Anakin's Redemption?

Hello. Forgive me if this is a repeat topic, but I did a quick scan and didn't see it.

After seeing ROTS, I now view the end of ROTJ in new light. In the OT, Vadar's actions are largely non-personal. Yes he is trying to squash the rebellion, but he mostly kills Imperial types. Even the destruction of Alderaan is not so bad, because we don't know anyone (at the time of ANH) on that planet. So, at the conclusion of ROTJ, I could accept Anakin as redeeming himself. However, the atrocities he commits in ROTS are so heinous (especially against the Jedi), how can killing the Emperor make up for this? To compound matters, his motivation for killing the Emperor was no different than that which made him turn to the Dark Side (fear of loss of a family member). At the end of WWII, if Goebbels killed Hitler to save his own son?s life, does that forgive a lifetime of sins?

Just curious if anyone else is having a problem reconciling this.

DJS

 

The answer to your question was given over 2000 years ago.

Greater love has no man than he give his life for his friend.

Anakin gave his life to save Luke's.

QED

RH

 

At the end of WWII, if Goebbels killed Hitler to save his own son?s life, does that forgive a lifetime of sins?

If Goebbels' son was a kickass space samurai who stood for everything his father was against, yes.

 

Anakin did what no one else could at the end of Return of the Jedi. Yoda wasn't strong enough to kill Palpatine, Obi-Wan wasn't, Mace Windu only came close because the Sith Lord allowed him to, no one but Anakin could've killed him.

I find the transition perfect.
Anakin turns to the dark side as sith lighting blazes, he does so to protect the one he loves.

Anakin returns while sith lighting is blazing and he does so to save his son from certain death.

Full circle.

-Seldon

 

just because the scenes are similar does not mean anakin redeems himself!!!

we must know how anakin comes back as a force ghost for two reasons

1. only qui-gon and then yoda & obi1 actually learn this skill. how does anakin know?

2. does it mean anakin is redeemed, if so, redemption is easy to come by in this galaxy!

 

I didn't say that his redemption comes from it haveing been similar. Simply, I was commenting on the genius of Lucas for making the two scenes so connected.

Obi-Wan vanished in A New Hope. One of his parting words is that his death will gain him power. Vader is obsessed with the pursuit of further power and is puzzled by his master's disapperance. It can be assumed that over the next few years, Vader ponders just how it happened, and just what happened. As somone of his power and skill, it shouldn't be difficult to learn the trick.

Perhaps it isn't a complete redemption, but it is impossible to ignore that there is a redemption,

-Seldon

 

the theory i have concocted in my own mind is that, as qui-gon first retains some identity throgh anakins actions with the tuskens in AOTC, somehow qui-gon instructs anakin how do retain his identity as he dies???

certainly qui-gon & anakin's fates are inter-related

does qui-gon manage to come back as a force ghost?

 

DeadJediSociety I feel the same way. Without really wanting to bring religion into this, as Jew, my religion teaches that murders can only be forgiven by those they killed--so obviously there can be no forgiveness or redemption on this world for murder. Could God/Force reedeem Anakin in Jedi Heaven...maybe but not that quickly. To suggest that a Nazis perpetrator of genocide could be redeemed if he saved his son was a "kickass space samurai who stood for everything his father was against" is morally offensive to a lot of people. It seems unless Anakin and Vader are two separate beings or a split personality odf some kind; that the Star Wars Universe is a place of cheap grace for monsters.

 

What I find more interesting, and I've given this even more thought.
It isn't even so much about him wanting to save a loved one. That may seem like his reasoning, but it isn't. Lets face it, he doesn't love Luke. He doesn't even really know Luke.

Why does he return to light?
It goes back to the unarmed prisoner thing that is explored in Revenge of the Sith. What turns him against Mace Windu is the reason that Windu is attacking an unarmed man and that isn't the Jedi way. Also in an attempt to saved a loved one.

