (remember the Force is Life and there is so much Force in him). Full of energy, turmoil, intensity, courage. Physically almost invulnerable. Like a storm.

    He is the only one to have FEELINGS and passion. All the others have been brought not to have any, only respect for their job. It seems to me that the Republic, strange enough, is almost a dictatorship in that way ("big brother is watching you").
    He doesn't abide by the rules. He says (it is awful) "not being able to be with the people that I love", then just after exactly the opposite "attachment is forbidden". But we know how much he is attached to his mother and Padme. Fear of loosing them leads to the dark side as Yoda tells us.
    We can easily imagine that he won't be "a half Darth Vader": he will become as evil as he was good. His emotions are too strong and overwhelming. I think only something happening to Padme (as such was the case with his mother) can turn him into the dark side: a great despair or jealousy. His lack of control will paradoxically cost him his humanity / his emotions make him human. We can project ourselves in his fears and sorrows.

    I also think he is the only honest character, totally spontanuous and NOT calculating. All of the others are. Even Padme when she refuses to start a relationship with him. They all are rational. He isn't (as he tells Padme in Naboo by the way).
    He says "B1 is holding me back" In fact, I thinkall the other characters are holding themselves back and first of all OB1 himself. It is the way to keep control over the force. On the contrary, Anakin IS the force, especially when he uses it to kill the tuskens. He becomes ONE with the universe and all the Force in it. He doesn't keep any distance, but unites, merges, with the Force, like a newborn baby, who doesn't know that his mother is another person. I think it is because he invades the Force at that moment, full of anger and rage (but not calculating to use it against the tuskens), because he is literally out of himself (very human), that Qui Gon says "non, Anakin, no". It is the dark way of using the Force, Ithink, but he doesn't realize it.
    He doesn't accept limits, rigidity. He wants to go forward, experience everything like young adults. He needs freedom as we all do.

    His inner struggle bw good and evil (this dark side his emotions prevent him from controling) and this opposition/complementarity bw vulnerability, liveliness, passion, pureness, romanticism on the one hand, and strength, iron will, determination, rebellion etc. on the other hand, make him human.

    Is there anyone here seeing it that way ?

    Please be kind. This is my first mail ever on a subject debated on the net. I am writing from France. English is not my mother tongue. Forgive my mistakes.
  12. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    anakinforever

    Fabulous post- very insightful. I like your descriptions of Anakin being the Force and being the only truthful person in the film because he obeys his emotions. Interesting idea to digest....

    BTW you did a great job w/ your writing!
  13. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    He doesn't keep any distance, but unites, merges, with the Force, like a newborn baby, who doesn't know that his mother is another person. I think it is because he invades the Force at that moment, full of anger and rage (but not calculating to use it against the tuskens), because he is literally out of himself (very human), that Qui Gon says "non, Anakin, no". It is the dark way of using the Force, I think, but he doesn't realize it.
    He doesn't accept limits, rigidity. He wants to go forward, experience everything like young adults. He needs freedom as we all do.


    Wow!! I 've been thinking something along those lines, but you did a super job of putting it into words. That is very much how I see it. :D Even the part about the return of QGJ, and maybe possibly the blue ghostie phenomenon. I'm in awe
  14. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    <<<He doesn't keep any distance, but unites, merges, with the Force, like a newborn baby, who doesn't know that his mother is another person. I think it is because he invades the Force at that moment, full of anger and rage (but not calculating to use it against the tuskens), because he is literally out of himself (very human), that Qui Gon says "non, Anakin, no". It is the dark way of using the Force, I think, but he doesn't realize it. >>>

    Excuse me I'm about to ramble a bit here...

    It is rather interesting because the Jedi seem to view the Force academically, not living in it. The only one who really mentions this a way of experiencing the Force was Qui-Gon. Yoda and Mace both repeatingly state that they need to meditate about the Dark Side, but how can they fully understand it if they do not experience it themselves? It is the fear and inablility of the Jedi to venture forth and "dabble" into the Dark Side that allows the Siths presense to grow stronger.

    It's fascinating to rewatch ESB after watching the PT so far. Fear is a major factor in Anakins fall. When Luke ignites his saber and challenges Vader, after a few parries and thrusts, Vader says (something like) "Good, you have learned to conquer your fear." Then when Luke managed to escape the carbonite chamber Vader says "Impressive, most impressive." You can almost hear Anakin's sense of wonder. That Luke can face this great demon of darkness, yet have a pure heart and act as the perfect Jedi is unsettling to Vader.

    I always think it's interesting that Vader/Anakin never suspects that Yoda actually lived to train Luke, that he personalizes Luke's training into believing that his former Master trained him exclusively. Seeing Luke is seeing the vision of what he could have become, had he not succumbed to the Dark Side.

