Anakin's profoundly human frailty

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Darthkarma, May 25, 2002.

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  1. PadmeLeiaJaina Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2002
    star 6
    ophelia
    Wow that was really insightful and interesting!
  2. kenobikenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 3
    wow! this thread is awesome!

    I was just reading this thinking "Poor Obi-wan...Poor Anakin...Poor Padmé..." when I all of a sudden a thought popped into my head... "These people are not real!"

    Its really confusing. They seem so completely real! Its really sad because i'm becoming so attached to these characters. Man am I going to be a mess when this is all over. Its going to be like saying good bye to old friends! *sniffle* :(
  3. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Ophelia - that post really rocked!

    DarthKarma - yes, since this thread is about Anakin's human fraility, I agree all humans are flawed, but as my post pointed out, Anakin is not totally 'human'. He was conceived by the midichlorians. He's at least 1/2 human, he's 1/2 something else.

    IamZam - Yes, Anakin needs therapy. He probably has access to counseling and therapy at the Jedi Temple, but he either never feels he has a problem or he doesn't want to have a problem. He's beyond help if he won't help himself first.

    Yoda and Mace put a lot of trust in Anakin to do the right thing. Anakin himself knows what the right thing to do is. He just doesn't do it. I don't think he's ever tortured or conflicted about it. He just follows his emotions and they are always in contrast to what he should do.

    I'm sorry, but I have very little sympathy for his kind of problem. He doesn't have to be a superman, he has to want to try or have some self-awareness. I dealt with his kind of problems in my friends. I liked them, they were my friends for a reason, but they became what I came to call 'personality vampires'. Their neediness sucked you dry after a while and in the end, they were unable to 'give' you anything back when you needed support, because - well, THEY need more help than you. The self-centeredness, the ego (arrived at by whatever reason) was all encompassing. They couldn't see past themselves.

    I wonder if that is what Padme will run into with Anakin.

    Kenobikenobi - I know exactly how you feel. Me and my boyfriend both feel that these movies are really part of some great novel somewhere or the skimmed condensed history of a real people from the past. I get depressed and sad over events and have to literally shake myself - they're not real.

    Great job George, the characters do live!
  4. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    Thanks for the compliment, Ami-Padme.

    After seeing Ep II, I couldn't help but think of this:
    "It might have all been different, Jack. You got to believe that."
    All The King's Men by Robert Penn Warren
    The details of the plot couldn't be more different, yet each centers around the tragedy of one who had great potential. Now when Anakin tells Luke in ROTJ, "tell your sister, you were right about me," I can see it as Anakin's version of "it might have all been different" and WE, the audience, got to believe that. Now, I do.

    Speaking of things turning differently, Luke's frality is revealed by Anakin's frailty. Anakin's dark side slide starts with taking vengence on those who murdered his mother. Starting with ANH, Luke goes after the man who killed his foster parents (Owen, Beru, Obi) and his father--the great starpilot. In ROTJ, Luke goes nuclear on Vader after he threatens to go after Leia.

    I really loathe Anakin when I think of him harming Padme's children, baiting Luke with Leia.
  5. Enigma_X Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 2
    Without Palpy, Anakin would not have fallen. Perhaps he would have stayed with the Jedi and become a Knight. Perhaps he would have left the Jedi, moved in with Padme and been a mechanic or a pilot.

    But I have to wonder- in Anakin's particular situation, is there anyone who would not have fallen?

    We might say one of the other Jedi, a "good" Jedi. But all those other Jedi have been raised their entire lives as such. They sure as hell were not raised as slaves. Their masters chose them; they do not feel like a burden on their masters (read JQ, it makes it very clear that Anakin thinks he's a burden on Obi-Wan). None of them were rejected initially and then taken when their father figures died. None of them had their mothers die in their arms. Furthermore, Palpatine talks routinely to the Jedi Council- a group of 12 JEDI MASTERS, some of them nearly 1000 years old- has, in fact, done so for years, and none of them suspect a thing. They are arrogant- you can see it, again and again, in their words and actions. Do we expect a teenaged boy to see through him when they do not?

    We might say Luke. But Luke's anger is diminished. The object of his hatred turns out to be his father. His father needs to be "fixed" (Anakin, it seems, always does). Luke does not have to feel that he is inferior or that he does not fit in. When he leaves Tatooine he winds up with a bunch of good friends; he does not wind up being the misfit among kids who have been raised together. He is trained by Ben and Yoda, who now have a great deal more wisdom having dealt with Anakin and the fall of the Republic. They, too, have lost their arrogance. Finally, when he faces Palpatine, he faces a walking corpse with a 20-year record of nothing but self-serving cruelty. This is a known Dark-Sider, the one who took his father and enslaved a galaxy. This is not, as Anakin believed, a Force-blind, promise-keeping hero who helped free his beloved Padme's planet and actually gets things done in the corrupt, decaying Republic. Furthermore, Palpatine has just left the task of turning Luke to his father, Vader, who has very mixed feelings about the whole shebang. Think of how close Luke came to turning at the end of ROTJ. With just a couple changes in circumstance, you *know* he just might have taken that last step.

