Anakin's turn - this is very weak

everbody wants something

a graphic novel reviewer said it was too complicated(anakins turn)...go figure.

The built in skeptics are almost as strong as the fans.

 

This is the fourth week in a row I have seen a new thread started on this exact topic. Anakin's turn is not cinvincing or comepelling. Just saying "he's in love" is comepltely ridiculous.

Sorry, but troll threads aren't a good measure of whether or not the 'turn' is convincing.

Love justifies murdering children? Betraying everyone you grew up with and leading the charge to murder them all?? That is not love, that is pyschosis!

I agree that Anakin is obviously not rational. We see that in AotC. We see the roots of why he's not rational in TPM (he's a slave forced to participate in dangerous pod races). I don't think anyone has said Anakin is 'sane', only that love, and a fear of loss/change, are the things that turn him into Vader.

I don't get how Anakin gets a pass for all the horrific acts he commits. It's amazing.

It reminds me of Winter's Tale, by Shakespeare. Or Lear. In fiction that deals more with archetypes than realistic characters, the motivations of the characters and resolutions are always more complex when deconstructed. Vader's eventual rehabillitation is problematic. But there's no way he could have been a killer and gotten a 'pass' for it.

After all, look at what he did to poor Captain Antilles.

Ani will know that Palps has been trying to kill Padme for over a decade!

I thought it looked like Nute had been trying to kill her. Not under orders. And Anakin gets his revenge on the Separatist leaders.

Palps has been lying and deceiving everyone for years just to secure power for himself. He even waged a war just for hus own benefit. And used Anakin as a pawn once again to kill Dooku. Why on Earth should he trust this guy?

Palpatine has the great talent of saying just what Anakin wants to hear. He's not trying to work against the grain of Anakin's character like the Jedi are. He tells Anakin that what Anakin feels is right. And, well, power does corrupt.

 

Im going to have to agree with Sithy. It is weak. I think Anakins turn to the darkside is a bit comical as well. I mean would you put a whiner like that on the Jedi council? I sure wouldnt. And what reason does he really have to trust Palpatine in comparison to Obi-Wan his Master. He grew up with Obiwan. spend basically every waking minutes with the guy for like well over ten years. Im supposed to believe that only to "save" Padme he is going to abandon Obi-Wan and C0. only because this guy tells him hes going to be powerful? He already is powerful!!! Oh, and the other thing i find hilarious is that Padme after finding out her husband murdered innocent children, slaughtered to pieces, asks him if they can go away together? lol lol
way to go Lucas another bad script thats 3 for 3.

 

And yet in a blink of an eye he turns back to the good side at the end of ROTJ and that's considered a "classic"?

i don't agree. anakin's turn in ROTS takes a lot away from the ending of ROTJ IMO...i think most people thought anakin's turn would be justified in some way that maybe you could understand where he was coming from...but ROTS just makes him out to be a brainless manaic...how can he be redeemable at this point?

 

Palpatine has the great talent of saying just what Anakin wants to hear. He's not trying to work against the grain of Anakin's character like the Jedi are. He tells Anakin that what Anakin feels is right. And, well, power does corrupt.

Oh Palps is not working against the grain, I mean he is telling lies about his wife and Kenobi creating all kinds of mistrust between Anakin, Obi and Padme.

[i Im supposed to believe that only to "save" Padme he is going to abandon Obi-Wan and C0. only because this guy tells him hes going to be powerful? He already is powerful!!![/i]

Exactly Crumb and not only that Padme gave him the answer ,she basically told him that he didnt need anymore power just being himself would save her and then he goes and sides with Palps anyway?

 

if this story were just after Empire...the same people would be saying my god how brilliant. This is the real comedy of it all.

Is there ever a logical reason to become a mass murderer? geez.

watch out for the walking carpet on your way out.

 

Saving Padme is only one piece of the puzzle. Yes it is the main one, but there is other things that make Anakin turn ;

1) He doesn't trust Jedi anymore, and they don't trust him (FACT). The JEDI FAILED, he doesn't believe they know what is best for him AND the Republic anymore.

2) He has admiration for Palpatine, and agrees with most of his vision (listen to the discussion with PAdme on Naboo when he talks about Dictatorship)

3) He doesn't agree with the Jedi code and counsil. They are flawed (FACT)

All that cheat death talk... Anakin knows Sids TRICKED the JEDI, got to power, without Jedi knowing. That's the proof he needs to believe that Sids and the Darkside are more powerful than any Jedi tricks. Sids had to forseen things, and Anakin want that power for him ; so he could forsee things and prevent bad things to happen (Padme's death).

He doesn't believe the JEDI anymore, and at the same time, he starts to feel his own power growing through the Darkside.

 

Guys, you also have to take into account the way Palpatine paints the Jedi and Sith in this story.

He basically states that the Jedi and Sith are basically the same...wanting more power and if you look at some of these scenes dealing with the Jedi, they do in fact want more power...granted for the right thing, but Palpatine has twisted Anakin's mind so much that Anakin's rationalization is that, "Everyone's out for power in this political game. Why can't I do the same thing?"

