Anakin's turn - this is very weak

Well yeah Mace doesnt trust he can be rational when dealing with Palps and guess what he isnt .

"Its a thing I know I cannot do" - Anakin

JEDI are "rational", but they still FAIL. Even then, Mace will stop acting rational when he will decide to kill Sids ; That's all Anakin needs to completely stop believing in the Jedi order. They think their code and way of life is rational, but in fact in is not ; that's why they fail.

Anakin is just a tool that ended up being the personification of the Jedi's failure.

 

Well, 1977-1983, I can tell, is looking forward to Episode III, and at least likes Episode I. So, I don't consider him as someone who has talked himself into not liking something. But do these people exist? Yep. They're always closeby.

 

i guess killing them all "THE WOMEN AND THE CHILDREN" doesn't mean anything.

Do we need to be batted over the head for it to sink in.

 

And its still hard to believe that Anakin would then kill innocent Jedi and Jedi children immediately after that moment...I mean one moment he is conflicted on what he did to Mace and a blink of an eye later he swears his oath to the Sith and starts killing people in cold blood...like he is a psychopath and that is who he has been for a long time. The fact is...its not who he was for a long time.

Tusken massacre, AOTC. I'd say he has been a psycho for quite some time before ROTS.

 

Anakin is just a tool that ended up being the personification of the Jedi's failure.

No Anakin became a tool because he wanted to and it is the personification of his own failure. "It Anakin's inabilty to control his temper, his greed, his need to control things that will lead to his downfall." George Lucas

Mace will stop acting rational when he will decide to kill Sids ; That's all Anakin needs to completely stop believing in the Jedi order. They think their code and way of life is rational, but in fact in is not ; that's why they fail.

Oh its not then why does Vader kill Sidious many years later in ROTJ and comes back a jedi.

 

i guess killing them all "THE WOMEN AND THE CHILDREN" doesn't mean anything.

but that's different...it was somewhat justified since they just murdered his mom and for a moment he blew up.

if GL wanted to mirror this he should have had padme die early in the movie and have anakin think the jedi were responsible...that would give anakin a perfect reason to march into the temple and raise hell...what doesn't make sense is the fact that he does all this cold blood killing ONLY because sidious told him too...

 

Anakin decided the only way to save paddy would be to control Everything. He knew what he was doing when he became palps boy. He did what he thought was best.

 

I still don't see Anakin's turn as weak. Obviously, there are many reasons for it, the primary one being his love for Padme. But, as has been said already, there's also the fact that Palpatine has been an influence on Anakin for all of his Jedi life. Palpatine even gets Anakin a seat on the council, apparently.

I see Anakin's turn has two major aspects to it. One part is that he is turning TO the Sith teachings in an attempt to gain the power that he has always sought (which he discusses a few times in AotC). The other side is that he is turning AWAY from the teachings of the Jedi. They are holding him back, and seem to be betraying him. They don't make him a Master. They try to arrest Palpatine, one of Anakin's few friends and, he believes, the only politician worthy to trust and rule (again, see AotC).

 

In fact I think EpIII maybe a dream come true.

What disapointed me a bit was the TP clips. It reminded me of how it was like to watch Hayden and Portman act

But I'll get over it. There'll be much to enjoy.

Let's just hope Lucas' editing will be good. Cut what should be cut, leave what should be left. Tell the story !

 

The only TP scene that sort of threw me was the way Hayden delivers his "My powers have doubled since last time, Count." I just found it really awkward, like he was trying to act tough but didn't believe it, himself.

 

They try to arrest Palpatine, one of Anakin's few friends and, he believes, the only politician worthy to trust and rule (again, see AotC).

but anakin himself turns him in!! and a scene before that he's ready to KILL palpatine himself!!

anakin finds out the man he trusts(palpatine) does not exist...it's all been a facade. at the point he pledges allegiance to sidious he has NO reason to trust him and EVERY reason to hate him...

 

Lucas has all the ingredents in this script for a compelling, exciting, and tragic story. Now it all comes down to tone and execution.

I'm one of those guys that thinks Attack of the Clones is more engaging than The Empire Strikes Back and reading this script validated alot of idea and thoughts I had about the direction Lucas was headed.

