Anakin's turn - this is very weak

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by SithyMcGee, Apr 5, 2005.

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  1. SithyMcGee Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2005
    Well I, like everyone else, has read the book, and I can only hope that the book is awful, because Anakin's turn is a complete joke.

    I really hope the movie makes it more convincing. I hope this author just plain sucks and ruined it. This isn't like reading a Harry Potter book then seeing a film. This book is absolute crap and if you read it then it might ruin the movie for you, so if you haven't read it...DONT. It's horrendous.

    My biggest problem with his turn is WHY he turns. Because he thinks maybe Sidious can teach him how to prevent Padme from dying (because he had a dream about it). Yeah....that's why he turns. I'm not kidding.

    He spends the entire book being a whiny bastard and he cant figure out who's side he should be on. He should spend the entire book trying to figure out why the sides don't trust each other, because I still can't figure out why that is. I know why Palpatine doesn't trust the Jedi. It's to make Anakin not trust them, but sorry, I still don't believe that Anakin would have more loyalty to Palpatine than the Jedi. I wouldn't believe it in a million years. All Anakin wants is some action yet he worships the politician? ******** Lucas. Get a clue.

    I still look forward to the movie, but a LOT LESS than I had before. This movie is going to get ripped apart by critics for Anakin's turn. It's very weak. It's almost funny how stupid he is.



    No profanity.
  2. Saurion-Fett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2001
    star 4
    Welcome to the boards...this point has been brought up by a few members yo may want to try the search .


    Have fun
  3. opiebreakout Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2005
    It's a classic mythilogical theme, he tries to prevent the future only to actually make it happen. His turn and the way it plays out is one of the reasons I like the way the movies shaping up. It's a poetic little peice.
  4. Koto-Ogami Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2003
    star 2
    Why would Anakin be more loyal to the Jedi when, in his mind, its Palpatine who has been more loyal to HIM? Who is the only one that tells him he's any good, and not in the "I'm hard on you because I know you're good and can do better!" Kenobi sense? Its Palpatine.

    I doubt critics will jump on the turn, at least not the ones who actually try to understand it. "To save Padme" is looking at it very superficially, I'm praying like Hell that they look under the surface. Wow I just paraphrased Shake.
  5. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    He kills mace to save palpetines life in order that he may teach anakin to save padame. When that happens, his turned to the darkside with no way back. He chooses padame over the jedi, not palpetine over the jedi, he simply wants to use palpetine but ends up becoming his lap-dog, from what i understand anyway.
  6. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    What is so bad in him turning to try and save Padme? The tragedy is that in trying to save her, he actually kills her. It's brilliant.
    How would you have done it?
  7. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    I agree totally, thats exactly how i was expecting it to play out. Anakin's only weakness is his love for others close to him and his fear of losing them. He took a step toward the dark side when his mother died, and the fear of that happening again to Padame is what will cause him to take an even bigger step to the dark side. I think it's brilliant and the most believable reason for a goo person to go bad.

    Think about how many times there is a crime of passion. A husband kills his wife for having an affair, a wife kills her husband because he splits up with her.
    From love can come bad things when emotion is not controlled, and that is anakins weakness and his downfall.
  8. siniarblade Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2003
    oh dear oh dear,

    lets address some of this as i've read both the script and novel
    :-

    "My biggest problem with his turn is WHY he turns. Because he thinks maybe Sidious can teach him how to prevent Padme from dying (because he had a dream about it). Yeah....that's why he turns. I'm not kidding."

    Um yes, love is a patheic reason for him to turn. I mean no other works of fiction or non fiction have based betrayl on love have they. WAKE UP, its sounds like you hav never been in love. Cause anyone that has been in love understands exactly what we would all do to save the one we love if given the chance. I for one understand exactly why he is doing what he is doing. What better reason is there to risk everything?

    Anakin has been obsessed with Padme since a child and after losing his mother she is everything to him (far more so the the jedi). Once he believes she is going to die and it's is reconfirmed by palpatines contstant comments Anakin only cares about saving his wife. Sure he's and jedi and is part of that order but Padme and child is all that really matters in the end. Yoda was no help when Anakin goes to him just telling Anakin to let go of loved ones and not fear loss. Whereas Palpatine says you can SAVE HER if you learn the dark side (he hangs this carrot over and over again to Anakin).