There has always been resentment towards the Jedi for Anakin. Yet, he still tries to do the best that he can do. Technically, he has a right to be upset at times. He's a heroic stud at the beginning of the this film. Kenobi kills Maul and they automatically make him a Knight. Anakin kills Dooku and they still slight him. Why?

Also, think about this. They have thrown that Chosen One label in Anakin's face from the very beginning. Anakin's not dumb. If he's the Chosen One, why is he being held back? I know the Order is being cautious but at some point, people can become too protective.

More points. Of course Anakin is going to side with the people who have encouraged him the most...meaning Padme and Palpatine. Unhealthy or not, they have all believed in him. It's interesting to note that during this story, Kenobi believes in him and now starts to side with Anakin in alot of things in the film. Kenobi is a bit different in this film in that he actually has become attached to Anakin in this story.

But then you also have to take into account the nature of the darkside. During Anakin's choice, he doesn't go to Palpatine's office to kill Mace. He just wants to make sure that Palpatine stays alive...hence the reason he states to Mace that Palpatine needs to stand trial. But Mace doesn't see it that way...it's time to kill the Sith Lord. In Anakin's mind, if I don't step in, I basically just stood by and let Mace kill Padme. Not going to happen.

Anakin's choice is a noble one but then the power of the darkside consumes him and it become a quest for power and not about Padme anymore. He askes his wife to join him and together they will overthrow Palpatine. But that's not how this whole thing got started. It was about her more than anything. Now it's about more. More of everything.

Anakin's turn has been brewing since Episode I. You have to take the layers provided in Episodes I and II to totally understand his reasons. And some of the reasons are valid.

 

We have to remember that Palpitine has been mentoring Anakin from time to time since the time period between TPM and AOTC. This is not just an immediate and unexpected conversion, but a gradual seduction that has been going on for over a decade. Anakin's fear of loosing Padme is just the catalyst that finally makes him snap. He does make a conscious choice to turn, but it is also like a psychotic breakdown. He IS stupid. That's the point. He has a lot of head knowledge, but lacks the ability to apply it appropriately. He is intelligent, but lacks wisdom. Wise people do not make decisions on the basis of emotion alone, but dispense their emotions appropriately in the light of objective truth.

 

A boy taken from his mother, a slave, with no father influence is then put into a foster home. He is taught a trade, one outside his natural talents of mechanics. His concepts of right and wrong are rooted in the idea of slavery. He trades one slave system for another. He is not allowed to exercise his gifts as he sees them, but made to develop others that are in his eyes less useful. He forms an alliance as a teenager with a politician, ugh, who ends up lying to him all along. Anakin acts as if he stopped growing emotionally and psychologically when Qui-Gon died. Maybe he did. Looking at him from this angle his decisions make some sense. We expect i think a Chosen One to be perfect. He isnt Christ or Buddha. He is a boy who is deficient on the inside but on the outside a specimen of the ideal. Mayby yoda and the jedi should have developed that part of him instead of the outside skills. Someone who understands about loss and the circle of life, thanks to simba, is more apt to let go of someone than someone like anakin. anakin is a small boy in a grown man's body.

 

-The idea of a pact with the Devil is great.

-The idea to find a way to cheat death is great.

-The fear of loss and death is a good motive.


BUT

*If love was to play such an important part in the prequel story arc, it was Lucas' job, as writer and director to write a believable and touching love story. Which is not the case. When you're that ambitious (the fall of a hero must always be cleverly thought out), you have to be up to the task.

Lucas stupid excuse about starwars movies always being chessy like old tv serials doesn't work here.

The idea was not to find excuses. The idea was to make good movies.


*There was plenty of time in Ep1,2 & 3 to develop characters and plot points more. Lucas made his choice. He made his cut. He hardly hinted at things, didn't care too much for actors and directing, and not even for writing. Many important plot points have been developped in interviews and spin-off books. Ok. But Lucas can't complain now that his prequels are criticized, underestimated and misunderstood.

A trilogy is three films, three acts telling a story. When act 1 & 2 fail, act 3 loses power, no matter how you take it. Act3 has quite a lot to establish. Way too much. Friendship, love, distrust, ... all this could have been built up in Ep1&2, leaving time in Ep3 for a touching and poignant fall.



Just my opinion.

 

what more do you need to know?

 

What about those of us who doesn't think the first two acts are failures?

 

Thank you Pooja.

 

He doesn't trust Jedi anymore, and they don't trust him (FACT).

Well yeah Mace doesnt trust he can be rational when dealing with Palps and guess what he isnt .

He has admiration for Palpatine, and agrees with most of his vision (listen to the discussion with PAdme on Naboo when he talks about Dictatorship)

"Anakin's biggest mistake was believing in Palpatine." George Lucas


All that cheat death talk... Anakin knows Sids TRICKED the JEDI, got to power, without Jedi knowing. That's the proof he needs to believe that Sids and the Darkside are more powerful than any Jedi tricks. Sids had to forseen things, and Anakin want that power for him ; so he could forsee things and prevent bad things to happen (Padme's death).