In Return of the Jedi, roles are reverse. Palpatine is attacking Luke (an unarmed prisoner.) It is probably at this point where he fully realizes just how evil Palpatine is.

It goes beyond love for family.
It is the principle of attacking someone who is unarmed. Anakin learns after killing Dooku that it is wrong, terribly wrong and cruel. When he sees Mace Windu about to kill Palpatine, he realizes that the Jedi are mistaken. Finally when Palpatine is doing it, Anakin finally realizes that Palpatine is truly evil.

It makes an excellent cycle.
That realization is part of the redemption.
Not the need to protect a loved one,
the need to protect the unarmed prisoner.

-Seldon

 

Don't get me wrong here. I think the circular nature of the story is brilliant and there seem to be more and more intricacies/theories/interpretations as people peel back the onion layers (good one DS). However, I still have yet to hear a good reason why just because "there is good in him" that all the bad gets washed away. DG - Sorry if my analogy steered the discussion to areas that are offensive, but it is impossible not to draw parallels between The Empire and The Third Reich.

DJS

 

It's a religion thing, not an ethics thing. For it to make sense, you have to believe that forgiveness is an inherant good, and that it supersedes ethical justice.

 

Because the power doing the judging in this case is of them and in them, it's their deity, it's beyond pairs of opposites and thought, it doesn't exist as good and evil and when vader redeems himself, in that selfless way, neither does he, he is removed from the temporal word, thus he becomes one with the energy. Which is basically that which is.

 

DeadJediSociety I'm sorry if you thought I found your comparison offensive. Your right there is a parallel between The Empire and The Third Reich; and I guess that what set me off when I hear people suggest through comparison that Nazis can be forgiven for murders they committed, as a means of demonstrating Anakin "deserves" to be forgiven. The force seems amoral if this is true. At the very least shouldn't Anakin not get instant redemption. Does one just act erase thousands of evil acts?

 

The fact that Luke rejects Palpatines seduction that is almost exactly the same as the one that gets Anakin ( replace Anakins' " wife " with Lukes' " friends " ) makes Anakins' redemption all the more poignant.

 

The force is life energy..it doesn't have morals...it simply is life..life itself doesn't exist in terms of morals or good and evil..it is eternal and transcendant, to bring it into christian terms, this is why adam an eve are thrown out of the garden..and jesus offers you away back in..isn't anyone allowed forgiveness, this is a religious thing. If you don't think he deserves to become one with the force, fine. But lucas does. But when he dies for his sins so to speak and in the way in which he dies lucas says yes.
This belief exists in many theological and mythological representations.

 

Thanks for the interesting and thought provoking replies. However, I think my question is being misunderstood in that I am not asking if Anakin is forgiven by the devine nature of The Force (or even Yoda/OBW), as clearly, in the Star Wars universe he is and (I believe) George Lucas even has referred to it as redemption. What I am asking is can YOU....the Star Wars fan....view Anakin's actions in ROTJ the SAME WAY after watching the events of of ROTS unfold?

DJS

 

His single action does not make up for his life, no.
It may have been a good begining, a cornerstone to base a new life on had he lived, but by itself it doesn't cut it.

I don't see it hapening anyway. The new DVD scene makes it clear that the guy who died on the Death Star II was Darth Vader, not Anakin. There doesn't appear to be any redemption at all now.

 

In keeping with DJS question I can never see Anakin/Vader's saving Luke and killing Palpatine in ROTJ the same after his monsterous acts in ROTS. The only possible way for me to morally accept Lucas saying he was redeemed is if there was some type of split personality--and there is no real suggestion of this.

 

<<does it mean anakin is redeemed, if so, redemption is easy to come by in this galaxy! >>

It would seem so, and here's what really toasts my rolls...

