Anakin's turn - this is very weak

No one ever complains about Michael Corleone's sudden turn to evil and the murder of the heads of families all at once. Instead it's one of the greatest movies ever made.

 

Funny enough, he turns for love, he slaughters Jedi for a completely different reason that people love to overlook to bash it (and what even gushers seem to forget when back flipping to explain it).

He joins the Darkside for Love. He slaughters the Jedi out of fear. Joining the Darkside and the purge aren't totally connected.

All this time, Anakin has been told by Palpatine that not only do the Jedi not trust him (and Mace is a complete jerk in this one, giving him good reason to believe Palpatine), but they're trying to take over the Republic. They're using Anakin as a spy. They're not including him in their deeper plans Palpatine says.
He goes to the office. Sees Mace in the act, and helps Palpatine kill him.
Oh crap. The Jedi are planning a revolt and these two just killed a big BIG cheese. Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi will kill them if Anakin doesn't kill them first.
Anakin is also extremely keen on the Republic, and even more keen on his new Empire.
'Every single Jedi is now an enemy...'

All that, has nothing to do with Love or his turn. It has to do with:
1: Oh crap.
2. They're traitors.
3. If they're not with us, they're against us.

He joins the Darkside to learn the power to save Padme. He kills the Jedi as a neccessary evil (and I doubt he sheds any tears). When he finds out he no longer needs Palpatine, he immediately plots to kill him. He get's locked in a suit and his plans burn away until Luke shows up. While out of his ****ing mind thanks to the Darkside, he kills Padme.

It's nowhere near as cut and dry as people like to think it is.

 

Those of you that are not buying into this need toi understand the nature of tragedy. It's like a Shakespherian Tragedy, and infact its like a Greek Tragedy.

shakespear? you have got to be kidding me...

just answer me this: why doesn't anakin flip out when sidious tells him that he really never knew how to stop people from dying? at that point, why would he want to be his apprentice??

 

i feel pretty confident that when people see the film, they will also think this makes a lot more sense... they will probably feel for anakin as well. there's so much that the camera can do which the novel cannot...

even up til this day i still feel for anakin in rotj after he's done his act of sacrifice. i don't really find myself thinking: "i'm glad you died! you deserved it your murdering bastard".

 

My problem isn't so much the reason Anakin turns, its just the believability of the moment. Its like someone flips a switch and presto chango, he's evil.

Throughout the book Anakin hesitates and expresses his conflict whenever he is at a crossroads. He does this before beheading Dooku. He does this when he questions Padme about Obi?s visit (and then apologizes), and he even expresses doubt and remorse after lopping off Maces hand and witnesses his death. It?s a ?what have I done?? moment. Yet just a few seconds later he is on bended knee taking the name Vader and then preparing to run off and kill children. One minute he loves his best friend and is worried about him leaving for Utapau by himself, and the next minute he hates his guts and lumps him in with the other Jedi who must die. Many have said that he really has no choice at this point. I don't buy that. I realize that he has to answer for what he has done to Mace, but his action was not premeditated. He was actually acting like a Jedi, preventing Mace from killing someone in cold blood who appeared to have surrendered. Mace had already touched on the fact that he might just have to do such a thing earlier in the book when he was meeting with Obi-Wan and Yoda. Yoda didn?t even want to talk about a Jedi doing such a thing. So Anakin would have been in the right for doing what he did to Mace by Jedi standards. I think it is a big jump to go from protecting an enemy who has surrendered, to a few minutes later slaughtering innocent children without hesitation or remorse. As a matter of fact, in The Makeing of ROTS book Lucas mentions that Anakin actually smiles when he enters the room with the younglings. How does he change so quickly? There's no Sith ritual where he is suddenly "possessed" by the Dark Side, no Dark Side pills,... nothing. He just goes from being a good guy to instantly being a really really evil guy. And he's not killing kids in a uncontrolled rage as he did in Clones. He's actually enjoying the killing of these kids only moments after reluctantly disabling Mace to save the bastard who has some information he needs.

Tough sell for me.

 

just answer me this: why doesn't anakin flip out when sidious tells him that he really never knew how to stop people from dying? at that point, why would he want to be his apprentice??


