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Anakin's profoundly human frailty

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darthkarma, May 25, 2002.

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  1. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 23, 2002

    Yeah if we could get a definite definition on what the hell a "Vergence" in the Force is, that would help.

    All I know is 2 things. Qui-Gon's maverick ways of thinking and his recognizing Anakin and Anakin's ability is crucial to understanding the Force. And Anakin's dip into Darkness is the other key point. That in fact should trigger the remaining Jedi to rethink things and re-examine the Force.
  2. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 17, 2002
    Perhaps the answer is in the definition of verge.
  3. SoloStrider

    SoloStrider Jedi Youngling

    May 15, 2002

    If your interpretation is correct, then it seems that someone from the Dark Side discovered eternity in the cave at Dagobah, eh?
  4. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 23, 2002
    I'm thinking definition 2, which pretty much covers what we were thinking that it is some kind of a boarder point between the realms:

    Main Entry: 1verge
    Pronunciation: 'v&rj
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin virga rod, stripe
    Date: 15th century
    1 a (1) : a rod or staff carried as an emblem of authority or symbol of office (2) obsolete : a stick or wand held by a person being admitted to tenancy while he swears fealty b : the spindle of a watch balance; especially : a spindle with pallets in an old vertical escapement c : the male intromittent organ of any of various invertebrates
    2 a : something that borders, limits, or bounds: as (1) : an outer margin of an object or structural part (2) : the edge of roof covering (as tiling) projecting over the gable of a roof (3) British : a paved or planted strip of land at the edge of a road : SHOULDER b : BRINK, THRESHOLD <a country on the verge of destruction -- Archibald MacLeish>
  5. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 23, 2002
    <<If your interpretation is correct, then it seems that someone from the Dark Side discovered eternity in the cave at Dagobah, eh? >>

    Well that's a BIG IF there...I do not claim to know what goes on in the mind of God Lucas, I just try to interpret...

    But yes I'm sure the riddle of the cave will be discovered in EP 3 as well. If it was a great portal to the Dark Side, it would make sense that Yoda, the greatest of all Jedi would be there to mask and counterbalance it's effects.
  6. SoloStrider

    SoloStrider Jedi Youngling

    May 15, 2002
    Let's go back to the Force map for a minute. I like the concept as an aid to thought. Balance implies a leveling, or equality. If bringing balance to the Force is taken literally, and applied to the Dark Side / Light Side perspective, it seems that it implies a result of something like an equilibrium, or equality between them. If I'm a JC member, and I think the Light Side has the Dark Side all but extinguished (hundreds of Jedi, at most 2 Sith), then a literal balancing is something that should seen by them with extreme trepidation. Did you ever get this sense in the films? I sure didn't. Otherwise, we'd have seen something like this:
    QG: "I think I found the Chosen One."
    JC (collectively): "Well thanks a lot for fixin' to get most all of us killed here, QG."

    By Ep IV, of course, we do have a literal balance in the Living half of the Force map. Two Sith (assuming they hold to doctrine in their victory), Palpy and DV. Two Jedi, Yoda and OB1. Maybe we even have balance in the Spirit half of the map - the cave on the Dark Side, and QG on the Light.

    Now the novelization implies that there were no Light spirits prior to QG. Dark side - who knows? How long has the cave on Dagobah been around before we see it in Ep V?

    What's the Force map population look like at the end of Ep VI? 1 Jedi, at least 3 Light spirits, probably 1 Dark Spirit (one of the ROTJ novelizations, Kahn's or Daley's, can't remember which, mentioned that Luke acknowledges the presence of the cave when he makes his final visit to Yoda), and supposedly no Sith. If that's balance, then that must be one really potent Dark Spirit in the cave.