Apparently, if you serve the call of good faithfully throughout your life, you get to spend eternity with a blue identity that's shriveled and old...but hey, massacre a galaxy for a couple of decades, do one good deed, then bang! You get shimmer in your young prime. (According to the special edition ROTJ DVD.) <sigh>

 

Of course, Darth Vader's action to kill the Emperor does not redeem him. It only shows that even the most heinous of criminals may still have an ounce of good in him, but it certainly does not wash away the evil things he has committed. Billions suffered because of Vader, and their lives were no less valuable than that of Luke Skywalker.

I think that GL's intention was to "humanize" Anakin Skywalker in the PT, to make us feel some compassion for the evildoer of the OT. Instead, the PT made Anakin Skywalker look even worse than Darth Vader. After all, Darth Vader killed various disobedient underlings, and various armed rebels, but he did not massacre innocent children like Anakin Skywalker did.

 

it's really an old christian philosophy. Basically, no matter what atrocities you have committed, all it takes for your life to be redeemed is to be truly sorry and realise the error of your ways. Anakin does this and more.

 

Redemption is a heavily weighted word. It can mean many things.

Vader redeemed himself in Luke's eyes, and presumably Obi-Wan's and Yoda (if they helped usher him into their spirit-world, which i don't see any evidence of in the movies but this board seems to accept as fact.)

But I doubt that most would see him as redeemed. Anyone remotely affected by his deeds would have to make that decision on their own.

 

First, for those of you saying Anakin is even more evil in Revenge of the Sith than Darth Vader was, you forget that the good man that was Anakin Skywalker was dead, and it was Darth Vader that slaughtered those younglings. Do not look on the outside and whether or not he had the suit on, but rather who he is truly. While it is true that he did not fully decend into darkness until he learned of Padme's death, and as the Chosen One was justified in killing any Jedi that he did, nevertheless his path began when he submitted to Sidious' will and took the name Vader.

Look at it this way... Christ was forsaken by the Father not when he died, but rather when he took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. In the same way Anakin, while not yet fully decended into darkness, was already forsaken by the Living Force and cut off from the Light.

Now, for my main point. The question has arose, Can one rightous act erase a lifetime of bad deeds. The answer is both yes and no. The problem is that most people look at the question in terms of works rightousness. in that sence, not good deed can ever erase the hidious and permenent stain of sin. No matter how rightous the act, or how small the transgression, sin continues to be an imperfection and an imbalance in the individual. It is not a matter of Good outwaying the Bad on some mystic weighing scale, but rather oneness with the Force or with God, or seperation. it is either the exaltation of the self, or the submition of the will, one or the other, for they cannot coexist.

However, for redemtion only one act is needed: that of repentance. Yet no one, not even Anakin, because of the darkness in him, was capable of doing this by his own power. It was only through the unconditional love and saving grace of Luke was he ressurected from the death that is the Darkness and returned to the Living Force. Through Luke, Anakin destroyed the Darkness once and for all with the one power greater than Death: Love. It is there that the circle is truly complete, for Anakin once again returnes to the Living Force from which he came.

 

First, for those of you saying Anakin is even more evil in Revenge of the Sith than Darth Vader was, you forget that the good man that was Anakin Skywalker was dead, and it was Darth Vader that slaughtered those younglings.

He was more evil even in AOTC, long before he was Darth Vader. I don't recall Vader killing innocent children, as Anakin did in AOTC.

 

First, for those of you saying Anakin is even more evil in Revenge of the Sith than Darth Vader was, you forget that the good man that was Anakin Skywalker was dead, and it was Darth Vader that slaughtered those younglings. Do not look on the outside and whether or not he had the suit on, but rather who he is truly. While it is true that he did not fully decend into darkness until he learned of Padme's death, and as the Chosen One was justified in killing any Jedi that he did, nevertheless his path began when he submitted to Sidious' will and took the name Vader.

Anakin's never truly dead, and that's what makes him such a tragic figure. Vader isn't an entirely different entity, you know that deep down inside Anakin is always there, and the fact that he no longer has the "will", so to speak, to be the good man that he could be makes him all the more tragic.