    When MACE threatens to kill Palps Anakin reacts on pure instinct to protect his wife, the one he loves more than anything. At this point its good night sleep tight. On an impulse he has basically helped murdered Mace - at this moment, at this epoch, this event horizon he choses a side. There is no turning back, The Jedi would either expell him or kill him for this act. He knows its finished and basically gives in to Palpatine and states says ill join you just help me save Padme". Cause thats that is and has always been all that ever matters (he lost his mother..padMe is all he really has left). Anakin is no longer or hasnt been rational for a while, he is paranoid and insecure.

    Anakin/Vader will now follow blindly as Vader always did the the OT. Kill jedi in the Temple - he does it cause he HAS to, because if he is to gain the power he must 1ST cleanse the Temple, killed the separtists etc, follow his masters order (the person who can save Padme for him). He is a grim reaper doing everything to gain the power to save his wife...Jedi friends dont matter..only his love for his wife and child.

    Now surely you can understand that. Love for a partner or child is more powerful than any Jedi order, its more important than anything.

    If you cant understand this then i suggest you find someone to love and put yourself in Anakins place.

    "It's to make Anakin not trust them, but sorry, I still don't believe that Anakin would have more loyalty to Palpatine than the Jedi. I wouldn't believe it in a million years. All Anakin wants is some action yet he worships the politician? Bullshit Lucas. Get a clue."

    Um did you even read the book?? Its all done for Padme - EVERYTHING - he doesnt want to lose her as he lost his mother. Lets name all the works of literature that have tragedy based on love. How stupid of Lucas to base his turn on the fear of losing his wife.

    "I still look forward to the movie, but a LOT LESS than I had before. This movie is going to get ripped apart by critics for Anakin's turn. It's very weak. It's almost funny how stupid he is."

    LOL yer rite. Tell me what better reason to betray the jedi than for the possibility to gain the power to save his wife from certain death. No, the crtics wont rip it apart cause it makes crystal clear sense to anyone that UNDERSTANDS the nature of potential loss of someone you love.

    You really need to get a clue don't ya.

  9. CrixMadine Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2000
    star 1
    I give this Troll 2 out of 5 on the official Madine Troll-o-Meter.

    Must try harder.
  10. Darkside-adept Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Ani sees his mom die in AOTC and others die in ROTS and hes not about to let his wife die in ROTS just like he would not let Luke die in ROTJ! I think its seting that up ^^! But theres more to it then just that!
  11. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Glad other people on here see it my way too, i love the reason for his turn, because it's also the reason for his redemtion. He goes unintentionally bad for his love of padame, and is redeamed to the light side by his love for his son. It's perfect.
  12. Barth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2002
    star 4
    Can somebody post the dialogue of the exact point at which Anakin turns, or point me to it?
  13. wee_jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 21, 2004
    star 1

    'The tragedy is that in trying to save her, he actually kills her. It's brilliant.'

    Jasper, well summed up.

    -

    Going back to basics - Anakin is "Seduced" by the Darkside of the Force. Sometimes I think we forget the basics, but hell its fun talking about this stuff.

    :)


  14. darth_sky_skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2005
    star 2
    jeez, im so happy that some1 with sithymcgees credentials brought this up, anyone with any credibility regarding and knowlage about the subject of love would have just hit this one way over my head...mcgee:
    [ryan dunn] ur an idiot [/ryan dunn]

    tell u what, u give us a better reason, a 'stronger' reason and then just mayb ull redeem this pitiful thread...the balls in ur court champ...
  15. Barth Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2002
    star 4
    There was another thread similar to this one that posted the dialogue of the actual point before Anakin decides to switch to the Sith. I tried to find that thread earlier and couldn't. I really want to read the actual dialogue to see how weak it is, it it is so weak.
  16. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Never gonna happen, there is no better reason for someone with such a good heart to go bad. Anakin is lead by his heart and not his head. He makes irrational decisions, like you do when you're in love, he puts his priorities in the wrong order, like we all do when we love someone, and in the end is seduced into a life of hatred and pain by eventually killing the very person he was trying to save.
  17. Starwars_1977-1983 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 29, 2004
    star 4
    Stating that LOVE is a good reason to do anything and anyone who thinks otherwise just doesn't know anything about love is a bit dumb.