    It is not my intention to dismiss the strength of Luke or of the Old Republic Jedi. I simply know that it is clear to me that I don't know of anyone who- given Anakin's precise circumstances- would not have fallen. I mean, come on. Everybody has weaknesses. But nobody except Anakin had an evil genius spend 10 years learning how to use those weaknesses against them. Furthermore, who is to say that Anakin was not meant to fall from the time those midichlorians conceived him? He is supposed to balance the Force. He *is* the Chosen One- GL says so, and since GL came up with the whole dratted thing, it must be so. Could he balance the Force if he had died in the Purge at the hands of whatever apprentice Palpatine took in his stead?

    There is something I did not "get" until fairly recently. I was somewhat confused as to why it was so bad for Anakin to follow his emotions, but good- in the end- for Luke to do so. Luke chooses not to destroy his father despite the fact that both the Dark Side (represented by the Emperor) and what would *seem to be* the Light Side (represented by Yoda and Obi-Wan) are telling him to. I don't think Yoda and Obi-Wan were truly the Light in this case; how can patricide be of the Light? I think, in this single moment, Luke is more purely Light than....well, I don't know, but he's pretty dang Light. I understood that Anakin's anger, fear and agression are Dark, why would it be so bad for him to give in to his love for Padme? I understood that Yoda's concern was not that Anakin was "too old", but that he had known his mother. I think my problem was this: I was equating his love for Padme with his fall. This was clearly faulty thinking, just like many fans' perception that Yoda's concern about Anakin's attachment to his mother wa
  6. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Everybody has weaknesses. But nobody except Anakin had an evil genius spend 10 years learning how to use those weaknesses against them.

    Yet what has this "evil genius" really done specifically "to" Anakin? Nothing, except talk to him, in a way that anyone might. It doesn't take an "evil genius" to do what Palpatine does with Anakin. In fact plenty of people do that everyday without even having a plan in mind, they just happen to be a "bad influence" or heck, they just give bad advice. Like the devil, Palpatine can't "make" Anakin do anything, just present certain choices to him. Of course he'll make those choices attractive, but ultimately it's Anakin who chooses them BECAUSE of Anakin's already present weaknesses, that Anakin also has the choice to overcome.

    But Anakin chooses not to probably in part because he is afraid of change, and that includes changing himself. Even when he makes a "change" on the surface, he won't truly embrace the change inside. He refuses to take the path to self-awareness, he won't self-analyse himself, preferring instead the illusion of safety in the familiar, even if is is of his own flaws that really are a danger to him.

    Palpatine simply presents the "point of view" that they aren't a flaw, that they aren't a danger and Anakin is eager to believe it. But again, everyone really faces that sort of thing in life without the need for an evil genius to be doing it. It might even just be that voice inside your own head(um..figuratively I mean, you know the devil on shoulder, the angel on the other). In the case of Star Wars, we just happen to see those sorts of things personified, but it's really the same thing.

    Not everyone would have made the choices Anakin made given the same situations and the same experience.

    Lucas is showing us that everyone is "human"(so to speak) with the PT and that includes the Jedi, that includes Obi-Wan and that includes Padme. They don't have Anakin's exact situations, but they have their own, just like everyone does. It doesn't take someone "special" to *not* do turn into Darth Vader. We are as capable of being Luke or Obi-Wan or Leia as we are of being Anakin.
  7. kenobikenobi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2002
    star 3
    I agree Enigma_X

    Alot of people say that Luke is the strongest Jedi because he was able to resist the temptation of the dark side and Anakin was not. However, I think that Anakin had alot more things happen to him that lead to him being more open to the dark side than Luke.
  8. Darthkarma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 30, 2000
    star 4

    The last few posts do a great job of indicating we all have potential to go down the right OR the wrong path. And I think that is one of the main messages Lucas is attempting to communicate with the saga.

    I hope younger people "get it."

    It's one of the main reasons the films were made in the first place.
  9. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Enigma_X,
    You make a lot of sense. I haven't read JQ, but I can totally understand why Anakin would feel that way. He knows that the only reason he is with Obi Wan is because Qui Gon made him promise him when he was dying. He knows Obi Wan never really wanted him. And that has to hurt.

