Saga Anakin's training....why OB1?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by SithLord_1270, Mar 2, 2012.

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  1. SithLord_1270 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2008
    star 3
    Ok, OB1 out of loyalty to Qui-gon is determined to train Anakin(in ANH he says he thought he could do a better job, anyhoo). Of course the council reluctantly agrees to let Anakin b trained.

    But why did they let OB1 train him? He was still a Padawan. Barely out of his training, & even if Qui-Gon thought he was ready for the trials, that didn't mean he was ready to teach someone.

    So, why didn't the Council then say, ok, Anakin will b trained, but we will have a more experienced Knight or Master train him.
  2. MrFantastic74 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2010
    star 4
    I'm baffled by this too. I'm of the opinion that, story-wise, Obi-Wan should have been the one to discover Anakin and insist on training him. Also, Obi-Wan should have been a Knight (or possibly Master) from the start. It would have fit better with the theme of Obi-Wan's personal failure for him to take on Anakin's training against the council's wishes, only to eventually lose his apprentice to the dark side.
  3. Alexrd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2009
    star 5
    No. Due to his feats, he became a Knight. And they've let him train Anakin because he could, and to honor Qui-Gon's dying wish.
  4. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    Obi-Wan Kenobi was one of a select few who had killed a Sith Lord.

    If Anakin will destroy the Sith, shouldn't he be trained by one who experienced combat against a fully fledged Sith Lord?
  5. SithLord_1270 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2008
    star 3
    Not necessarily. He may have had some skill but that doesn't mean he was ready to teach. There is a guy where I used to work that was very good on the job. A LOT of knowledge. Knew the job specs & computer systems inside & out. Yet he was a lousy teacher. Very knitpicky, just could not teach well.

    I think this was the case with OB1 & Anakin. I think he wasn't ready to teach yet. He needed more exp. just bc he killed a Sith Lord doesn't mean he's ready to mentor someone.
  6. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I'm baffled by this too. I'm of the opinion that, story-wise, Obi-Wan should have been the one to discover Anakin and insist on training him. Also, Obi-Wan should have been a Knight (or possibly Master) from the start. It would have fit better with the theme of Obi-Wan's personal failure for him to take on Anakin's training against the council's wishes, only to eventually lose his apprentice to the dark side.


    I don't see how allowing Obi-Wan to be the one who discovered Anakin would improve the story. Especially since he was the one who ended training Anakin, anyway. But the hint of some bad feeling between the two, due to their connection to Qui-Gon made their story a lot more interesting to me.

    And Obi-Wan never claimed that he had discovered Anakin.

    Although the Jedi Council finally decided to admit Anakin into the Order, after his actions during the Battle of Naboo; I suspect they were still leery about dealing with him personally. He was simply too different. Which is probably why they stupidly allow Obi-Wan to become his Jedi master.

    Why not accept the Jedi's decision as one of several bad ones they made, instead of trying to re-work the story in order to make them look good or near perfect?
  7. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    If not Qui-Gon, who would be a better candidate than Obi-Wan?
  8. halibut Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    If they'd been extinct for a "millenia", surely he'd be the only one ;)
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Or so everyone thought. :_|
    FARK2005 likes this.
  10. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    If you're ready to become a Knight, then you're also ready to pass on what you have learned. That's part of what Jedi Knighthood is about.
    Obi-Wan may have chosen to train Anakin out of obligation to Qui-Gon, but that doesn't make him less capable. He did train Anakin to Knighthood, after all. He may not have done a perfect job with it, but I believe that most Jedi Masters would've found Anakin to be quite a handful (and Darth Vader did not happen because of his training. Anakin knew exactly what he was doing when he joined Sidious. It was his choice alone and he made it out of greed. A greed that very few Jedi would've been able to train out of him).





    Knights - they pass things on
    /LM
  11. Thegoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2004
    star 1
    I agree that the Council wanted to keep their distance, but I don't think it was stupid to allow Obi-wan to train him. For one, he was capable. He is strong and wise. He helped settle the conflict at Naboo and defeated a Sith Lord on his own. They also sent Obi-wan to find and fight Grievous when it has been suggested that Mace Windu was the strongest fighter, and Dooku mentions how Yoda always "spoke very highly" of him. Clearly, his competence is not an issue. He was as star pupil Second, this was the first act of "defiance" that Obi-wan had displayed. He followed the will of the Council even when it meant contradicting his master. Anakin would be well versed in Jedi doctrine under Obi-wan, as we see, and the Council could easily monitor and control his training. Also, he may have simply insisted that he be the one to train the boy.

