Anakin's profoundly human frailty

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darthkarma, May 25, 2002.

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  1. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Solostrider - most people do believe the opposite of love is hate. It's not, it's indifference. You don't oppose an all-encompassing emotion with another all encompassing emotion. The opposite of an all-encompassing emotion is one that inspires no emotional reaction at all.

    Hi IamZam, I must disagree with some of your points on Anakin.

    Yes, I agree, as a 9 year old he had no idea what he was in for and what being a Jedi actually meant. He was too young to understand Qui-Gon's warnings that it was a hard life. To him, its yippy skippy, flying around the galaxy and cool laserswords.

    He finds out the hard way it's not.

    Yes, the Jedi Council did not accept Anakin for himself, but for what he supposedly is and can do. But they don't take ANY child for what or who he/she/it is. They take them as infants and only on their talents and strengths in the Force.

    Now the man who 'adopted' Anakin up and gets hisself killed. A newly knighted Jedi is emotionally blackmailed to take him on. Anakin still doesn't know what being a Jedi means, but he is feeling alone and cast adrift with people he hasn't yet connected to.

    Does 9 year old Anakin ever whine he wants to go home? Wouldn't the Council have allowed that? I believe they would have if he wanted it enough. He has tantrums, he sulks, he doesn't learn. He wants to go home. Yeah, I'm sure they would have.

    Now regarding:

    **Especially after what happened to his mother. His resentment towards then is growing with he told Obi Wan about his dreams and concerns many times, but it was just brushed off, in a concerned but platitudinal "its just a dream dont' worry about it" manner. Yet later he can't take the visions anymore, and what does he find. That he was right. That if Obi Wan had listened to him, he might (maybe maybenot) have been able to save her. He was right. Add another piece to the suit.**

    Anakin isn't 9 years old anymore. He's 20 (I believe). What does he know of the Jedi? THEY DON'T HAVE FAMILY TIES. The Jedi is his family. Now, he may not feel close to them, or perhaps just to Obi-Wan and still misses his mother, but that is a FAILING of his if he wants to be a Jedi. And does Anakin want to be a Jedi? Yep. He could hand in his lightsaber and run home to mother, anytime he felt like it, BUT HE DOESN'T DO IT. Obi-Wan said the best thing for him if he wants to be a Jedi. "The dreams will pass." Meaning, he's sympathetic, but YOU HAVE A JOB TO DO ANAKIN. Perhaps Obi-Wan's mother died in captivity or was murdered. He might have been able to save her as well, but didn't know her, he had no connection. So she had her own life and he has his. Neither intersect. Yes, Anakin DOES have a connection, but he must let his mother lead her own life even if it means the worst. Hard? You betcha. Being a Jedi is hard. Have you heard it enough yet, Anakin?

    **Who was in his dreams, and who was probably the one person he felt strongest for outside of his mother? Who when he comes back listens to him, is intersted and isnt' turned off by his "attitude". Who doesn't judge him, who takes him seriously? Who knows everything about where he comes from and what he has done, and still loves him? The answer is obvious -- Padme!**

    Padme knows next to nothing about his background and what he's been up to for 10 years. He's kept up with her ("I read they tried to amend the Constitution?"), but she never bothered with him that we know of. He has to tell her what's been happening. Padme doesn't judge him and that is leading to disaster. The Tuskens? She REALLY should have said something and that may have set Anakin back on track if he knew the two people he cared about most - Padme and Obi-Wan - vehemently disapproved of what he did.

    **When is he (and she as well) shown at his happiest, and freeist? When it is just the two of them on Naboo being themselves and forgetting the rest of the universe. When they leave their heads behind and think with thier hearts**

    He forgets about his mother too at this point until the dreams come around a
  2. Jedi_Lyn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2002
    star 1
    Anakin isn't 9 years old anymore. He's 20 (I believe). What does he know of the Jedi? THEY DON'T HAVE FAMILY TIES. The Jedi is his family. Now, he may not feel close to them, or perhaps just to Obi-Wan and still misses his mother, but that is a FAILING of his if he wants to be a Jedi. And does Anakin want to be a Jedi? Yep. He could hand in his lightsaber and run home to mother, anytime he felt like it, BUT HE DOESN'T DO IT. Obi-Wan said the best thing for him if he wants to be a Jedi. "The dreams will pass." Meaning, he's sympathetic, but YOU HAVE A JOB TO DO ANAKIN. Perhaps Obi-Wan's mother died in captivity or was murdered. He might have been able to save her as well, but didn't know her, he had no connection. So she had her own life and he has his. Neither intersect. Yes, Anakin DOES have a connection, but he must let his mother lead her own life even if it means the worst. Hard? You betcha. Being a Jedi is hard. Have you heard it enough yet, Anakin?