    Add in that Obi Wan seems to be so concerned with correcting Anakin, that he forgets he also needs to let him know when he is doing something right. Just going by the movie, the look on Anakins face when Obi Wan tells him "Good shot my youung Padawan" is priceless. It says a lot.

    There is no way to know this, but I suspect if there were fewer issues and Obi Wan was a little better teacher in some ways, Anakin may not have been so eager to listen to Palpy's ego strokes. I mean who among us wouldn't choose the guy who says what we want to hear, vs. the guy who may have our best interests at heart, and care, but who tells us what we need to improve. He is human, and he was so desperate for acceptance that he ate up Palpy's poison with a spoon. Other's are starting to notice something suspicoiuls about Palpy, even Obi Wan, but Anakin defends him. Why? because he is always ready to tell Anakin exactly what he wants to hear. He is being measured for the suit, but doesnt' see it. I doubt many in his boots would. He is the lonely, insecure kid who is lead astray by the evil guy on the corner who knows how to manipulate him, because he is desperate enough to listen. If Anakin had the full self esteem of most Jedi he most likely would have been able to see thru Palpy's manipulations.

    I know that part of being a teacher is correcting pupils and letting them know how to improve themselves, but they also need to hear what they are doing right. Obi Wan seems to be missing this. I dont' blame him he is also under a lot of pressure. Also the way he keeps calling him "Young Padawan" and so forth. He seem's in a small way to also resent Anakin.

    They both have grown to caring for each other alot, but there is also alot of resentment, and other issues. (Face it, these two really need to go build a house. LOL). Thinking back to ANH and ROTJ it seems that if you watch closely you can also detect a bit of guilt in old Obi Wan when he talks about Anakin. I think this along with the need to protect Luke are why Yoda and Especially Obi Wan did not want to tell the truth. Protecting Luke was most important, but there was also a bit of guilt, especially in Obi's case. He knows he screwed up royally.
  10. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I dont' blame him he is also under a lot of pressure. Also the way he keeps calling him "Young Padawan" and so forth. He seem's in a small way to also resent Anakin.

    I think the very fact that he tells Anakin "Good call" shows that he does in fact compliment Anakin, when Anakin deserves it. You know, Qui-Gon called Obi-Wan "My young padawan" as well(of course he didn't talk to Obi-Wan as much as Obi-Wan talks to Anakin but he did it more than once none the less and in situations where he was correcting him or saying "You still have much to learn my young padawan" yet no one has a problem with it, including Obi-Wan).

    Also, Obi-Wan is training a Jedi. A Jedi cannot be resentful because of what someone else calls them, whether it's "you bas***" or "My young padawan". If Anakin has a problem with it, very likely that would just cause him to be called it that much more often. It's up to Anakin to LEARN that he shouldn't be affected by it by using what he has learned as a Jedi and of the Jedi philosophy. Especially when Anakin IS in fact young and a padawan. If he doesn't want to be called it, he shouldn't act, quite frankly, even younger than he is much of the time.

    I saw no resentment towards Anakin from Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan didn't seem to have a problem with the fact that Anakin was better at him in some things, what he had a problem with, as well he should has a Jedi teacher, was the fact that Anakin was arrogant about it and also that this arrogance at times caused Anakin to overestimate himself and to take reckless actions based on it, which could put himself and others in danger. He also had a problem with Anakin's show off tendency for the same reasons.
  11. libwil Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2002
    Agreed and also for all of Anakin's gifts the very same thing he fought hard to escape from(slavery)was the very same thing he returned to in terms of him being a servant for Palpatine/Sidous. He cared nothing for Anakin only his gifts and I noticed toward ROTJ that Darth had a chain around his neck like the evil sith lord was shocking him when he failed to do something right. My heart cried for Anakin and Padame. Nevertheless I heard Anakin doubletalk himself. Take for example in the field with Padame and Padame says You gonna use one of your jedi mind tricks and Anakin responded they only work on the weak-minded. I studied Anakin real carefully and thought to myself yeah buddy you are the one, the weak-minded one.I just bought the videocassetes of The Original Trilogy and wonder to myself why Darth sought Luke so much was he crying out to luke for help? Who knows but I hope this thread goes on for a long time.
  12. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Also, Obi-Wan is training a Jedi. A Jedi cannot be resentful because of what someone else calls them, whether it's "you bas***" or "My young padawan". If Anakin has a problem with it, very likely that would just cause him to be called it that much more often. It's up to Anakin to LEARN that he shouldn't be affected by it by using what he has learned as a Jedi and of the Jedi philosophy. Especially when Anakin IS in fact young and a padawan. If he doesn't want to be called it, he shouldn't act, quite frankly, even younger than he is much of the time.