    Third, and most importantly, Obi-wan said he trained Anakin in the original trilogy. :p

    @MrFantastic: Before I watched TPM, if you had told me that Obi-wan wasn't going to be the one who discovered Anakin, I would have thought it made no sense and been in complete agreement with you. Since seeing the film, however, Qui-gon adds so much to the saga thematically that now I couldn't imagine it playing out any other way.
  12. Jedsithor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2005
    star 4
    Here's a question, would anyone else have done any better? Would Yoda have been a better master for Anakin? Consider this. We've seen Yoda train a Jedi. He trained Luke and Luke had as much of an emotional attachment to someone as Anakin did and like Anakin, Luke couldn't let go of those attachments. He ran off to Cloud City to save his friends in spite of Yoda's warnings. Yes, Luke ultimately passed his final test by throwing down his lightsaber, but it was his attachment to his father, his compassion that won the day and even then, it wasn't his compassion that prevented Luke from turning to the Dark Side. It was realising that he was turning into what his father had become.

    So imagine that Yoda trained Anakin for 10 years and one day, Anakin comes across a girl he's thought about all that time. More than that, he senses that his mother is in pain. If Yoda and Anakin stuck together, perhaps Anakin wouldn't have gone to Tatooine, but if Yoda played the Obi-Wan role and went to Kamino, leaving Anakin alone, would anything Yoda had said in the previous 10 years have stopped Anakin from going to his mother? Obi-Wan would have said pretty much the exact same things.

    Ultimately there's only so much you can do. You can pass on knowledge, you can teach the Jedi Code but it doesn't matter if you're Obi-Wan or Yoda or Mace Windu or Qui-Gon Jinn. The student has to make decisions for himself.
    TreborSabreon and Valairy Scot like this.
  13. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Exactly my point.





    Vader - he was Anakin's choice
    /LM
  14. BoromirsFan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2010
    star 4
    I agree somewhat. I feel that the void of Qui-Gon's death created this permanent sense of distance between the two, no matter how close they got.

    Anakin would say "Obi-Wan and the council don't trust me."

    Obi-Wan did, the council didn't. The void could not be repaired.

    I feel Anakin would be more open about Padme and his mother to Qui-Gon. That would ease the whole trust issue between Anakin and his master.
  15. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The fact that Anakin is the only Jedi that Yoda did NOT train throughout his 8-century career is the reason why Anakin fell hard to the Dark Side. If Anakin had been trained and mentored by Yoda like Luke was, then Anakin would never have any reason to go to PalpSidious for support and his corrupting influence. I know someone is going to bring up Yoda's training of Dooku but let me say that the reason he fell to the Dark Side is due to his attachment to Qui-Gon Jinn. His death hit Dooku so hard that he blamed the Jedi not only for sending Qui-Gon to his death but for being ignorant as to dismiss both the corruption in the senate and Qui-Gon's claim that the Sith are back. Yoda's training of Luke may have hit a few bumps but it was successful nonetheless so he could've been successful with Anakin as well if he had the chance.
  16. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    According to the Plagueis novel, Dooku was disgruntled with the Jedi Order looonnng before Qui-Gon died. He was disgruntled before Qui-Gon even reached Mastery. It's possible that Qui-Gon's death was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back, but the seeds for Dooku's departure from the Order were in place well before then.

    Saying that "Dooku would have never left the Order if he hadn't been attached to Qui-Gon/Qui-Gon hadn't died" is grossly oversimplifying the issue--and that's an understatement.

    As far as someone else training Anakin, I could argue that Qui-Gon being alive might have made a difference in Anakin's turn, but I don't know. What Anakin needed was a Jedi Master whom he trusted more than Palpatine, whom he felt accepted and loved him unconditionally, so he would not go to Palpatine for that acceptance that he craved. Anakin felt that he had that unconditional love and acceptance from his mother. And "unconditional love and acceptance" doesn't mean "letting him do whatever the hell he wants"--that's not what we saw regarding how Shmi Skywalker handled Anakin.