    It is clear to me Anakin has not yet fully learnt, in the first half of ATOC, that life is his own choice. GL wants to cast Anakin whining with a reason. you don't see people whining that much when they totally take their matter in their own hands. They don't blame other people about a choice they should make, either. To Anakin Obi-wan is responsible for a lot of his stuff. That is, IMHO, first of all obiwan's fault. I am not saying that in a bad way, you have that when your parants want to take care of your everything, too. Obiwan is omnipresent. He is ALWAYS in Anakin's mind. He mentioned him when he is cutting the pear for godsshake. He mentioned him when he is fighting in the driod factory. the problem is Anakin has not grown up enough. Obiwan should have given him some chance. You can't CARRY a person to maturity, you have to let him talk, trip and fall a couple of times, but the outcome will be better. I think Obiwan cares about Anakin too much to take any risk. fitting to his character.
  3. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    I have just read that thread all over again, and I very much enjoy all the different thoughts given in here by everybody. A lot of posts have given me some ideas about this wide subject (Anakin's human frailty), that I'd like to share with you.
    I'd like to comment on 2 subjects :

    First:
    I am sure that human frailty and balance of the Force (the Force map as Solostrider calls it) are linked. According to Solostrider : "your choice of and control over your emotions tend to place you on one side or another on the Force map". I agree. It comes to the "choice that we all face" matter, our lack of perfection, and our internal enemies, that is to say the Dark side/Light side in all of us.
    I thought at first, this Balance (ie Dark/Light side) was a description of the human condition (equilibrium btw evil and good), and that Anakin was the only "balanced" character.
    But then, when we say someone is unbalanced, we also mean he lacks control of himself. Emotionnally. In that case, it is directly human frailty.
    The 2 opinions seem to contradict each other. Difficult to find a logic. In the real world too.
    The more I think about it though, the more I think Undomiel is right: balance should be taken in the sense of control. Balance is the Light side. Balance is peace (see Jovieve : the opposed feeling of love is not hate but the absence of feeling). Internal peace (ie no emotion).
    So it is the 2nd opinion which should be right? Anakin stands for imbalance...and yet will bring balance to the Force. How is it possible ? I come to it later.

    Second:
    A very interesting point from Padmeleiajaina concerning "the eternity point, the inexhaustible point", and then the question about vergence.
    Vergence and Eternity.
    Vergence makes me think of something that is not yet existing (on the verge of), and yet that is appearing (because of the "ence" end in French). Verg(e-emerg)ence.
    And this made me think immediately of the Einstein Relativity Theory taken at the "zero age point": the beginning of the universe, the Big Bang. According to it, we cannot use the physics rules that will apply after to the universe, at THIS point, because the curvature of "time-space" (espace-temps) is infinite there (just as in black holes). This point is a mystery where all equations collapse. We cannot see what is there because of the so-called "events horizon" (horizon des évènements).
    The vergence in the Force could be seen as THIS point of emergence, wher the Force cannot be explained, nor DEFINED. The Force being compared to gravity (regulating our 4 dimentional space), in a universe full of Life.
    But also, the Beginning of the Universe, where it all comes from, is related to the question of Eternity (see up "infinite") and God ("someone at this point discovered Eternity").

    In the end, what do we have ?
    The Chosen One, (very much like Jesus, Mary's son in the christian religion), who is put into a human body ("the midichlorians might have created him directly, ie Life in the Universe, ie God in a Spinoza way of thinking). He commits sins, and will be redeemed in the end through unconditionnal love. The Messiah again.

    ...Which is the same as a description of human frailty and the way to overcome it (sacrifice one's self for others'Good), and which explains how Anakin, who stands for imbalance, will eventually bring balance to the Force.


    PS: Solostrider, Padmeleiajaina and Spitfires-descent, may I say, I really love your posts.
    Padmeleiajaina- After reading this thread again, it came to my mind, that I may have seemed, unvoluntarily, a little too abrupt. I just wanted to point out (page 3 of this thread if I remember right), where you could find more information, but not that you shouldn't write about this subject here. By the way, I think both are totally connected.

    PS: is there someone here who could tell me what LOL, IMO, and IMHO stand for ? I can't find these abbreviations in the dictionnary. Thanks.

  4. Arriss Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 1, 2002
    star 4
    Anakinforever - In answer to your query. IMO (In My Opinion), IMHO (In My Honest Opinion) LOL (Laugh out loud).