    Although Anakin may live "in the moment" with the Force, he is never truly at peace until he learns to let go of his stranglehold of the Force, to distance himself from the sheer power it holds over him. It is when he does this, that he can finally save his son and kill his Master.
  15. SoloStrider Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    Of all of the Jedi presented in the films, Qui-Gon's character seems to best act out the Jedi dictum to act toward others with compassion and unconditional love. For me, it's difficult to imagine any PT storyline that would arrive at the OT without QG's [early] removal as Anakin's Master. I can't but believe that a ten-year apprenticeship to one that lives the correct example would make the difference between Anakin's knowing what what he's supposed to and acting as he's supposed to. Especially given the sensitivity of Anakin's character as presented in TPM. For all of his skills, OB1's character doesn't come close to replacing this aspect of QG's.

    QG had to die for there to be Star Wars as we know it. What a shame.
  16. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    <<<Qui-Gon's character seems to best act out the Jedi dictum to act toward others with compassion and unconditional love. >>>

    I feel the muse upon me.....

    Well this may be true, but the thing is Qui-Gon was actually always out of step w/ the Jedi. He was the rebel in the group. Per Yoda's words to Obi-Wan (or something like)"Qui-Gons rebellion you do not need."

    Qui-Gon never became a member of the Council because he didn't study the Force the same way as the rest of the Jedi. He "lived the moment" of the Force, and saw it as a living breathing thing. It's interesting because that is how Obi-Wan describes to it Luke later, but that doesn't appear to be how he views it in the PT.

    It's obvious that EP 3 is going to involve a lot of changing the way the Force is viewed for Yoda and Obi-Wan. Hearing Qui-Gon's voice shook Yoda to the core, he didn't understand where it came from. As if Anakins actions ripped through the Force and brought his original Master's spirit back into the Force.

    I wonder if subconsciously Anakin ripped Qui-Gon back from the dead? Or when Anakin lunges into the Darkside full of rage, can someone from the light slip into the Force to Balance out the Evil???

    Think about it, in ANH, Vader was in full rage swing ready to slice down Obi-Wan, and Obi-Wan at that instant disappeared and became one with the Force. Did Vader somehow open a portal into the Force that allowed Obi-Wan to become a part of it? That Vader's rage, made Obi-Wan as powerful as Vaders hate?

    Yoda being the most powerful of Jedis, if he understands this, would easily be able to find a place to slip into the Force himself at the time of his passing. The Emperor's Sith presence would be strong enough to create that rift. And even Anakin himself, because he had opened that portal on his own, would be able to become one with the Force after death. But by his crossing over to the light, the portal, in theory should be closed.

    Any thoughts???
  17. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Thank you very much Iamzam and Padmeleiajaina for your support.
    I just feel better knowing that I am not the only one to think that way.

    To go on with what you said Padmeleiajaina, I think what saves Luke is that he is not aware of and always surprised with his powers, because he has grown in a galaxy where "this old religion" doesn't exist anymore. I also think there is much less Force in him than Anakin, less liveliness. And it is then less complex for him to cope with the Force. He is part of the plot because he will be a DETONATOR for the Chosen one.
    He is good for he has never had to experience what Anakin went through. Confronted to his fears (again, the same word) in the grotto in ESB, he realizes that there is also a potential dark side in him when he fights against Vador and discovers it is himself.
  18. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Padmeleiajaina,
    I like the way you say "Qui Gon lived the moment of the Force", which is a bit like the idea of merging into the Force. Maybe Qui Gon experienced the dark side of the force, without people knowing it (about 20 jedi are said to have looked for the "siths'archives"). But somehow he managed not to fall into it.
    About the disappearing of the Jedi, there is an interesting thread called that way, if I remember it correctly.
  19. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Padmeleiajaina,
    The right thread is AOTC reveals why jedi desappear.
  20. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    anakinforever, I posted my thoughts on the Force in Ep 3 board as well. The ideas of the Force may not belong to Anakin's Human frailty, but I believe they relate to understanding him.

    Anakin is half human, half Force. You can't have one side of him analyzed w/o exploring the other.
  21. SoloStrider Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    PLJ,

    Well this may be true, but the thing is Qui-Gon was actually always out of step w/ the Jedi. He was the rebel in the group. Per Yoda's words to Obi-Wan (or something like)"Qui-Gons rebellion you do not need."

    "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not!"

    QG is portrayed as somewhat of a maverick from the perspective of the JC. When he discusses this with OB1, I believe he says "~I will do as I must.", not "~I will do as I will." If I remember right, this scene is immediately followed by his lecture to Anakin on how the midichlorians convey the will of the force to those who will clear their minds and listen. Maybe a "Living Force" Master has a special affinity to the midi-c's, which enables him to hear more clearly (or think he does).

    Any thoughts???

    A couple. It's interesting to me that the Jedi Master that is singled out as a Master of the Living Force seems to be the first one to maintain some coherent consciousness on the spiritual side (?) after his death. Rather ironic.