    I saw no resentment towards Anakin from Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan didn't seem to have a problem with the fact that Anakin was better at him in some things, what he had a problem with, as well he should has a Jedi teacher, was the fact that Anakin was arrogant about it and also that this arrogance at times caused Anakin to overestimate himself and to take reckless actions based on it, which could put himself and others in danger. He also had a problem with Anakin's show off tendency for the same reasons.


    You are correct. And with any other Jedi, that would have worked. Unfortunatley Anakin isnt' like that. He has an uinsatiable need for approval. (it is one that is so deep nobody could ever give him enough) It is one of his biggest flaws and failings. Obi Wan didn't mind and accepted it, because he was confident and knew Qui Gon had his best interests at heart.And he was a much more mature and insightful person, who did NOT need constant approval. He could take it for exactly what it was, deal with it, work on himself and move on.

    Anakin is arrogant (to hide his total lack of esteem), and he is dangerous especially when he is angry. There is no arguing that. Obi Wan was a teacher and he had a job to do, but there is more to it. As Anakin's teacher and parent figure his job went beyond teaching him the Jedi skills and how to use them, and be a better person/Jedi.

    He (along with Padme later) were in a position to see just how messed up Anakin is. And while he did try to talk to the coucil and they had a lot of faith in Anakin, which he (Anakin)totally blew. But faith this is what will end up costing them dearly.

    They didn't listen to Obi Wan, who didn't realize most likely until Anakin turned on him the extent to which Anakin's problems run. Before then he was probably one of only maybe two people (three before his mother died) who would have stood a chance of getting thru to him that there are some serious issues here, and that he (Anakin) will never make knight if somethings don't change.

    And its not just the fact that he says young Padawan. Qui said it with love and concern, like a father talking to his son. Loving and tough where ever needed and correcting when ever appropriate. Obi Wan was also much more respectful and willing to listen and learn.

    Obi Wan clearly loves Anakin (there are many scenes which show this) and is very concerned but he is also fed up to here, and is totally frustrated. Anakin is just not listening and is not getting it. ("I've heard this lesson before" "But you haven't learned anything") But his words are not comming out the same way, at least not in some cases. His frustration is comming thru, and that is complicating matters. Obi Wan is quite right about Anakin. He just isnt' able to put it in the way to get thru Anakin's thick head.

    He was barely able to get thru to Anakin in the transport. Anakin doesn't even seem to hear or care until he mentions Padme and then he finally seems to here him and come back. (another serious red flag).

    Obi Wan see's the red flags everywhere, but has no clue how to get thru to Anakin. Faith in him, and standard Jedi teaching methods are not going to work. Anakin can't/won't see the problem. Padme loves him too much and may think her love is enough (sadly it isnt). Obi Wan is concerned deeply, but woefully unprepared for dealing with a person like Anakin, and he has his own issues with Anakin that he will have to put aside first. He is one who would be able to do this, as he is a
  13. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    EDITED: You added stuff to your post, after I posted that made my post sort of out of place so I've edited it out. :D

    As Anakins teacher and parent figure his job went beyond teaching him the Jedi skills and how to use them.

    Obi-Wan did that--wasn't it him trying to cheer Anakin up on the elevator? Making a joke at his own expense no less? Wasn't it Obi-Wan who, after quite rightly telling Anakin to not focus on the negative, also added reassuringly that Padme was in fact glad(as even jar Jar noticed)? Wasn't it Obi-Wan talking to him warmly, with much concern showing in his eyes and face in Padme's apartment that night because he was concerned about Anakin and his tiredness?

    It was Anakin who didn't see that teaching him went beyond Jedi Skills and how to use them. Obi-Wan was constantly trying to get Anakin to think about what he was doing, to take the Jedi philosophy to heart and Anakin was having none of it. Anakin CHOSE to study to be a Jedi yet he was refusing to learn what it took to be a true Jedi because he was only interested in the physical manifestations of it. Obi-Wan knew that teaching him was more than simply his skills, that is why he was concerned about him going on this solo mission. His skills made him arrogant and he wasn't learning the Jedi philosophy behind them and enabling him to use those skills for good.

    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. The horse that was Anakin just wasn't drinking. Anakin had to choose that, and Anakin wasn't.
  14. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    But anyway, Obi-Wan has tried to to do more than simply be a teacher to Anakin. Isn't he the one trying to cheer Anakin up in the elevator? And by making a joke at his own expense no less. Isn't he the one after quite properly telling Anakin to stop focusing on the negative, then saying reassuringly that Padme was in fact glad about it?(which heck even Jar Jar knew) Isn't he the one who starts the very personal conversation with him about his tiredness in Padme's apartment because he is concerned about Anakin, who talks to Anakin warmly and with concern in his eyes?