And, I think he's got it down. The think the acting will be fine (I didn't see a problem with it in the previous films but in maybe one or two spots)..so I'm going to have a sweet time in the theatre come May 19th.

 

but anakin himself turns him in!! and a scene before that he's ready to KILL palpatine himself!!

Then Anakin sees what Jedi justice is really like. The Jedi prove, by threatening Palpatine, that they are not 'fit' to rule. Anakin's already told the audience what he respects and desires in a ruler. Power enough to enforce the will of the ruler, and wisdom.

Well, Palpatine certainly is powerful. Just ask Kit's head. And Palpatine is wise enough to say exactly what Anakin wants to hear. So... it makes sense that Anakin would support Palpatine when he's forced to make a real life-or-death decision.

 

My biggest problem with his turn is WHY he turns. Because he thinks maybe Sidious can teach him how to prevent Padme from dying (because he had a dream about it). Yeah....that's why he turns. I'm not kidding.

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I don't see any problems with that. What would you do in his situation for someone you loved so much?

What's more dramatic is that he chooses to turn, thinking that Padme can be saved, when basically...she can't! He was tricked, it's all a nasty ride for Anakin.

 

this is a bit off topic, but it's interesting to see how tpm actually contributes or adds to anakin's character which sheds some light as to why he thinks of the sandpeople as animals...

in aotc he justifies killing the sandpeople because they're animals. that's not just a result of them killing his mother (granted it's the main reason)...

if you think back to the pod race, the tuskens don't really give anakin any reason to think otherwise. they did in fact (for no reason what so ever) try to shoot him.

not saying this is an excuse, but it certainly adds some dimension to anakin's psyche...

what i'm trying to say is that there are a lot of factors and elements that lead up to anakin's transformation into vader. it's not just a choice!

 

Then Anakin sees what Jedi justice is really like. The Jedi prove, by threatening Palpatine, that they are not 'fit' to rule.

Well didnt Anakin have the chance to kill Palpatine, didnt he say I should kill you.

Anakin's already told the audience what he respects and desires in a ruler. Power enough to enforce the will of the ruler, and wisdom.

Then if that is the case why is Anakin trying to convince Padme that both of them can be rulers of the galaxy.

Well, Palpatine certainly is powerful. Just ask Kit's head. And Palpatine is wise enough to say exactly what Anakin wants to hear. So... it makes sense that Anakin would support Palpatine when he's forced to make a real life-or-death decision.[/i]

Even at the expense of his wife's happiness. Didnt she basically tell Anakin that love and himself would be enough to save her. So he sides with Palps anyway? Was he not listening to Padme?

 

"Tusken massacre, AOTC. I'd say he has been a psycho for quite some time before ROTS."

They were DIRECTLY responsible for her death. If they did that to my mom, I'd wipe em out as well.

The fact that he regretted his actions shows he is not a psychopath.

So I have no idea how you interpret Anakin is a murdering, unstable psycho.

Anakin's actions in EpIII will be a choice. Windu is an exception because it was in the heat of the moment trying to protect Palps so he can get the answers about cheating death from him. And Anakin just chopped his hand off. Palps killed Mace. Period.

Then Anakin regrets what he did, is confused. Then in a blink of an eye swears allegiance to Palps and goes on a rampage??!?! WTF? Makes absolutely no sense.

From the screenplay, there is no real explanation on why Anakin thinks the ENTIRE Jedi order is corrupt.

As I said before, I can see him having a beef with the Jedi council and Obi-Wan. They could have been indirectly responsible for Padme's death...their ideals and strict laws provented him from saving her and she died...as a hypothetical what-if example. Then Anakin could have gone off and wiped off the council for vengence. Obi vs Anakin happens, and as a RESULT of his injuries, Vader is then born. THEN, he hates the Jedi...relates the Jedi ways to his injuries so he goes off on the purge.

This way would have worked better.

I still dont see how Anakin hates ALL the Jedi just like that. Its not justified. His turn doesnt work as it stands from the screenplay.

 

Love can make you do some stupid *@!) man!