    Ever wonder if George Lucas even considered that his movies would generate such debates?
  5. ami-padme Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    Falls_the_Shadow:

    Like the Binary Suns of Tatooine, father and son, both sons of Tatoonine, illuminate each other and ultimately, the galaxy. Gives added meaning to the scene outside of the Lars' homestead when Anakin gazes at the suns setting just as Luke will.

    Alas, before these two shine together, the eclipse will come and the shadow will fall.


    Very well put. I love the scene with Anakin just before he goes to look for Shmi. It's clearly meant to echo Luke in ANH...but how different the paths before them are. Luke in that scene is frustrated, but seems to have a more wistful longing for a different life, upon which he will soon embark. Anakin, who has lost that wistful innoncence and learned the frustrations and the price of the Jedi life, is about to embark on his first decent into the Dark Side.
  6. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    <<<Padme doesn't judge him and that is leading to disaster. The Tuskens? She REALLY should have said something and that may have set Anakin back on track if he knew the two people he cared about most - Padme and Obi-Wan - vehemently disapproved of what he did>>>

    Well here's the thing, in the novel, Anakin is horrified at himself for giving into anger, he spats (something like) "Jedi's do not give into anger. To controll your anger is to be a Jedi." Padme responds back, "yes but to be angry is to be human. And you only human Anakin." It is then that he collapses and she comforts him.

    I don't understand why they left those couple of lines out of the film, other than the fact that NP put a hell of a lot of compassion into her expression when she reached down to him after Anakin collapsed. Maybe GL felt her expression summed up those 2 lines.

    Padme knew how much Anakin loved and missed his mother. The thing is, she doesn't know what Tuskin Raiders are, she's not from Tatooine. She probably only knew about them from what Cleigg said, "that they walked like men but were animals." She also saw that the man she was in love with was in deep despair and pain. The happy carefree boy she loved was vanishing before her eyes.

    He desperately needed comforting, not scolding. And yes that probably didn't help much in the long run. But it is the shortcomings of all of the characters who surround Anakin that will all contribute to his eventual fall.
  7. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yes, the Jedi Council did not accept Anakin for himself, but for what he supposedly is and can do. But they don't take ANY child for what or who he/she/it is. They take them as infants and only on their talents and strengths in the Force.

    The key word there is INFANTS. They have no say, and they grow up never knowing anything else. They bond with each other as a family of sorts. Anakin was the outsider in this.

    A newly knighted Jedi is emotionally blackmailed to take him on. Anakin still doesn't know what being a Jedi means, but he is feeling alone and cast adrift with people he hasn't yet connected to.

    And in many ways can't. He wants this very badly, and is just beggining to see how hard it is going to be. They are not going to make it easy on him. He will have to prove himself. And he knows that to do that, he will have to be tough. HE sure as heck can't go crying to Obi Wan at night. Instead when he is alone with himself he goes into his head to be alone with his idealized "angel". She is there for him, and doesn't even know it. He focus's on her instead.

    Does 9 year old Anakin ever whine he wants to go home? Wouldn't the Council have allowed that? I believe they would have if he wanted it enough. He has tantrums, he sulks, he doesn't learn. He wants to go home. Yeah, I'm sure they would have.

    Considering he is the Chosen One, I doubt they would just say "Okay bye, have a nice life". They need him. He want to be a Jedi, he is trying, even if he is not always succeeding. I doubt he ever talked about or expressed those feelings to Obi Wan or anyone else. I see him as trying to be the tough kid. The one who says bring it on I can take it. All the while inside he's falling apart. In the book for TPM, there is a scene that show's he was having anger problems and emotional issues even then. I can't remember exactly but on his way back from the Pod races, when he realizes Padme and go are going to be leaving, he is very upset, and this other kid comes out and picks on him. He goes balistic and beats the living daylights out of him. Clearly and early warning sign, that this kid has issues. But no one knew. By the time he gets back home to Qui and co. He is acting like nothing happened.

    Anakin isn't 9 years old anymore. He's 20 (I believe). What does he know of the Jedi? THEY DON'T HAVE FAMILY TIES. The Jedi is his family. Now, he may not feel close to them, or perhaps just to Obi-Wan and still misses his mother, but that is a FAILING of his if he wants to be a Jedi. And does Anakin want to be a Jedi? Yep.