    Yes, very much so. He clearly cares, alot. But that isn't going to be enough.. I'm not versed in psychology enough to know exactly what Anakin needs, especially since he is very dangerous when he is angry, but I almso think he needs something along the lines of tough love. He just can't see why his attitude is such an issue.

    Teaching him more than Jedi skills and how to them is exactly what Obi-Wan was doing, but all Anakin was INTERESTED in learning was Jedi Skills and how to use them. Obi-Wan was trying to get Anakin to think and take to heart the Jedi philosophy but Anakin only saw that as Obi-Wan's holding him back because he wasn't advancing his skills. Anakin's skills were advancing quicker than his character was growing as a Jedi, but he had to learn the philosophical/spiritual side of it in order to be a true Jedi and use his Jedi skills and powers properly and for good.

    Once again we see the same thing but differently. Obi Wan was trying and trying, but it wasn't working. Anakin wasn't understanding and listening to him. He was but he wasn't. His abilities were growing by leaps and bounds, but he was not developing the neccesary maturity and abiltty to handle responsibilty that came with those abilities. Obi Wan should see that he needs to try a different method. I don't know if there is a method that would get thru to Anakin. Anakin just won't see, and Palpy is only making things worse. By feeding his ego, he is insuring that Anakin is even less likely to listen to Obi Wan. Obi Wan is clearly correct, but he is doing something wrong because he can't get thru. Anakin makes his own choices and only he is responsible for them, as we all ultimately are. But along the way there are those who can see where the car is headed and have the opportunity to make an attempt to stop it. Obi Wan is trying but it isnt working.

    You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Anakin's horse was just refusing to drink. Anakin chose to be a Jedi. But he was refusing to learn that which it took to be a true one.

    And when you see the horse just wont' drink, you try a different means to get it to drink. Sometimes you need to spell it out in black in white, and hit them over the head with it. If you don't get over your blasted anger problem and learn to control your emotions and grow up a bit more, you are never going to make Knight and you will buy yourself awhole lot of trouble. I as your teacher can only do so much, it is up to you, you are making a mess out of your life, and dragging others down with you.. I am angry and I am fed up with you.." But probably in better words. And sometimes sadly there is NOTHING anyone can do., AS the horse insists on dying of thirst no matter how much water is offered.
  15. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Sorry about the editing Ibo. It wasn't until after I posted that I realized I typed so fast my spelling and grammer would make an English teacher cringe. So I fixed that and started elaborating..
    :)
  16. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Again, Obi-Wan can only do so much. He couldn't force Anakin to learn. He couldn't force Anakin to overcome his problems. Anakin had to choose to do that and Anakin didn't. Anakin had to choose to open his eyes to himself, to analyze himself, to become self-aware.

    Look at the argument on the gun ship. Someone pointed out that this is probably like a "mini-summary" showing the fact that Obi-Wan has tried different ways of trying to get Anakin to do this. Obi-Wan tries to appeal to Anakin's own sense of duty("If we can stop him maybe we can stop this war"), Obi-Wan tries to appeal to Anakin's relationship with him, as his master and friend and fellow Jedi("I can't take Dooku on my own, I need your help"), Obi-Wan then tries to be tough with him(telling him he'll be expelled from the Order) even that doesn't work. This shows that Obi-Wan has tried different methods with Anakin to try and get through to him all along, I think.

    What worked has nothing to do with being a Jedi, it was Padme's sense of duty. So this just shows that Anakin ultimately is the one choosing not learn take his Jedi training truly to heart.

    Anakin has to choose this, he has to choose to learn this, there is nothing Obi-Wan can do to force him to do it.
  17. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Luke was able to resist for many reason, not the least of which is that he was a much more secure person in many ways. He had a normal family, he was loved, but not spoiled by any stretch.. He was much older when he lost his "parents". He was able to let go and move on. While he did grieve, his grief and rage were no where near the maginitude of Anakins. Luke was able to let go of things and move on. He did not strike out, even though he had a need to get even, it was on a totally different level than Anakin. He has his father's skills, but he has his mother's heart. He also has much compassion.

    Luke was able to see more clearly. When he saw his mechanical hand he also recalled the vision at the cave. He realized he was becomming like his father, and could become like him. He was able to step back and see what was happening. If I remember correctly, (my EU is rather shakey) young Anakin had a vison of Darth Maul, (I think it was a cave, but if some one who knows could correct me I 'd be most appreciative) but apparently never realized that his actions were leading him on the dark side path. He did not seem to have the ability to look outside himself and see what his action were doing and where he was headed. Anakin chose to follow the quick and easy way of surrendering to his base emotions. Luke chose the high road.