But Poker thats it there was no trick on the jedi's part, the trick came from Palpatine. He played Anakin and he used Padme as a weapon against him allowing Anakin to self-destruct.

 

What about those of us who doesn't think the first two acts are failures?

then you'd like ROTS no matter how good or bad it is...

 

Indeed, Pooj.

What about those of us who thought the first two Episodes were a roaring success?

And those of us who enjoyed the way the love story played out?


-JR

 

then you'd like ROTS no matter how good or bad it is...

That's typical.

 

What about those of us who doesn't think the first two acts are failures?

See the end of my previous post, Pooja. It reads : just my opinion

Mind you, I don't see TPM as a failure. It's my fav prequel for now. Now, if you think the love story between Anakin and Padme was touching and believable, good for you. I don't. I do not feel anything for Anakin and Padme. I mean, I see them on the screen, but I don't feel close to them. I don't care for them. I don't feel anything for *any* of the prequels characters. To me, these movies are just vaguely descriptive.

I think there are some very good things in the rots script. But I don't care about Anakin. Nor do I care about Padme. And even less about their """love"""; So it lessens the impact of Ep3 for me. See what I mean ?

If you take Palpatine : he was well established in TPM : perfect dialogue, perfect acting, good presence. In AOTC, he's a phantom. Dialogue is not that convincing, he has little if any presence, the acting is not that good.

I regret AOTC failed to build up tension and fully develop all players. I regret it didn't really make us wait for the conclusion. All tension builds in Ep3, and resolves in Ep3, which is short.

 

I know it's just your opinion, and that's just mine. It sucks that you didn't enjoy them as much. No sarcasm included. Just pointing out that those of us who have loved the movies are having an even more exciting time looking forward to this one.

 

Everyone's problem with the Love Story has everything to do with the fact that it's done in a classical sense...and not what we're accustomed to.

Everything in these Prequels are classcial motifs, just set in a sci-fi/fantasy setting. Stylistically they don't go together but Lucas is trying to make that work and I think he's done great with that.

He's not making an adventure story like the Otiginal Trilogy. As Rinzler stated in the Making of Book, the Prequels are a historical drama using classic motifs that usually associated in this type of setting. And the love story falls into that. Forbidden and courtly love.

 

I'm just glad it wasn't something like...

ANAKIN: Master, we need to talk.

OBI-WAN: What troubles you?

ANAKIN: It's Padme. I want to ask her to go to the Galaxies Theater with me but... I think she likes Jeff, and I know Tina has been telling her lies about me.

I'm perfectly content with the sometimes uncomfortable love scenes in Episode II when I think about crap like you see in typical chick flicks.

 

i feel bad for people who have already talked themselves into not liking something.

 

I can see the points that everyone has raised here.

For me, the beleif, the investment in the character comes from really having feeling for them.

I see a few similarities between Willow (Buffy) and Anakin, as both began as very good people but got sidetracked by other issues.

Yes, Joss had a television series in which to explore Willow's psyche, which a film just doesn't have the time to do, but the themes are familiar.

My implied point is I don't beleive in Padme and Anakin's love - it has not made me feel for them, or convinced me in any way that it is "real".

Certainly I beleived in the relationship between Willow and Terra, and had real feeling for them, and this for me is why I really felt for Willow's loss.

I don't think that the reason Anakin turns is weak, but I do think the demonstration of how quickly and powerfully the Dark Side can take hold has been underdone.

I am not saying this is how it should be, or that anyone "failed", or that anyone is wrong. I am just stating my reasons for my feelings.

 

Well I like the fact that he becomes exactly what he was trying to destroy, and how he kills Padme instead of protecting her. That is fine.

The fundamental problem existed way before ROTS was made...and a crucial part of that mistake is AOTC. ROTS is rushed somewhat (in regards to Anakin's turn), and the moment he pledges his allegiance to Palps IS RUSHED. Its too quick.

And its still hard to believe that Anakin would then kill innocent Jedi and Jedi children immediately after that moment...I mean one moment he is conflicted on what he did to Mace and a blink of an eye later he swears his oath to the Sith and starts killing people in cold blood...like he is a psychopath and that is who he has been for a long time. The fact is...its not who he was for a long time. And what Lucas could have done was have Anakin instead just start killing and invading the Council...killing those Jedi. Anakin has a real beef with them (at least more believable) and Palps on the side could have ordered the troops to invade the temple for the children and no-name brand Jedi. This would be more believable since Anakin believed the council never liked him and wanted him, and it would translate to better action visually. Imagine Anakin going head to head with Plo Koon for example. Much better that way. Instead, Anakin will be shown marching into a Temple, and the action will be offscreen. In addition, he doesnt kill anyone of real signifcance...its something, but not as challanging as invading the council itself. Thats my opinion of course.

The result (him being a cold blooded killer) was needed...ala Vader...but the transition is piss poor.

The main point of the PT was to show how and why Anakin turned. In the end...Lucas didnt do a good job.

If its translated better onscreen, then I am wrong. But this is SW and Lucas...on screen will be worse because all he wants to focus on is the CGI.