    While you are correct that the choice is his, he also has a commintment, that one can't easily just break. Its not like quitting a job you hate. This is his whole life here. He is truly torn. Once you leave there is no turning back. He wants to be like them, but he isn't like them no matter how hard he tries. This is a life dream here. He just can't make himself be like them. And yes it is a failing. I am not defending him, only explaining him. He is also listening to Obi Wan. It is clear he respects Obi Wan's opinion, even if he doesn't always appear to show it. He shows disrespect to his face at times, but when Obi Wan isn't around many of his sentiments echo those lectures he has heard over and over. (typical kid, they act lke they aren't listening but they are). He want to think Obi Wan is right. It is only when he doesn't listen, and finds his dead mother, that he realizes he was right. Part of me thinks that maybe he expected to find all well, and then the dreams would go away. He wants desperately to please Obi Wan, and be like the other Jedi, but he can't. (He isn't. He is the chosen one. The different one.) That is when he truly starts his serious resentment of Obi Wan. His anger is taking over. It is bubbling up thru everything. He is angry at everyone and everything..


    Perhaps Obi-Wan's mother died in captivity or was murdered. He might have been able to save her as well, but didn't know her, he had no connection. So she had her own life an
  8. Darth_Marc Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2002
    star 1
    Darth Karma, excellent thread. I was thinking a lot of the same things. I don't understand why more people aren't captivated by the heart of story (human fraility). Everyone seems concentrated on the fights, the Fetts, the Clones, the special FX, etc., etc. I love the whole idea of human (Earthlike) qualities in an otherwordly universe. I can't wait to see what ultimately pushes Anakin over the edge. I have personally watched the OT countless times, as well as TPM, and on an emotional level I feel these movies don't compare (TESB comes close). I loved the way Hayden portrayed Anakin, and I can't wait to see what George and Hayden come up with for EP.3. I think we will get to see our hero (obviously) make the wrong decision (like a greek tragedy) and fail. Episode three will undoubtedly be my favorite movie.
  9. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    Darth_Marc- Sadly I have to agree with you. AOTC has managed to do something I never would have thought possible. It has helped to reduce Luke into appearing like a 2 dimensional character- who is actually the most interesting now in ROTJ, and made Vader appear to be the most complex character ever written.

    It's ALL because of Anakin's pain in AOTC. I suppose all those critics who proudly bashed AOTC would be confused by the fans reactions. I can only hope, given time the PT won't be seen as inferior to the OT, but as the ultimate triumph of a great visionary director.
  10. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    We can only hope PLJ.

    I think Lucas's best friend is the passage of time. When Episode III is done and it's possible to see the saga in it's entirety, perhaps a few people will grasp the scope and emotional depth of the story. But until then, most people are quite frankly baffled by a lot of what's going on in AOTC. I have a friend who could not understand why I kept raving about the Anakin character, the developments, and Hayden's portrayal. Now this friend is not dense, he's a fairly sophisticated movie-goer and when I said to him, Anakin IS Darth Vader, his eyes glazed over. He doesn't follow SW like I do, and while he may have known that, he forgot about it. He's confused. He doesn't SEE Vader when he looks at Anakin. He thinks of Vader in a black outfit with an oxygen mask. He's not making the connection and he's not alone. This is a problem with people appreciating the character arc that many of us on these boards enjoy discussing. They are simply not linking up the two characters and therefore the transition of Anakin from a young, innocent child to a monster is not registering with them. Hopefully it will in Episode III.
  11. DarthBreezy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2002
    star 6
    "It has helped to reduce Luke into appearing like a 2 dimensional character- who is actually the most interesting now in ROTJ, and made Vader appear to be the most complex character ever written. "

    I have to disagree here... I think knowing Luke's family history, his mother , his father and watching the struggles they go through (especially the father) make Luke a 'richer' character in my eyes... I was watching the OT after seeing AOTC and was amazed at the similarities between "Anakin" and "Luke" (this is definately a tribut to HC's acting and his respect for the fact that he must make the connection to MH)... One of the MANY things I'm looking forward to in III is to see the symmitry between Luke and His choices and Anakin and his own... Why will Ani turn when his son does not? Oh the mind reals.... In short, I've actually started to apprieceiate Luke MORE now that the Skywalker family history is being played out...
  12. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    DK I know what you mean. People don't get that Anakin is Vader. But even worse, they think Anakin should be portrayed as some horrifically angry, vile person who we would want to see become a Dark Lord. Well if that was the case, why would we ever want him to be redeemed?