    He was able to look thru Vader and see something no one else, not even Obi Wan (something I think only one other person, Padme, could see), a small tiny flicker of Anakin.

    He could not, would not believe that his father could not be turned. He was able to prove himself right, not with might, not by his laser skills or even his Jedi abilities, though they certainly helped, but by his emotional connection of a son to his father. He didn't deal with Vader, he reached in to deal with Anakin. He defeated Vader and reached Anakin by NOT fighting. It was when Anakin saw his son in agony that the small flicker started to burn brighter, till it extinquished the darkness of Vader.

    This was the first time in probably his whole life that Anakin was finally reached FINALLY saw what Obi Wan had spent years trying to teach him. What Padme loved so much, what he could have been had he chosen a different path. What he had done to everyone who cared about him. Luke means 'bringer of light" among other things and that is exactly what Luke was.
  18. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Anakin has to choose this, he has to choose to learn this, there is nothing Obi-Wan can do to force him to do it


    I totally Whole heartedly agree!! Only Anakin can ultimatly make that choice, and no one can make it for him.

    My concern is that they keep on training him and having faith, that he will do the right thing, when it is clear he won't. Maybe EP III, will make this more clear. I get the feeling that he is getting to the point where he should almost be on some sort of not suspension but ..what's the word I'm looking for.. probation.. if they have such a thing... Obi Wan is clearly trying and failing.. Anakin has the choice, but .. I dont know.. The transport should be their biggest clue. this guy is a long long way from the maturity needed to be a Knight..
  19. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    This was the first time in probably his whole life that Anakin was finally reached FINALLY saw what Obi Wan had spent years trying to teach him.

    Yes and it was Obi-Wan who taught him that. It was there all along for Anakin but it took Luke's example(Luke was acting as the Jedi Anakin had never truly been) to finally convince Anakin to see it. Anakin had to CHOOSE that. He couldn't have chosen to continue to have his head in the sand, he could have chosen to continue blaming other people for where he was, he could have continued on that path. Anakin chose not to, as he had the choice to choose all long, to take responsibility for himself.
  20. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    We are agreeing and disagreeing at the same time.. to quote Spock 'fascinating'..

    I agree that Anakin made his own destiny but to make things even more lively and intersting? What was it that Luke was able to reach that Obi Wan, Yoda and the rest couldn't? Was it just the fact that Luke was being tortured? I mean at one point Anakin tried to take out Obi Wan (or so we think, untill we all see EPIII:Whatever George calls it, there are a few key pieces still missing from the puzzle), and he clearly cared about him too.

    Dooku was a full fledged Master with many years of exprience before he traded in for a Red Saber. HE was clearly a guy who had his "poop in a group" to put it nicely. Yet for political or what ever reasons Sidious was able to convince him to jump to the Sithly side. Now Anakin is an emotional mess, on the border between adult and child, part of him inside is still that 9 year old boy who can't let go of his mother, who feel resentful of his "father figure", and he is supposed to be able to resist a man who has been measuring him for the suit since the day he met him.

    It is easy to sit back and judge Anakin, especially in light of all the evil we know he does as Vader, but I say we need to put our selves in his boots for a little while and see how they feel. Its a lot easier to see other people problems than it is our own. I think in his place, honestly a lot of us would make some of the very same choices. Remember this is a 20 year old, he has a man's body, but in many ways he is still a boy.. emtionally anyway.. Padme has complete compassion for him, she can see beneath the exterior.. I am trying.... I honestly have a lot of sympathy for the character. I have known (hell lived for 10 years with) and Anakin. And while each of us can only fix ourselves, we have all made some serious mistakes in our lives simply because we are human. We are not perfect, to deny that is too mis part of the bigger picture, that I feel Lucas is showing us. That everyone has the potential (well minus Sids, that guy is 100% evil incarnite, spawn of Satan if ever there was), for good or evil, and sometimes it is truly in the eye of the beholder.

    I am not going to be Anakin's judge, he is an example of humaity and a very important lesson, who makes us see things about ourselves that some of us are very uncomfortable to look at. Too help people requires compassion and the abillity to empathize, not look down your nose at them and think well I would never do that. You don't know how you would react in some situations until you find yourself in it.

    If some one had asked Anakin long before the Tusken incidnet how would he react if.... I seriously doubt his answer would be "Gee I think I'd probably slaughter them all". Maybe it would be, but I don't see it. He knows it is not the Jedi way... When he breaks down with Padme, a name which translates to compassion by the way, it is because he realizes what he is capbable of.. he knows it was wrong... at this point he is not a Sith yet.. and during the Arena when Padme admits his love he is back to a more Jedi like person. When he thinks he has lost Padme we see him revert again.. There is a lot more to the story that we can speculate and guess on, but won't know all the facts untill May 2005..