    No matter how I look at it, whether its Light Side/Dark Side or Living Side/Spirit Side, balance looks like a bad deal for the Jedi as of Ep I.
  7. Undomiel

    Undomiel Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 17, 2002

    When Ben says, "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine," he is basically cluing us in that a spirit jedi is ultimately more powerful than a living jedi. The accumulative force powers of all the dead jedi who were attached to Luke, make it possible for Luke to exercise Vader's dark side, thereby destroying Palpatine and the Sith. I'm assuming the only way this was possible was for only Luke to be remaining at the end. It took that many of them to destroy two Sith - master and apprentice. Balance of the force means to restore the control of the force, in its entirety, to the light side. As long as Sith exist, the force is unbalanced. That's my take on it.
  8. Sometimey

    Sometimey Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jun 1, 2002
    Solostrider, that's an interesting point. It is one I have wondered about ever since TPM. The force has been unbalanced for centuries because the Jedi have had all the use of it. I wondered what "balance to the force" would mean to the Jedi.

    Perhaps as Undomiel suggests, balance to the force really means the light side.

    After I saw AOTC, I wondered if perhaps the force became unbalanced when the Jedi powers started to diminish. Sidious is blocking their ability to use the force in some ways and is taking more and more of it for the dark side. By killing Sidious, Anakin will bring balance to the force.

    Come to think of it, the decline in numbers of the Sith does not have to mean the force is unbalanced in favor of the light side. If someone wants to use the dark side force there was never anything to prevent that. The Jedi had a numbers advantage, but did they really have a force advantage?

    The new master of the Sith has a force advantage because they can't use it the way they could before.
  9. anakinforever

    anakinforever Jedi Youngling

    Jun 27, 2002
    Extremely interesting thread indeed.

    May I suggest something else that could also be an interpretation ? of the balance thing and of human frailty.

    How come that Yoda can feel the disturbance in the Force, and not Windu (who asks him "what's wrong ?")? Is it because Yoda is aimed at meditating a lot ? or is it because he may have experienced also the dark side ? He is very old and some of his apprentices may have fallen into the dark side (Dooku first of all). So maybe, assuming that he has "tried it"(read a lot from the archives etc), and managed to come back from it, rescue himself from it (as I would also see Qui Gon do that), then, whoever had the opportunity to have an experience with the dark side while being strong enough to fight against himself (remember the episode of the Dagobah cave !), has in fact the knowledge of what the BALANCED living force is (with good and evil). This is sort of the UNIFYING force:having unified the force in one's self.
    Then, Anakin invades the Force, with no compassion (towards the tuskens), full of hate and no-distance at all. Compassion (the light side) is taking care of others and not one's self. Anakin takes power over the Force.
    The dark side is stronger than the light side because in using it, you have no limits, no control: you don't even remember others exist (ie no compassion) and you use the force, the entire living force, for your own purpose (in the case of Anakin, he is so out of himself that he doesn't do it I believe, on purpose but instinctively).
    So the force, through this invasion, intrusion of the dark side, is unbalanced. Anakin will bring back balance to the force, by having compassion towards Luke and saving him in ROTJ, leting him live in ESB. Remember also that compassion is feared in Luke by the Emperor (as a way of saving Anakin ?) by the way.

    Last point : why have the Jedi become less-powered according to Yoda speaking to Windu ? Because they fear to experience the UNIFYING Force, the Force as a whole with the dark side inside of themselves. They are afraid of the dark side and of this "initiation path", of loosing themselves in there. But how can you fight an ennemy that you WON'T know ? How can you find his weaknesses ? Only by "jumping into it" and tackling the problem. No wonder that the "dark side clouds everything".
    In the cave, Luke is in front of HIMSELF (he sees his own face in Vader) and his dark side, and he manages to kill it, which means he won't fall in it.
    What do you think about this theory ?
  10. Tellesto

    Tellesto Jedi Knight star 5

    Dec 7, 1999
    When Ben says, "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine," he is basically cluing us in that a spirit jedi is ultimately more powerful than a living jedi. The accumulative force powers of all the dead jedi who were attached to Luke, make it possible for Luke to exercise Vader's dark side, thereby destroying Palpatine and the Sith. I'm assuming the only way this was possible was for only Luke to be remaining at the end. It took that many of them to destroy two Sith - master and apprentice. Balance of the force means to restore the control of the force, in its entirety, to the light side. As long as Sith exist, the force is unbalanced. That's my take on it.