    They don't seem to understand that Anakin is not the one Lucas is working on creating as the ultimate villan here, it is PALPATINE. The problem is the general public can't figure Palpatine out. They don't see that he is Sideous. They are baffled. I moan whenever I leave the theater I always hear people say things like "isn't that Palpatine guy bad?" Urrrgghhhhh...... (ends up pounding head against theater wall.)

    I'm suspecting with as beautifully GL put AOTC together, EP 3 will be a masterpiece. I can almost feel the surge in electric power as millions of lightbulbs blink on over the heads of critics when the final cords of music plays at the end of EP3. Hopefully it won't be hot that day and we need the AC, their limited brainpower being fully charged, could likely cause brownouts nationwide. :p
  13. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    DarthBreezy

    I still love Luke, don't get me wrong. I can't help it, I'm currently just too enthralled w/ Anakin. His brilliance is momentarily blinding me to his wonderful son.

    I think I need to rewatch the OT this holiday weekend, to unlearn what I have learned....
  14. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    PLJ, brownouts? LOL

    You bad!
  15. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Padme knew how much Anakin loved and missed his mother. The thing is, she doesn't know what Tuskin Raiders are, she's not from Tatooine. She probably only knew about them from what Cleigg said, "that they walked like men but were animals." She also saw that the man she was in love with was in deep despair and pain. The happy carefree boy she loved was vanishing before her eyes.

    He desperately needed comforting, not scolding. And yes that probably didn't help much in the long run. But it is the shortcomings of all of the characters who surround Anakin that will all contribute to his eventual fall.


    She wasn't looking at him thru her eyes, she was looking with her heart. She saw the strong man she has hopelessly in love with fall apart. What is she gonna do, yell at him. Not gonna happen. She loves him uncondionally. She only see's Anakin, and she wants to help him and make him better. She has the "fixer" helper persona. He is the one breaking, and she is the rock he can anchor to.

    They don't seem to understand that Anakin is not the one Lucas is working on creating as the ultimate villan here, it is PALPATINE. The problem is the general public can't figure Palpatine out. They don't see that he is Sideous. They are baffled. I moan whenever I leave the theater I always hear people say things like "isn't that Palpatine guy bad?" Urrrgghhhhh...... (ends up pounding head against theater wall.)

    Lets hope so.. I think some may eventually get it. I mean many of them hated the OT, when it came out, now suddenly its a classic. Most general non SW fans don't get the whole Palpy/Sids thing. They don't understnad that Palpy IS Sids, that the Empire doesn't overthrow the republic, the Rebublic BECOMES the Empire. Anakin is not the Jedi equivialant of Damien the Omen. HE is a human tragic fallen hero, who becomes a villian. They only see the surface story, the guns and good guys vs bad guys. They don't see that it goes much much deeper than that. George isn't just a great movie maker, he is a story telling genius who understands the human condtion as well as mythology and psychology. (Gee the guy must have cracked a book or two in his day huh?).

    I gave up trying to explain it to people. they either understand, (in which case they are also a fan) or they look at you like you are dancing in a tutu on the book shelf calling yourself Zogrutti king of the Pixies.




  16. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    IamZam, I know that feeling. I usually throw in the towel trying to explain it to them after awhile.
  17. RamRed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 4
    Everyone castigates Anakin for being too emotional to others.

    Okay, I can understand. To a certain point. Yes, one has to learn to disregard emotional ties to do one's job.

    It's just that I have a problem with how the Jedi goes about accomplishing this. They do not allow a person to learn this lesson, naturally. They attempt to force the issue by taking the infant away from his or her parents to be raised by the Jedi. And they also force a set of rules [including emotional] to make sure that a potential Jedi does not become emotionally attached.

    The methods that the Jedi practice to ensure that their padawans do not become emotionally attached is unnatural and very unhealthy. At least in my opinion.

    I was watching ROTJ and noticed how upset the dying Yoda was, when he learned that Luke knew that Vader was Anakin. And I found myself wondering - what if Luke had found out after destroying Vader? What would have been the emotional consequences then?

    Even after years of being a padawan, Obi-Wan was unable to distance himself from emotional ties. Look how he reacted after Qui-Gon was mortally wounded by Darth Maul. He became enraged. Just as Anakin had become enraged after Shmi's death.
  18. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    was watching ROTJ and noticed how upset the dying Yoda was, when he learned that Luke knew that Vader was Anakin. And I found myself wondering - what if Luke had found out after destroying Vader? What would have been the emotional consequences then?

    Sadly, I feel are poor Luke would have been destroyed, or at the very least he would have been seriously emotionally wounded. And most likely would never be able to forgive Obi Wan or Yoda for lying to him.