    In ROTS, it raises many problems :

    -Very few people, if any, ever believed in that love story.

    -Anakin slaughtering children for love comes rather abruptly in the script and novel.

    -One thing, that is not a detail, is that Anakin is never lovable. He has been dark and moody since the very beginning of AOTC. He is a psychotic. Why not ? It could be cool. But please don't ask us to take his violence in ROTS as a romantic act of love !

    Might I add that Palpatine :

    -Admits he doesn't have the power to cheat death
    -Keeps being rather negative and manipulative about Padme

    So why Anakin would turn to him so fully just for the love of Padme is just a lil' bit beyond my understanding.

    After Windu's death, the movie goes into lightspeed.
    There should have been a much more cleverly thought out build up to all this.


  18. TheCat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2001
    star 4
    I wouldn't have said it was an act of love. More one of selfishness. Anakin was AFRAID to lose the one he loved most. It was his fear and that alone that drove im to do the things he did. It was just cloaked in his mind as an act of love.
  19. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    "Love is blind"

    You cant see past your own actions when you have become obsessed with preventing events that are out of your hands.

    Enough said.
  20. jvberggren Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2004
    star 4
    i wouldn't say that this is a bad idea at all! that being said, i'm not sure it will have much of an impact on me... of course these things are hard to determine without having seen the actual film.

    personally, i can't understand why anakin chooses the way he does. i guess i just don't understand at this point how he thinks he's helping her by killing someone in her name.

    anakin doesn't see it that way of course.

    i know my girlfriend well enough to know that she wouldn't have wanted that burden. it's almost like killing someone (innocent or not) so you can get his/hers kidneys for your wife that needs a transplant in order to survive. that i could never do...

    as it stands, i think a lot of people don't really understand anakin's choices. what i've found usefull when contemplating this choice is that you throw in all of the other elements that come into play. they tend to be forgotten.

    the dark side, great jedi powers, manipulation, "dark side as a drug", divided loyalties...

    these are important elements which help me understand anakin's choice better... the choice itself isn't enough to understand anakin and his choices. i only hope that lucas succeeds in adding some dimension to anakin's character.

    we must see the conflict in anakin and how he's torn between doing the right thing and letting himself over to the dark side. get that part right and the choice makes perfect sense!


  21. darth_sky_skywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2005
    star 2
    star wars 77-83, r u serious? he slaughters the tuskens out of anger, rage, the love for his mother takes a back seat at that point, he kills them cos he is overcome with dark emotions, sith emotions.

    ^^^^ love is blind is 100% correct, as said ppl who are so enraptured cant see past anything...anakin does this, ITS A POWERFUL REASON, ITS FINE.
  22. Darth-Mule Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2002
    star 4
    Man, you DID see eps I and II didn't you? Were you not paying attention? Don't you remember Anakin yearning for more power, to keep people from dying, and to not fail again? Attentive fans should have figured out the reason he turned after watching AOTC.

    If you didn't see this coming, I'd advise you to stay away from busy roadways.
  23. Donnie_Domino Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2005
    star 1
    // complex and conflicted post... don't bother replying to me unless you read the whole thing. =)

    No matter how poetic it is, the poster is correct.

    Anakin's turn is quite weak.

    I'll enjoy the movie but the relationship between Anakin and Palpatine has always been forced and unbelievable.

    QUI-GON
    Anakin, training to be a Jedi will
    not be a easy challenge. And if you
    succeed, it will be a hard life.

    ANAKIN
    But it's what I want. What I've always
    dreamed about. Can I go, Mom?!

    This while may have just been a "mommy let me go" speech of an 8 year old, it surely doesn't sound like Anakin would drop the idea of become a jedi to befriend an old stiff politician either. I think they made a wise decision in AOTC to stress how much Anakin had faith in Palpatine from the very beginning, or else we would never believe the storyline they are trying to force. It does work, but only because they leave most of the development of their relationship offscreen between Episodes I & II. They have firmly established that Anakin looks up to Palpatine as a wise leader, but they have never attempted to explain how he ever got that close to him in the first place. We make assumptions that they've had many dealings between the Senator and Jedi, and established Anakin as the savior of his home planet (even if by accident), but in the end its weak.