    I tend to agree with Undomiel on this one. The balance of the Force, although misleading for many, really is the return of power to the light side as opposed to the Dark Side. In the Prequel Trilogy we see an underlying theme of unwholesomeness developing among the Republic, the Jedi, and the planetary governments involved with them. The Trade Federation, commerce guilds, Count Dooku and Anakin Skywalker, are all falling prey to the Dark Side and its influences upon the galaxy. Balance from good is slowly descending into evil, it's the beginning of the end for the light side and the control it exerts on the Force. Now flip over to the Original Trilogy and you can see the stark contrast between the little ability given to good, and the tremendous power wielded by evil. The Empire sits at the feet of a practitioner of the Dark Side of the Force and a half-human/half-machine slaughters the remnants of good and justice in the galaxy all in the name of this dictator. Jedi are all but extinct, found in numbers of one (or not at all) and revealed to be but a shadow of their former glory. Bringing Balance to the Force equates to restoring peace and order and abolishing the Darkness that resides in control over the land, and over society.

    To comment on human frailty, I've often found that Lucas is a fond contributor to the belief that a human being is imperfect and drawn to making bad choices. In an afterthought I almost shared in the "Spielberg and AOTC" thread, George Lucas exhibits that a humanoid ultimately is flawed and frail in the choices they make, and this effects the outcome of their victory. Even in Return of the Jedi, the final Episode of the Star Wars saga, the movie in which all of the wrongs are redeemed, we still feel a hint of detachment or unease at the hero's victory. The galaxy is saved, yes, but at what price? Anakin is dead, the old Republic nothing but a carcass that the Empire emerged from, and Luke is the last remaining Jedi in the galaxy.

    Human frailty leads us to the choices we make in life, it is what leads Anakin to the choices he makes in the movies. Like us, he pays the price for his frailty and the effects of his emotions and choices are the resulting impact we find present throughout the Original Trilogy. The Empire is the result of his arrogance, Luke and Leia the result of his love and the destruction of the Jedi the result of his pride.
  11. Polaris_Fett

    Polaris_Fett Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jun 15, 2002
    Wow, interesting thread! :) It's cool to see how the Force is percieved by different people. I mean, Jedi spend their whole lives meditating on the nature of the Force and still don't have all the answers, so it's a big question. ;) I guess the way I look at the balance thing is not so much an imbalance in the Force itself but how it gets *used*...Jedi use the Force in accordance with nature, since they are trained to connect with it in an unselfish and serene way, not imposing their own personalities on to it, while the Sith use of the Force is an abberation.The Force was never meant to be used in the dark ways the Sith use it, therefore it causes an imbalance. Wipe out the Sith, presumably the only ones who abuse the Force in this way, and balance is restored. The Sith may be able to bend the Force to their will, but they can't actually change the nature of it, so balance returns when the Sith stop distorting it.

    Well, it's a thought, anyway. :) Cool ideas, guys!

  12. Enigma_X

    Enigma_X Jedi Youngling star 2

    Apr 22, 2002
    "The Empire is the result of his arrogance, Luke and Leia the result of his love and the destruction of the Jedi the result of his pride."

    I'll agree with all of that except the first part. Palpatine is already Supreme Chancellor and armed with the special powers that will lead him to becoming Emperor, and Anakin hasn't done a dang thing for him on that front. The Emperor would have risen regardless, and he would have sought to destroy the Jedi regardless. If Anakin had not turned, Palpatine would have chosen another as apprentice and Anakin likely would have been killed in the Purge.

    As for the Force being balanced... Force-balance does not necessarily have anything to do with what we conceive as good and evil, or even what we define as balance. I think maybe part of it is that, with the death of the Emperor and the fall of the Empire, Force-sensitives (not just Jedi, mind you) can thrive again, after being persecuted and killed off by the Empire. The balance has to do with the existence of Force-sensitives, then, and little with what they choose to do with said power.
  13. Jovieve

    Jovieve Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 19, 2002
    Sorry if this double-posts.

    Interesting thread.

    It has verged OT into an overview of the Force that is something that every SW fan needs to read. Suffice to say, I have read the posts, enjoyed them and in trying to decide what to add, have decided to just say "Look at the pretty colors."