    Anakin trusted Qui-Gon in TPM, and had Qui-Gon lived, he may have felt that unconditional love and acceptance from him, and thus Palpatine would have had a much harder time ensnaring him. As far as the rest of the Jedi, Anakin got off on the wrong foot with all of them. It would be very hard to shake that first impression of distrust and condescension that Anakin received in the Council chamber in TPM.

    Should Yoda have trained Anakin? Hell to the no. At least where Obi-Wan and Anakin were different in personality, they somewhat complemented each other, and Obi-Wan made an effort to understand Anakin. Yoda would have done neither.

    The reason he was successful with Luke is because he became less dogmatic and learned to reach Luke where he was.
  17. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Since Anakin went to Yoda for help instead of Obi-wan in ROTS, that showed that Yoda could've made a difference with Anakin's training. Even though Anakin didn't like what Yoda had to say, he still went to him for help.
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, he did, but it's quite a reach to say that proves that Yoda would have been able to train Anakin better than Obi-Wan. Yoda was the senior member of the Jedi Council, and Anakin thought he might have answers regarding prophetic visions/premonitions that Obi-Wan didn't have. And Yoda didn't have any real answers at all.

    According to the ROTS novelization, Anakin planned to go to Obi-Wan after his failed attempt with Yoda, thinking that Obi-Wan would at least listen to him and try to understand as opposed to spouting platitudes at him. He was trying to find the "right words" to tell Obi-Wan in the hopes that Obi-Wan wouldn't suspect anything (of course Obi-Wan knew, and probably should have been straight with Anakin about the fact that he knew, but that's another topic). They were interrupted by Palpatine requesting Anakin's presence.
  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I think other sources had previously explored this, so I suppose Luceno was just being consistent with those sources.
    rumsmuggler likes this.
  20. MasterDillon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2010
    star 2
    You know this is a good point qhy would Obi-Wan train Anakin when Obi himself was still young. My guess is that the Council didn't really want anything to do with Anakin so they gave him to Obi-Wan since he was willing to train him.
  21. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Well, at the end of TPM, Obi-Wan essentially told Yoda that the Council could go **** themselves, that he would train Anakin no matter what they said. And Yoda said that the Council had agreed to let him train Anakin, and he (Yoda) was the only one with reservations.

    I'm assuming that you are right in that the rest of the Council did not want to deal with Anakin, probably because they didn't like him, but that they sensed his powers and thought he was better off trained than untrained.
  22. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    The movie doesn't really support the novelization since it showed Anakin telling Padme flat out that he didn't need Obi-wan's help. Furthermore, Luke didn't like what Yoda had to say either especially when it came to the whole "leave your friends to die" part but that didn't cause Luke to seek guidance from a Sith Lord. That's the main difference between Luke and Anakin which is that PalpSidious wasn't around to influence Luke like he was with Anakin.
  23. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Anakin said that in the novelization as well but still planned to go to Obi-Wan after his conversation with Yoda. The novelization and the films don't contradict each other there; it all depends on whether you take Anakin's "we don't need his help" literally and wholeheartedly. I took it as Anakin's pride getting in the way, his not wanting to admit at that moment that he couldn't handle this on his own.

    Sure, not until the end of ROTJ anyway. But Yoda did take a slightly different approach with Luke, which is part of the reason Luke was receptive. That and his personality was a bit different--he had some of his father in him but he was more like his mother.

    No, but Obi-Wan's ghost was hanging around, and Luke trusted Obi-Wan completely in life, whereas Anakin saw him as purely "by the book" and more loyal to the Order than to Anakin himself. Which, given the difference between PT Obi-Wan and OT Obi-Wan, is at least somewhat of a fair assessment.
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Anakin is most likely conflicted over if he wants Obi-wan to help him or not. They may be on good terms with each other but Anakin hasn't forgotten how Obi-wan helped him the last time with his previous premonition of Shmi. Then, as you pointed out, Palpatine interfered and convinced Anakin to never trust Obi-wan or any other Jedi.
  25. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Yoda hardly did a stellar job with Luke. The kid almost blew everything, in spite of everything he'd learned. Clearly, something was missing in Yoda's method of teaching.





    Kids - they blow things
    /LM
    WIERD_GREEN_MAN likes this.
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