    Of all the people who have real life experiences with "Anakins" I should be one to hate him, but I can't, and I don't. Understanding and empathizing are not the same as approving of his actions, or absolving him from his behavior. I am one who feels he was redeemed to easy for Gosh sakes... :D
  21. Enigma_X Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 22, 2002
    star 2
    The JQ series makes several things clear. I tend to reference them because they are so well written in terms of characterization and tell the story of the intervening years between TPM and AOTC.

    First of all, Anakin was not a braggart or a willful misfit. JQ, and indeed the other books from that 10 years, indicates that he is well-liked though something of an outsider and regarded by some with either awe (for the incredibly accelerated pace at which he learns Jedi skills) or resentment (as someone who received "special treatment" by getting in so late). He did not "lord" his status as the Chosen One over anyone. Never, in the movies or any of the books written so far, does he even mention that he is the Chosen One, and indeed I wonder if he knows. I can't remember off the top of my head if he was ever present in the JC when they spoke of him being the Chosen One. I'm not entirely sure he wasn't joking about beating Yoda. When Palpatine says that he forsees Anakin becoming as great as Yoda, the book says that Anakin is dazzled by the idea. No one who imagined themselves to already be Yoda's equal would be. Anakin has the tendency to try to rely on his own instincts because that is how he survived for the first nine years of his life. Every person is ultimately responsible for his choices, but that doesn't mean he realizes he has a choice at all ("I *must* obey my master"). He has major trust issues (as anyone who was an abused child does), and that is something else that sets his mother, Qui-Gon and Padme apart: they are the only people he trusts. Which leads to another point...

    Another thing JQ indicates... hell, doesn't even indicate, flat out *states*... is that Anakin and Obi-Wan do not trust one another. They love each other, but it is a complicated, uneasy love due to that lack of trust, which I believe will be instrumental in Anakin's fall. The way that Anakin keeps secrets from Obi-Wan in AOTC is not even remotely surprising, because the books make clear that Anakin kept secrets virtually from the beginning. It also makes clear that Obi-Wan did the same thing, refusing to tell Anakin why certain things were and not being honest about what he thought and felt about people and situations. This is why the character of Qui-Gon was so important. I get aggravated when people say that Qui-Gon was a useless character and that Obi-Wan should have been the one to find Anakin. Ummm... I think they're missing the point. Anyone paying attention to the characterization would know that Obi-Wan would never have sought to bring Anakin back (paraphrase: "why do I get the feeling that you've picked up another pathetic life form?"). This, too, is an important point in the relationship between these two characters. Obi-Wan didn't choose Anakin as padawan (as I said, Anakin believes himself a burden as a result and in internal retaliation resents Obi-Wan), and Anakin did not choose to follow Obi-Wan into this new life. TPM novelization says that Qui-Gon provided the stability Anakin needed to leave his mother, and when he was gone Anakin felt "all alone", "sick in spirit and lost in his heart". And obviously Obi-Wan has his own issues, having lost his master. The memory of Qui-Gon Jinn is eternally between them, from both sides.
  22. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Thank you Enigma,
    you have cleared up some things I felt, but didn't fully understand the source of..

    There are a lot of issues here, and I have already made my point. He is not Vader...YET!! There is more to the puzzle to come.. And he and Obi Wan were a mixed match at best.. Obi Wan even later admits it too Luke, sort of .. "I thought I could be as good of a teacher as Yoda, but I was wrong".. it is clear he knows that he made some mistakes.. but too little too late. And he too gave up on Anakin. The only one's who believed in him, and saw thru his outside protection were all taken from him in one way or another. Qui-Gon got killed, his mother was killed, some speculate that possibliy something may happen to Padme, which I feel would make the boy go nuclear.. The issues between him and Obi Wan are festering and growing... one recipe for Sith Lord being served..

    Falling was his destiny.. he is being set up for it all over... The choice was his, but it was meant to happen... if that makes sense..
  23. Jovieve Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Enigma-X - yes, Anakin is in the Council room with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan when Qui-Gon says, "He is the One, you must see it."

    Anakin does know he's special. His mother encouraged this because she knew he was as well.

    I tried to base everything of my opinion on Anakin on the movies as they are 'canon' and EU is not (as is the vox populai) and JQ is EU. But you are right, in the books, Anakin comes across much more sympathetic. The movies, he does not.
  24. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Hi everyone!