    As far as the original topic, most everyone has pretty much nailed Anakin's character and the course of the empire (Palpatine was inevitable, there was no stopping him. Anakin was a minor character in his rise to power). What I disagreed with is that the Jedi fell due to their arrogance and staid ways.

    I don't know why people think this.

    The Jedi fell due to the fact that Palpatine was trying his darndest to make them fail, turning allies against them and overwhelming them with events and assasinations. Qui-Gon brought Anakin to the Temple and presented him as a messianic figure and the Jedi originally refused him - BECAUSE HE WAS TOO OLD. Their 'staid' ways had worked for over 1000 years with only a few failures. I'd say that is a great record for any organization.

    The Jedi only 'failed' because the Order MADE AN EXCEPTION FOR ANAKIN. That is to say, the Order TRIED something new. They shouldn't have. Had the Council not been persuaded after the victory on Naboo (Anakin's victory at the droid control ship had no real effect on the overall goal. Queen Amidala already had the Viceroy captured. She would have just forced him to call off his droids), had Qui-Gon not emotionally blackmailed his Padawan Obi-Wan, Anakin would have likely been returned to Shmi and he would have grown up in Mos Espa to be a speeder repair guy and part time pod-racer, living happily ever after with his mother. Palpatine might have had a harder time destroying the Jedi, but it would have happened regardless.

    I argued in the Official Obi-Wan Thread in the AOTC board that perhaps Obi-Wan wasn't the best teacher for Anakin, but I have been persuaded now to see that maybe Obi-Wan was the ONLY one who could have trained Anakin. He was the boy's only tie to Qui-Gon and his past, despite Obi-Wan's by-the-bookness, he WAS his Master's Padawan. He alone could have made exceptions for Anakin's upbringing much easier than any other Jedi Knight.

    Who's to say the Temple didn't try to make Anakin a part of their family? Who's to say Anakin didn't reject any overtures of friendship because HE WASN'T LIKE THEM and he knew it? In AOTC he wears 'untraditional' Padawan clothing, he is argumentative with his Master, he disregards the rules and regulations and conduct of behavior for a Jedi apprentice, boy howdy he sure is trying to fit in, isn't he? He already thinks he's ahead of (better than) everyone else. Would you make friends with this guy? Would you even like this guy?

    Yes, Anakin can be a sweet kid, but because of his inner self-esteem problems, he puts on the arrogant mask and few try to look behind it. Obi-Wan can and does look behind that mask because he knows Anakin best. But as was said, Obi-Wan wasn't enough for Anakin. He needed his low self-image constantly bolstered and Obi-Wan's teachings and corrections must have seemed to Anakin to be 'overly critical'. Palpatine is silky smooth and soothes Anakin's ruffled feathers by telling him how great he is and how misunderstood he is.

    It seems to me the Jedi bent over backwards for Anakin, put a lot of faith and trust in him to do the right thing and he didn't have the maturity to realize it and like a typical teenager, felt only the strictness and not the love behind it. The Jedi would be bitterly disappointed by Anakin.
  14. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 23, 2002

    I agree with you for the most part. I do believe that a lot of Anakin's failures are due to self esteem issues. But more importantly is that for the first 10 years of his life, he experienced unconditional love from his mother.

    If we are lead to believe that Shmi is very much the Mary figure (oh good lord help me I just used an Ani-ism in my writing -very much)then we should know that she is likely the perfect woman with the perfect soul and heart. She raised her son by encouraging his abilities, his good behavior, and gave him unconditional praise and love.

    Anakin didn't realize that would be what he was giving up when he joined the Jedi Order. He would now be viewed as a student in a place where emotional attachments are forbidden and discouraged. Anakin's biggest problem is his capacity and need for love. Obi-Wan is the tough love father figure in his life, who he respects and resents at the same time. Anakin just doesn't understand the credo of the Jedi, because he entered the order too late in life.