    Even after years of being a padawan, Obi-Wan was unable to distance himself from emotional ties. Look how he reacted after Qui-Gon was mortally wounded by Darth Maul. He became enraged. Just as Anakin had become enraged after Shmi's death

    Because he is human, and this was his "father". If one thinks about it the master/Padawan relationship is very much a parent child relationship. Almost a substitute in some ways. I've also noticed, and some one can point out to me if I am wrong, but it seems like Males take on male padawans and females take on other females. Thus strenghtening the bond further. Only Obi-Wans had a chance to get it together, and then take out Maul, when Maul dropped his guard and got overconfident. Anakin on the other hand rushed in acting first and thinking later. Very similiar, yet very different responses.
  19. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    <<<It's just that I have a problem with how the Jedi goes about accomplishing this. They do not allow a person to learn this lesson, naturally. They attempt to force the issue by taking the infant away from his or her parents to be raised by the Jedi. And they also force a set of rules [including emotional] to make sure that a potential Jedi does not become emotionally attached.

    The methods that the Jedi practice to ensure that their padawans do not become emotionally attached is unnatural and very unhealthy. At least in my opinion. >>>

    It's interesting to think about, because why the HELL did Obi-Wan and Yoda wait so long to train Luke? And if it took a half a lifetime for Old Republic Jedi's to become trained, how was it possible that Luke was ready after only 6 weeks of training? E3 better have all sorts of things answered.

    I also agree protecting Luke from the truth was a bad idea, up to a point. Yoda and Obi-Wan both knew Luke wasn't ready to face the burdon of the truth when he ran off to face Vader. The real victory was that Luke did not fear Vader, and this really impressed Vader. It also sparked Anakin back inside the machine. Isn't it interesting that Anakin is still the one rebelling against the Jedi Order? He's the one that reaches out to Luke, he tells him the truth.
  20. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    PLJaina re your response:

    **Well here's the thing, in the novel, Anakin is horrified at himself for giving into anger, he spats (something like) "Jedi's do not give into anger. To controll your anger is to be a Jedi." Padme responds back, "yes but to be angry is to be human. And you only human Anakin." It is then that he collapses and she comforts him.

    I don't understand why they left those couple of lines out of the film, other than the fact that NP put a hell of a lot of compassion into her expression when she reached down to him after Anakin collapsed. Maybe GL felt her expression summed up those 2 lines.

    The happy carefree boy she loved was vanishing before her eyes. He desperately needed comforting, not scolding. And yes that probably didn't help much in the long run. But it is the shortcomings of all of the characters who surround Anakin that will all contribute to his eventual fall.**

    Some more lines that were in the book that they left out of the movie was Padme saying something like "You don't hate THEM do you? You only hate what they did." To which Anakin responds, "No, I hate them."

    Padme is trying to tell him what he did was wrong and that his reaction was wrong. He reacts negatively to it, so she falls back on excusing his behavior by saying "You are only human." But he's not, he's Jedi and he's the Chosen One. He's supposed to be more than human, being conceived by the midichlorians. Padme doesn't know this though but Anakin sure does. He's been lording that title over everyone due to his abilities long enough to become 'arrogant' and think he can beat Yoda in swordsmanship, but when the time comes to show that he IS the Chosen One, he accepts Padme's excuse that he's only human. He's trying to have it both ways.

    I think in order to save time, George just cut those lines so Padme wouldn't seem like such an enabler and so Anakin wouldn't seem like such a total s-t.

    I don't think Padme ever thought of Anakin as happy and carefree. He seems to me to be deep and dark the entire movie and that's why Padme 'loves' him. He's tragic, in pain, is misunderstood and needs fixing.


    IamZam regarding your responses:

    **The key word there is INFANTS. They have no say, and they grow up never knowing anything else. They bond with each other as a family of sorts. Anakin was the outsider in this.**

    And he doesn't try to fit in, he wears different clothing and doesn't toe the line with the other Padawans who may have been more accepting had he tried.

    **And in many ways can't. He wants this very badly, and is just beggining to see how hard it is going to be. They are not going to make it easy on him. He will have to prove himself. And he knows that to do that, he will have to be tough. HE sure as heck can't go crying to Obi Wan at night. Instead when he is alone with himself he goes into his head to be alone with his idealized "angel". She is there for him, and doesn't even know it. He focus's on her instead.**

    I thought the Jedi made it easier for him. He has to prove himself, of course. They're not going to let him slide on the studying and exercises, of course. But they will make exceptions for him that they wouldn't for any other Padawan because he IS the Chosen One and because of his age. That makes him arrogant and makes him decide to push the envelope to see how far he can go before they push back. And it seems he can push a lot - see AOTC ("You will be expelled from the Jedi Order!" After Padme falls out during the Dooku chase, Anakin throws all his training out the door after her. At first, Obi-Wan pleads love, "I need your help!" When that doesn't work, he pleads duty, "We can end this right now". That doesn't work either. He has TO THREATEN. And even THAT doesn't work. Obi-Wan had to bring up Padme's own devotion to duty before he could rein in Anakin. THAT's telling).