    I discovered this thread just a while back and have been furiously reading! Wonderful post, and really different views of stuff! I have quite a bit to say to a lot of the responses, and some of it is rather "radical". But I am a very poor typist and English is my weak point, so I?ll try to break up my thoughts into several posts.

    First of all, about Anakin?s profound human frailty: this is a really wonderful way of putting his entire situation in a nutshell. Like all mythic heroes, Anakin has enormous powers and a sincere desire to do good things ? become a Jedi and serve humanity ? but Fate/Destiny and his own weaknesses constantly battle those wishes. The Force gives him life with a purpose of its own ? to bring balance. But what exactly is the way in which this balance will be achieved? All we know is the end result ? with Luke?s guiding light, he finally kills Palpatine, comes back to the Light side and thus rids the world of the Sith. His progeny go on to become the founders of the new Jedi order (important to note, NOT HIM). The path Anakin travels to arrive at that end point ? is that what the Force wanted? In my opinion, No. In this post, I?ll try to give my reasons.

    There is nothing in that end result which requires that Anakin had to be trained as a JEDI to bring balance to The Force. The prophecy itself says nothing of the Chosen One being a Jedi ? it is the Jedi Council?s mistake that they decided it was so. IMO (and I may be proved dead wrong by GL in three years), the Force wanted two things of Anakin: to destroy the Emperor and father the future Jedi. And no matter what anyone does, or tries, the Force (Fate/Destiny) single-mindedly pursues this aim. It is not by chance that Anakin lives in a non-Republic world where he could not be discovered by the Jedi as an infant. In TPM, Qui-Gon meets him, is convinced (quite correctly, I think) that he is the Chosen One, but then makes the mistake of thinking that it is the will of the Force that he, QG, was meant to find him ("our meeting was not a coincidence"). What he doesn?t realize, is that by the strangest quirk, the Force brings Ani and PADME face to face. The first thing Ani says in TPM (aside from the Huttese to Watto) is "Are you and angel?" to Padme. Not some excited babble to QG about Jedis etc. Only later, as any adventure-seeking young boy would, he says that he has "always wanted to become a Jedi".

    Unfortunately, this is where Fate starts to turn against Ani. Though a slave, he had a great life on Tatooine, with his adored mother, pod-racing, friends. Then he is freed by QG and can go off to have great adventures but at the most terrible price that he can think off ? leave his mother behind. GL has repeatedly stressed this issue: that a nine-year-old boy is taken away from his mother. This is where, I think, QG, a particularly compassionate Jedi, showed lack of compassion. He is so blinded by the idea that he was meant to find the Chosen One and make him a Jedi, that he is willing to do so at any cost. Thus, he is able to tear Ani from his mother, even though it is clear that this parting is quite traumatic.

    At this point, let?s imagine a different Fate: Ani helps Padme win the hyperdrive from Watto, is freed but stays on at Tatooine with his mother. Padme promises that she will send for him AND his mother and they will come to live on Naboo. This happens sometime later. Anakin grows up into a balanced, wonderful human being, surrounded by love. Not the feared Darth Vader.

    Ok, this is long enough. I?ll continue another time. Please share your thoughts. Should Ani have become a Jedi? Remebering of course, that Jedi are supposed to RISE above human frailty.
  25. IamZam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    What he doesn?t realize, is that by the strangest quirk, the Force brings Ani and PADME face to face. The first thing Ani says in TPM (aside from the Huttese to Watto) is "Are you and angel?" to Padme. Not some excited babble to QG about Jedis etc. Only later, as any adventure-seeking young boy would, he says that he has "always wanted to become a Jedi".

    Unfortunately, this is where Fate starts to turn against Ani. Though a slave, he had a great life on Tatooine, with his adored mother, pod-racing, friends. Then he is freed by QG and can go off to have great adventures but at the most terrible price that he can think off ? leave his mother behind. GL has repeatedly stressed this issue: that a nine-year-old boy is taken away from his mother. This is where, I think, QG, a particularly compassionate Jedi, showed lack of compassion. He is so blinded by the idea that he was meant to find the Chosen One and make him a Jedi, that he is willing to do so at any cost. Thus, he is able to tear Ani from his mother, even though it is clear that this parting is quite traumatic.


    hmm That is a lot to think about.. kind of an AU (Alternate Universe, not to be confused with EU.. where canon debates rage.. won't go there).

    I may have to think about that for awhile. I agree that Ani and Padme were destined to be together, but on the other part of your post my jury is still out.. Interesting to think about though..that would almost Make Luke the chosen one.. and wasn't it part of his destiny to take out Sids and company.. ? hmm much to think about.. brain hurting...

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