    I think if Palpatine hadn't noticed Anakin, there is a very good chance Anakin could have become the perfect Jedi. But it is Palpy's meddling, stroking and insinuating, that has corrupted Anakin's way of thinking about himself. Had he not been there, Anakin would have latched onto Obi-Wan completely and done whatever Obi-Wan asked in order to please him. That comes from his starting out as a slave.

    Poor Anakin never finds a way to free himself from bondage during his life. The only time in his life that he was ever allowed to be just Anakin was when he was alone w/ Padme on Naboo. It is unfortunate that the one human thing, his love for Padme, that he grasped freely in his life and causes him the most happiness, will ultimately be the one thing that destroys him, and will seperate him from his humanity, nearly forever.
  15. Arriss

    Arriss Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 1, 2002
    Jedi Skysong - your name reminds me of Elfquest - hmmmm.

    I agree with your post - very good, very good indeed.
  16. Spitfires_Descent

    Spitfires_Descent Jedi Youngling star 1

    Apr 11, 2002
    Anakin is resenting what he see's as Obi-WAns holding him back. He is at that age where he is no longer a kid, but he isn't quite a full adult either. He knows how powerful he is, but doesn't understand why Obi-Wans is concerned for him. He is arrogant, but is also very afraid. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred adn well we all know the drill. He looks up to Obi-Wan, who for many purposes practically raised him. So while part of him looks up to him, another part is starting to resent him, and what he see's as being held back.

    Add in to this mixture, one Meglomanical Sith Lord/ politician with eyes bent on Galatic domination. He saw the full power Anakin and how better manipulate the boy, then to tell him exactly what he wants to hear, instead of what he needs to hear. Like any human Anakin is much more inclinded to listen to someone who is feeding his ego, instead of someone who may actually tell him how he can better himself.

    I also think that this ties into another interesting parallel we will see between Anakin and Luke, and their mentors.

    As we meet Anakin in AOTC, he is roughly around the same age that we first meet Luke. In the case of Anakin, he has Obi-wan as a father figure. In Luke's case, he has Owen Larrs as his father figure. Both are beginning to feel that they have outgrown their mentor/father figure and feel that they are destined for something greater. Each is given a choice. Each choice is similar in nature, and paved with what they see as good intentions, yet each yields drastically different results due to the nature of the situation that they find themselves in.

    For Luke, he comes across Obi-wan while trying to track down R2-D2 in the wastelands of tattoine. Obi-wan tells him of his father, and how he was a Jedi and a great starpilot, as well as giving him the oh so important information that Darth Vader destroyed his father. All of this information is a temptation of sorts for Luke to leave his very normal, mundane upbringing with the Larrs family. So what does Luke decide to do? he rejects it. Despite his desires to move away from Tattoine he rejects the first oppurtunity he can to jump ship and chase adventure and excitement (traits of the dark-side). He says no, tells Ben he will take him to Mos-Eisley, and plans to return home.
    It's only when he returns to find his Aunt and Uncle, the only family that he has ever known, destroyed by the Empire, that he decides to embark on the mission with Obi-wan to Alderran.

    For Anakin, we see him beginning a similar type of situation in AOTC. It is clear that he feels he has begun to outgrow Obi-wan, not unlike the type of feeling that Luke was feeling with his uncle on Tattoine. The difference with Anakin is a much more precarious situation, almost in fact dangerous because of the already incredible skill that he possesses with the force. he has already mastered many of the physical Jedi skills and as most teenage boys do, he is looking to become the best at what he does as quickly as possible. We see Obi-wan trying to exert the same type of control with Anakin that Owen Larrs exerts with Luke. The only difference is that Anakin has others he can compare himself to, and he also has an outside influences who can promise bigger, greater more powerful things, at a much more excelerated rate.

    The Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.

    At this point, he has already begun to show signs of defiance, by disobeying and arguing with his master/mentor Obi-wan Kenobi over his frustration, Just as we will see Luke show defiance, (more so displeasure) with his uncle Owen Larrs when discussing whether he can join the academy or not. Anakin and Luke both meet an outside influence, one who can bring them what they each see as "greater possibilties". Obi-wan offers to teach Luke the ways of the force, and to become a Jedi like his father. I believe that Anakin's outside influence, Palpatine, will also make an offer to Anakin.