    **Considering he is the Chosen One, I doubt they would just say "Okay bye, have a nice life". They need him. He want to be a Jedi, he is trying, even if he is not always succeeding.
  21. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4


    Well, he's only human. And humans fail. And are sometimes frail. That's what Lucas is illustrating in STAR WARS. Makes for a good story!
  22. anakinforever Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2002
    Arriss-
    Thanks for your help and comments.
    All right. I probably went too far and GL may have not thought about all this at all. It was just my intuition, although it is not so absurd to think about physics in a science fiction movie talking about a galaxy far far away in the universe (even Yoda speaks of the "gravitation memory" of the missing planet).
    It is not absurd also to link it to the jude-christian civilization and its myths that most of us(and GL) grew up in.
    Somebody wrote in another thread (see first pages of the love story discussion thread) that the scene btw A/P sharing a fruit on Naboo, can be compared to the Temptation Fruit and Eve biting into the fruit on an Eden planet. I think the comparison is marvellous and I doubt that GL did not think about it when writing the scenario. Temptation is humain frailty I gusse on a religious point of view.
    GL is very much aware of tiny artistical or plot details in many ways. He is so brilliant. His movies are not only action movies but deliver numerous messages in my opinion.
    It is also true that when we make an interpretation (of a literature book, a movie etc...), we sometimes see things in there, that the author didn't intentionnally (unsubconsciously sometimes ?) wanted to tell. What we see is what we get. Science fiction is great because you can dream a lot. guesses, interpretation is part of the fun for me, and I truly apologize if I am boring someone.
    Anyway, there are many ways to see Anakin'shuman frailty.
    - in a psychological way as already mentionned a lot here. I understand like you all how he reacted. I'd be desperate if something like that happened to me (yet I don't know how I would react. You never know before it happens, do you ?).
    - in a religious way (the siths = the sins ?)
    - even in a political way. This movie is about democraty vs dictatorship. We could relate it to the very sad 1930's period where a very dark and awfull dictator finally managed to take the full-powers and led to war. Human frailty (fear, cowardness, hate etc.) let him do that. Episode III will probably tell more about this aspect of Anakin's human frailty. I do hope cowardness will not be on his part, because I love Anakin's character too much. And I can't imagine his fall ! other than because of his love for Padme.
    But again, it is just my guess. Only GL knows.
  23. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Jovieve,

    I agree that he had choices. He is a very emotionally unstable person. He had emotional problems before he was taken in. Yoda was right in his first assesment. There was much anger and fear. He was not able to let this go and move past it. Looking at it from Anakins's point of view. He has been a follower all his life. There has always been somebody else in some form of "master role". Does he even realize that he has a choice and is making his own path. Or is he too fogged up too see, beyond the here and now.

    Often it is much easier to see the solution when it is somebody else's problem. I don't see Anakin as a total victim. I am trying to get inside of his head and look at it how I think he might see it.

    The truth is he made a choice. He made some bad choices for what to him in his mind were good reasons. He let his emotions rule, instead of his rationality. His id is ruling, and his ego is fractured. His arrogance in someways is an overcompensation for a very fragile sense of self.

    Does 9 year old Anakin ever whine he wants to go home? Wouldn't the Council have allowed that? I believe they would have if he wanted it enough. He has tantrums, he sulks, he doesn't learn. He wants to go home. Yeah, I'm sure they would have

    But the thing is, I dont' think he ever does whine and come out to say "I want to gome home, I dont like it here". He was to afraid of dissapointing to many people, his mother, Qui Gon, Obi Wan.. to name a few. It would also have meant admitting that Yoda and company were right aabout him.

    He may have had a few tantrums, and problems, but its never really shown in either movie what those interviening 10 years were like. I havne't read most of the EU for that period, so I am only speculating, and extrapulating backwards.

    Also when Obi Wan goes to Mace and Yoda with his concerns, they basically tell him to have faith that Anakin will do the right thing. "If he is the chosen one, then he is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance." They don't even consider that Anakin needs major help.