I'd murder for my lady. Even little kids who get in the way. Well maybe not little kids, but I'd definitely hurt someone if my wife was in trouble.

 

why would anakin think murdering all his jedi buddies would help padme and in any way?

 

I think it would've been better had Anakin fought with Mace and killed him himself, instead of just disabling Mace and letting Palp finish him.

The whole scene is just kind of...odd.

I have a bad feeling that the general public (and definitely critics) are not going to buy the transition.

 

At that point he's just following orders from Palps. Maybe he was so deseparate to learn the power of the dark side and what it could offer him personally, that it extremely clouded his judgement. Besides, Anakin is intelligent to a degree but he isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer by no means.

 

Anakin killing his Jedi buddies is his first empowerment as a Sith. Palps makes him believe that they have witheld a lot from Anakin, and he buys into it like a bad stock deal.

 

The issue with Palps and the Jedi by the temple scene is he thinks they are both corrupt, Palps with his manipulations, and the Jedi with thier attempted overthrow of the legitimate ruler of the Republic. It looks like they are both grasping for power, and to keep the power they already have. He kills the Jedi, and he is plotting to kill Palps once the hard work of building the Empire is done and hes learned what he needs. At this point, he doesnt like either side, he's simply decided he has to get rid of the Jedi first, and he'll deal with Sidious at a more convenient moment in the future.

Heres a quote by GL, so at least its obvious that he is also aware of this problem

Some of the issues that make Anakin turn are very subtle, and easily missed if the audience is not paying attention- hes aware of this, and it did worry him, but in the end he didnt want to go back and dumb it down so to speak

Gonna make me do so much typing!

"Earlier this week, after showing the first rought cut to a sleect group from ILM, Lucas decided to show it to Steven Speilberg and Jeff Nathanson, the screenwriter of the former's last film, The Terminal (2004). "Steven saw the rough cut," Lucas says, sitting at home at a table in his kitchen. "I felt I needed to show it to Steven to figure out waht the reality was, because we'd earlier had a rough-cut screening for ILM to test the film, and some of the people had strong opinions about things that were contrary to the way I was going. Some people were having a hard time with the reason that Anakin goes bad. Somebody asked whether somebody could kill Anakin's best friend, so that he really gets angry. They wanted a real betrayal, such as, "You tried to kill me so now I'm going to try to kill you." They didn't understand the fact that Anakin is simply greedy. There is no revenge. The revenge of the Sith is Palpatine. It doesn't have much to do with Darth Vader; he's a pawn in the whole scheme.
"But then there were larger issues. So I had to ask myself, What was I trying to say and didn't I say it? Did it just get missed or is it not there? I had to look at it very hard. I had to ask myself, Is this how the audience is going to react? Fortunately, Steven confirmed that most of everything was working. So, I may lose a certain demographic- maybe, maybe not. But I had to make a decision, and I decided that I'm not going to alter the film to make it more commercial or more marketable. I have to be true to my vision, which is thirty years old, but I have to be true to it."

 

Thanks

 

It's really quite simple: Anakin doesn't trust Palpatine, either!

What he's doing is using Palpatine's forces to wipe out the Jedi, then as soon as Palpatine consolidates his power, he's going to learn whatever Palpatine knows then take him out too.

This is what nearly does Luke in, too. In ROTJ, once Vader's out of the way, all Luke has to do is fight the Emperor, but he knows he's not powerful enough yet so he'll have to become his apprentice until he is powerful enough to kill him.

The problem is, Palpatine's too smart and always stays 10 steps ahead of his Apprentices. He's very well aware that they think he has some secret knowledge, so he uses that to his advantage. It's the carrot being dangled in front of their faces. Dooku thought he could kill Palpatine, too, and probably also Maul.

The idea here is that Anakin doesn't trust the Jedi, and he's determined to find out the truth of all this, but in the end all that matters is saving Padme. The Jedi won't help him save Padme, so they're out of the picture in Anakin's book. If Palpatine won't help him, he'll take him out too.

By the end of it all, though, Obi-Wan strips Anakin of his powers and he can't kill Palpatine anymore, so Anakin has no choice but to lose all hope in himself and serve the Emperor.