    The twist here is that for Luke, all he had was Owen and Beru. For Anakin he doesn't just have Obi-wan anymore, he
  17. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 30, 2000

    I don't mind the detours, but I'm glad to see the thread back on track with the original topic. Anakin is a piece of work, that's for sure.
  18. PadmeLeiaJaina

    PadmeLeiaJaina Jedi Grand Master star 6

    May 23, 2002
    Spitfires_Descent Bravo! Bravo! Brilliant post! (throws roses!)

    I love your analogies w/ Obi-Wan and Palpatine. Great connection you made there, truly insightful!
  19. Darthkarma

    Darthkarma Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 30, 2000

    Let me join the Lady of the Threads, the voluptuous and talented PadmeLeiaJaina,
    in throwing those roses. That's a superb
    post, Spitfire!
  20. IamZam

    IamZam Jedi Grand Master star 5

    May 19, 2002
    I posted this in another thread, but I think it fits here as well, with a few slight edits. My take on the Anakin character.

    As for Anakin being a spoiled brat. I beg to differ. Yes he was a slave, he had a mother who love him very much (unconditionally and fully )and wanted a better life, than one where his existance depened on the whim of who ever owned them. Where he had to work and was probably on occasion beaten (this is said in a few places). Oui Gon came along, instantly clicked with this young boy and became a father to him. He offered him freedom and a chance for something better and a chance to have his dream come true. However this came at a steep price. He knew he wouldnt' see his mother, he knew he would be in for some serious training, but he was also a 9 year old boy who, while he didn't have the greatest life was very close to his mother, and was for the most part quite happy.

    Qui Gon saw him as the chosen one destined to full fil a prophecy and offered him a chance at adventure and fulfilling his dreams. What boy wouldn't want that. But it required a lifetime commitment. Who is pepared to make that kind of commitment at 9. I certainly wasn't. He didnt have a clue what he was being dragged into. He knew what he would have to give up, but he wasn't fully understanding of just what a sacrifice it would be.

    The Jedi weren't as conecerned with him as they were with the prophecy. They were concerned with what he could do for them. He wanted it, but most likely was not at that age able to fully realize what he was getting himself into. They resigned to take him on, because well this was something they felt had to be more than they wanted it to be.

    First they interogate the poor kid, (granted they wanted to make sure Qui was right, and that he was really strong in the Force. Which is understandable .. but still), then they tell him no at first.. This leaves him wondering what will happen to him. Then he manages (semi accidentally on purpose) to take out the federation ship and out fly the best pilots around. By now he has no idea what is to become of him. He is a child with out two homes.

    Only the guy who adopted him up and gets himself killed. (Totally not intended, but that does't make the grief any less). The council changes their mind, not because the want him, but because they feel they must let this happen. The Sith are back and the realize that events are kicking into place. They resigned that he is the chosen one, and this is his destiny.

    He is apprenticed, not to a master who saw great potential, but a just knighted Master who only took him on as a promise to a dying man, and first saw him as the JC did, he is dangerous, and wasn't keen on him. (though there may have been a small amount of jealously there too, as Obi semi freaked when Qui Gon first mentioned taking on Anakin).

    So then he goes off to the Temple where he is the oldest trainee (the rest had been together since they were infants an knew no other life), and the youngest Padawan. Most are taken on by a master around 12 or 13 (like Obi was) those that don't get picked are not excommunicated, but go to work in other endeavors. (If QG, hadn't picked OB1, he would have been sent to the agricultural core if Iremember right). Most of the other padawans resented and were in awe of him. (according to the EU I've read and some I've infered from teh Novel).

    Eventually he and Obi Wan slowly did develop a close relationship, but there is still a rift there. Obi Wans see's him as being arrogant and over confident. Like a caring father he is concerned and is just beginning to realize that he may be in over his head with this one. He knows about Anakins history, but doesn't relate to where he is comming from. He has no attachments out side the Jedi order. (Friends are not the same as parents or lovers). He doesn't know for sure how to deal with Anakins issues. He is trying but hopelessly failing.