    Second random neural firing: as I understand it, no Jedi in Ep I or II is really clear on what "bringing balance to the force" is. What if the balance actually has nothing to do at all with Dark Side vs. Light Side, but rather physical life side vs. spiritual side? It'd be a neat plot twist if it turns out all the characters are interpreting it the wrong way.

    OK, my head hurts now.
  22. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    SoloStrider-

    Thanks for the direct Yoda quote. I admit, I can't quote TPM line by line like I can for the OT and soon AOTC. :)

    Qui-Gon and his maverick attitude is definitly a key. I do think your idea of physical world= spriitual world has merit. In the AOTC novel Yoda is freaked out by hearing Qui-Gon because the Jedi currently believe once you are dead you are dead.

    Obviously there is more to the Force than anyone has figured out. But Anakin's being the Chosen One and his abilities will figure into the equation.

    <<OK, my head hurts now.>> yeah explains why Mace always looks so damned confused. The Force is puzzling.
  23. SoloStrider Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2002
    OK, more thoughts. Let's see if this picture turns out when posted.

    [rant]Nope, leading spaces aren't supported. OK, let's try leading dots. Why can't this be WYSIWYG? Who made this application, Microsoft?[/rant]

    ......................Light Side
    .........................../\
    ...........................|
    ...........................|
    Spiritual Side <---------> Physical Life Side
    ...........................|
    ...........................|
    ...........................\/
    .......................Dark Side

    Now let's see what we can stick into the four quadrants of our picture.

    Upper right (Light Side, Living): Jedi
    Lower right (Dark Side, Living): Sith
    Upper left (Light Side, Spirit): QG, then OB1, Yoda, and Anakin
    Lower left (Dark Side, Spirit): <<Little neuron at the back of the brain jumping up and down, squeaking "Hey, over here!">> What about the cave on Dagobah in Ep V? It's not clear to me that the manifestation of Vader/Luke that Luke fought in the cave was ever physical. A coherent spiritual entity of the Dark Side should be able to project a vision a living (probably Force-attuned) person could see, just as the spirit-side ex-Jedi project a voice/vision of themselves.

    So the picture seems to be complete, if way off topic. Oh well, I did mention Anakin.

  24. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Solostrider, I doubt my good friend DarthKarma will mind our little spiritual sidetracking here....right DK?

    Give me a few minutes, I need to try and find something....

    Holy cow- try reading this and not getting goosebumps if you think of SoloStriders map and my description of the Force. Think of the Temple as being that transition point where the Jedis can enter the Force and keep in mind "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine"..

    This is from Joseph Cambells The Hero with a Thousand Faces:

    <<Wherever a hero has been born, has been wrought, or has passed back into the void, the place is marked and sanctified. A temple is erected there to signify and inspire the miracle of perfect centeredness; for this is the place of the break through into abundance. SOMEONE AT THIS POINT DISCOVERED ETERNITY. The site can serve, therefore, as a support for the fruitful meditation. Such temples are designed, as a rule, to simulate the four directions of the world horizon, the shrine or altar at the center being symbolical of the Inexhaustible Point.

    The one who enters the temple compound and proceeds to the sanctuary is imitating the deed of the original hero. His aim is to rehearse the universal pattern as a means of evoking within himself the recollection of the life-centering, life-renewing form.>>


    <<Wherever a hero has been born, has been wrought, or has passed back into the void, the place is marked and sanctified. >>

    Obviously Anakin is the one who opened that portal. His birth itself was created, and prophecied by the Force. Anakin himself seemed to rip open the fabric of the Force when he came out swinging on Tatooine full of anger against the Tuskins, he passed into the void, if you will, and in return he brought back Qui-Gon.

    <<<A temple is erected there to signify and inspire the miracle of perfect centeredness; for this is the place of the break through into abundance. SOMEONE AT THIS POINT DISCOVERED ETERNITY. >>

    It is Anakin's plunge into darkness that awakens the spirit of Qui-Gon, who in return is heard by Yoda. Yoda will be the one to discover the truth about the Force, which is illustrated at the end of the paragraph.

    The 2nd paragraph nearly made my jaw drop. Think about it. Obi-Wan gives the ultimate last lesson he can to his Padawan. He and Yoda discovered the means for Anakin to bring Balance to the Force, by being able to transcend into the Force through a transition point. Obi-Wan enters that portal in front of his old student to show him the correct path to take. Vader is left puzzled and confused over Obi-Wan's disappearance, but apparently after he kills the Emperor in ROTJ, he figures out how to transcend to that plane of Spiritual bliss.
  25. Undomiel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2002
    star 4
    PLJ,

    Actually the vergence in the force was felt by Qui-Gonn before AotC or the upcoming events of Episode III. Perhaps this vergence is what you refer to?
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