    We see him talking about becoming the most powerful jedi ever, he recognizes that the mistakes he has made are mistakes, "No, I'm a Jedi. I know I'm better than this."

    *sigh*

    Its threads like this that get me down. I'm looking forward to seeing ROTS more than any other movie, perhaps ever. I think it will be the best of the PT, perhaps of the Saga. I think it will make the previous PT movies better by brining attention to smaller (often overlooked or unnoticed) details in the PT. But in the end threads like this make me realize, that while it may all be enjoyable and amazingly great... the overall story of the PT has been poorly written.

    Anakin's turn is weak, but then again... most are. Most people that take a major turn in their life simply snap internally. Its difficult to figure out why they snapped and on the outside it of course always appears weak, but that's how it happens. So that's where I check my complaints in at the door and enjoy the show.

    Edit: I'll go ahead and add that I didn't find his "turn" sudden -- simply weak. I think the progression of Anakin throughout the PT has been wonderful, heck I almost considered him turned in AOTC once he slaughtered the Sandpeople. When I say "weak" I mean that no matter what he has faced in his life (slavery, death of mother, denial of master title) his love for the Jedi, their way of life, and his mentor are obviously great and its "weak" that he'd turn on that based on the words of an old politician (when he doesn't seem to care much for politics anyways). I can see him become a psychopath -- but I can't see why he would turn on the jedi and begin slaughtering them.

    If it was so "wrong" of the jedi to attempt to kill the Sith Lord Sidious (something I might remind you HE wants to do immediately upon finding out that Palpatine is Sidious) why would it be "right" to go kill off all of the jedi.
  24. CMNDR_BACARA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 4, 2005
    star 4
    The Jedi don't trust Palpatine because he keeps giving himself more power over the republic. The way the Council have treated Anakin ever since Qui-gon found him has been stand offish, while Palpatine has been a mentor to him.

    It's actually kind of surprising that Anakin turns Palpatine in at all.
  25. bossk621 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 1999
    star 1
    The story continuously sets up Ani to be loyal to those he loves. He would do anything to save Obi-Wan, to save Padme, even to save R2! This makes perfect sense given what happens to his mom in AOTC. Everyone wonders why TPM portrayed Anakin at such a young age; THIS IS WHY! Fear of loss gives Ani CHARACTER, unlike Luke, who was just an all around good guy for no particular reason. Anakin has depth, a third dimension, something severely lacking in the OT. Given how Vader dies in ROTJ, it seems quite obvious that he will pay any price for his friends.

    Additionally, the jedi characteristic of letting go is well established throughout StarWars:
    Yoda's speech on how fear of loss leads to anger, to hate, to suffering. Yoda outlines Episode III from the get go. We should have seen this coming.
    Ani's attempt to save his mother was obviously detrimental. Its pretty gosh darn clear he should have never gone to Tatooine in AOTC.
    Obi lets go of his own body for the greater good in ANH. It was how it HAD to be.
    Obi and Yoda warn Luke to avoid Bespin. Han and Leia are made to suffer purposely to temp Luke into changing their fait. Vader attacks Luke's feelings the same way he was attacked himself.

    Call it what you will, but it is absurd to consider such a plot point weak. The exact same motive was used in Oedipus the King, Gilgamesh, and even The Bible. Self sacrifice for loved ones. These are mythological themes, and well developed ones at that. I'm sorry you don't like it, but its not as if GL threw us a curve ball here.

    Not to mention it serves a didactic message. Anakin can see into the future, he is gifted that way, but we shouldn't try to change our future! Things happen as they are supposed to. To force your personal will against the inevitable only leads to disaster. His love is a good thing, its the key to his immortality, but his selfish desire to keep Padme alive...to cheat fait...is wrong. Its selfish and greedy. The more he buys into these feelings, the more he becomes ruled by the darkside, and the only thing that can result from that is personal tragedy. Personally I like it, and I thought it was well written in the book.
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