    Anakin knows he is much more powerful and has more potential but is feeling held back. He is feeling like Obi Wan only see's t
  21. Arriss

    Arriss Jedi Master star 4

    Jun 1, 2002
    This has to be one of the best threads I've read on TF.N & I'm impressed by the well thought out responses. No kiddie remarks. I've read, OMG, I don't know how many, posts on this site & only do an occassional reply but this one seems to hit home. While I concur with many of these posts there are a few I don't (ah, the human condition).

    I'll make this short due to time constraints. The Jedi order was getting staid. They were growing arrogant & over confident in their abilities. Why not? They hadn't had anyone challenge them in centuries and had grown complacent. A common error. Anakin was tossed into such a completely different environment than what he had w/his mother. How would/could that change a person? Esp. when they are as emotional as he is? Profoundly. Was OB1 the right teacher? No. How often do you rebel against a supervisor who continually chastises you, esp. in front of others? Unfortunately I've run out of time on my 'puter for now, I'll have to finish up this post tomorrow. <sigh>
  22. IamZam

    IamZam Jedi Grand Master star 5

    May 19, 2002

    Two Thumbs up !! Great analogy.. Wow!!
  23. SoloStrider

    SoloStrider Jedi Youngling

    May 15, 2002
    The whole Force map concept seems to have sailed way off topic, but I?d like to see if I can give some closure to that thought arc and actually bring it back on topic. One way to do that is to address the emotions that several posters on this topic consider to lie at the heart of human frailty, and try to tie them to the Force map.

    An easy place to start is the fear leads to anger leads to hatred leads to? mantra. Anger and hatred would seem to clearly tie to or belong on the Dark Side (leaving for later the issue of whether they are appropriate for both the Living and the Spirit sides). Can we assume the opposite emotions of anger and hatred clearly belong on the Light Side?

    The opposite of hatred is often assumed to be love. I think here that it?s more complicated, and that a ?polar opposite? emotion on the Force map would be compassion. My best representation for the opposite of anger would be serenity. Ep V: ?You will know when you are at peace.? Anger and hatred are destructive emotions. You?re not going to build much of anything if those are central to your life, much less a Galactic Empire. So there has to be more than anger and hatred in the Dark Side?s emotional palette. I think lust (for control and power) belongs there as well. That lets you build an Empire. I would think that love would be the proper opposite for lust, but that doesn?t seem to be well regarded on the Light Side because of its association with attachments, which are forbidden.

    Other candidates don?t seem to map well at all. Patience/impatience don?t seem to work. Even by Ep II, Palpatine?s master plan seems to have been cooking along for decades, which certainly implies the Light side has no monopoly on patience. A potential opposite of fear is confidence, but at its extreme confidence becomes arrogance, so how does that map?

    It seems to me that the whole emotion as human frailty concept boils down to not that emotions are bad, but that your choice of and control over your emotions tend to place you on one side or another on the Force map. Similar to but a different twist on Qui-Gon?s comment to Anakin in Ep I, ?Your focus determines your reality.? Here, it?s like ?Your [emotional] focus determines [the] reality [of] your [alignment]?.

    Ep V: ?Control, control! You must learn control.?
  24. ami-padme

    ami-padme Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Sep 19, 1999
    Spitfire -- fabulous post!
  25. Falls_the_Shadow

    Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Youngling star 3

    May 31, 2002
    ami-padme wrote:
    I think that Luke and Vader are crucial examples to one another in ROTJ. Luke sees Vader just as he's on the cusp of the Dark Side, and realizes where this is leading. And he pulls back. Vader sees Luke at the same point he was all those years ago, but his son has the strength not to fall, and shows his father that the Dark Side and the Empire can be defied. Anakin returns to the Light. They both help each other in that last scene, by illuminating each others choices. (Another thing Anakin didn't have when he fell.)

    Like the Binary Suns of Tatooine, father and son, both sons of Tatoonine, illuminate each other and ultimately, the galaxy. Gives added meaning to the scene outside of the Lars' homestead when Anakin gazes at the suns setting just as Luke will.

    Alas, before these two shine together, the eclipse will come and the shadow will fall.
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