    IN Earth terms this kid needs therapy.. and some tough love. He is not a kid anymore, but he is not a man yet either.

    Its not coincindence that when we first meet Anakin he is nine. Itis a privotal age. If they had taken him in at a younger age, he would have been able to let go of his mother better. Then we meet him again at 20 and he is also on the cusp.

    I don't agree with his choices, but I have a lot of empathy for this character. He is a very human character, a very flawed, person. He is not a god. He is very mortal and bleeds physically and emotionally. He was not able to learn how to let go. That is a large part of his down fall, and part of the attraction I think also.

    It funny I never gave Vader much of a thought before. Even after TPM. He was the bad guy in a black suit. and oh yeah he's L/L's dad. I saw him as very angry, but still a total Bad@$$. Even after seeing him as an overly cute kid in TPM.

    But now after seeing AOTC, adn watch HC's perfomance. I can't help but feel empathy for him. Watching him turn will be very very hard indeed.

    I applogize for rambling. Its early here and my brain sometimes doesnt' know how to turn itself off.

  24. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Obi-Wan never told Anakin that his dreams were nothing to worry about. He just said they would pass. Once Shmi died, they would have. Had Anakin just waited a few more days, they would have passed and he would have gone on in his life without the tragic Tatooine Dark Side detour. I did not get the impression in AOTC that he wants to please Obi-Wan. I get that he wants Obi-Wan off his back or he wants to impress him. Not please him.

    Maybe or maybe not. We don't really know that. However I do seem him as wanting to " please Obi Wan but at the same time, he also feels resentment towards him. He is always saying Obi Wan this, Obi Wan that. (Obi woudl be very grumpy, Obi is gonna kill me. Obi Wan is great but... When Obi Wan tells Anakin he is going to be the death of him, Anakin looked rather hurt. But at the same time in the chase after Zam he is giving the "bla bla bla"" Yes Master, Whatever Master. Clearly two conflicting emotions, at work.

    I agree he shouldn't have gone to Tatooine, but this is part of his fraility. He can't let go of things. He was never able to learn this. But I don't agree that he wasn't torn. He was totally in conflict. His voice was broken. He denied the nightmare at first. He looked and sounded ready to break down . "I must go, I have to help her. " "I know I am breaking my mandate, but I have to..""I see her as clear as I see you, she is suffering.." He is pleading with her, almsot begging.

    She is feeling his pain and is trying to be the supportive girlfriend. He is torn and conflicted within himself. In his mind he is doing the right thing. In her mind all she can see is the man she loves in pain, and she wants to do what ever she can to make it better.

    Obi-Wan is ready to deal with someone who wants to help himself. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. Those friends of mine who didn't change, I didn't hang around long. I rapidly got tired of listening to the same old s-t and bailing them out of the same old problems over and over again. It is Anakin's destiny to fail. He's been failing from the very start. He was flawed from the very beginning

    But the first part of that is for one to acknowledge that they have a problem in the first place. I don't think Anakin is ready to admit that he has those problems. He may talk about it with Padme, (but he will most likely have a way of explaining or justifying it) but he won't come out to Obi Wan or the JC, as to his way of thinking that would be admitting weakness. Weakness is something that both Anakin and Vader detest. We can see where he is going wrong. But in his own mind he is still making excuses, to deny what part of him may deep down know but not want to admit.
  25. ophelia Cards Against Humanity Host. Ex-Mod

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2002
    star 6
    Padmeleiajaina writes:

    <<Wherever a hero has been born, has been wrought, or has passed back into the void, the place is marked and sanctified. A temple is erected there to signify and inspire the miracle of perfect centeredness; for this is the place of the break through into abundance. SOMEONE AT THIS POINT DISCOVERED ETERNITY. The site can serve, therefore, as a support for the fruitful meditation. Such temples are designed, as a rule, to simulate the four directions of the world horizon, the shrine or altar at the center being symbolical of the Inexhaustible Point.>>

    This brought to mind Obi-Wan's last act before he dies--lifting his lightsaber into a noncombative, vertical position. In Iaido (a sort of second-cousin to kendo) this position is called tenchi, and it's properly a physical meditation. The vertical blade is supposed to represent the link between heaven and earth, the crossing point being the swordsman's "gut." (Literally his hara, the symbolic equivalent of "heart" for us.)

    Imagine the combined connotations of an old gunslinger dropping his 6-shooter back into its holster and a Knight Templar kneeling and crossing himself. Given the importance of kendo in the development of lightsaber technique, I suspect this reference was deliberate. A very powerful moment.
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