Because he's already in too deep by that point. Also, he wants Palpatine to do the dirty work of unifying the galaxy, after which Anakin can betray him and take everything for himself. It's a pretty awesome reason to go along for a short while longer, IMO. The Sith have worked for a thousand years to realize this plan, and now Anakin can simply have it on a silver platter. He assumes that he'll get his revenge on Palpatine soon enough.

 

Does Palpatine ever tell Anakin that he doesn't have the power? In a way he proves he DOES have the power by keeping Vader alive as a machine. And by the time Anakin is in the suit, he can't turn on Sidious, because that means letting go of his hate, which he is afraid to do.

And yes, you look back at any classic tragedy and most of them will involve the protagonist being tempted by the "devil." type figure, with a power or stregnth they wouldn't have had before. But in the process they sell their sole. This is 100% the stuff of classic literature.

 

It would have been better if he built up to a point of pure hate and anger then thrown over that point by a single event. Something like Padame dying and it appearing to be at the Jedi's requests or direct involvment.

After his mother dies, it appears that Lucas was setting us up for something like that...but NOOOOOOO. It will end up being some lame thing like..as in the spoilers...he is just a spoilt brat...who is gonna throw a temper tantrum against the Jedi out of Spite.

Think Anakin will say.. :If you don't let me on the Jedi Council, I'll... I'll hold my breath!!!!!" Waaaaaahhhhhh (Kicking and throwing himself on the floor).

 

I've been reading the novel and after anakin kills Mace he says to Palpy that he wants his knowledge about saving someone from death and Palpy replies :

"That power only my master truly achieved, but together we will find it."

UH! Hello! I fully expected Anakin to go -- " er ... so you don't actually know how to save Padme ? ..... er ... "

It's ridiculous, and then it gets more ridiculous -- Anakin cheerfully becomes his apprentice and goes and kills all the jedi and the children .

Is this guy dumb or what ?

I thought it was really good, actually. Think back (or forward) to this line from RotJ:

"Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now strike him down and take your father's place at my side." Emperor to Luke, RotJ.

It's interesting that the Emperor said that Luke should take Vader's place at his side. to quote you, "Is that guy dumb or what"? Luke wouldn't join the Emperor. Luke knows that the Emperor has just set a trap to kill ALL of his friends. The Emperor's line makes no sense...or does it. The fact is that the Emperor was not suggesting to Luke what he should do, but he was TELLING Luke what was going to happen. Luke would have killed Vader and in doing so, he would have been joined with Sidious BY HIS ACTIONS. The INSTANT he killed Vader, a switch would have flipped and he would have joined the darkside.

With that in mind, look at the entire scene with Anakin, Mace and Palpatine again. Anakin INTERFERED with Mace and did what Luke didn't do in RotJ. It was this action of using the dark side to interfere with events that literally BOUND Anakin to Sidious. The instant he cut off Mace's hand, a switch inside him was flipped and he was joined the dark side. The book makes it quite clear. He says "What have I done" and doesn't recognize his voice because his own conciousness is being drowned out by the growing dark side. He has now crossed the line and is now Darth Vader. If Luke were to have killed Vader on the DS2, he would have been bound to Sidious as well. As Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, will it dominate your destiny." Anakin kills younglings. Anakin slaughters Jedi. Why? Because he was seduced by the dark side of the force. In his efforts to try and save Padme, he ends up having an "affair" with the dark side. All Anakin hears from this moment on is the sweet seductive voice of the dark side sweetly saying "You've tasted my power, now feed off me, Anakin, and you will get what you want."

During all the spoilers, I initially thought that Anakin's turn was quite lame as well. after reading the book, I was quite impressed and Matt Stover did a great job of showing what Anakin was going through and how his one decision of killing Mace sealed his fate to the darkside.

 

It?s a ?what have I done?? moment. Yet just a few seconds later he is on bended knee taking the name Vader and then preparing to run off and kill children.

i have to admit... that has got me worried too. i don't feel that it's right to leave it in the hands of the audience to make sense of what happens there inside anakin's head. nor do i think lucas will leave it that "unexplained"... how he'll try to "justify" that transition is beyond me at this point, but i think he'll try to shed some more light on it...

 

I agree with the poster that Anakin's turn is a little weak. It is very different that the motives I imagined as a kid. I will not read the book, but I hope that Anakin's turn comes across convincing in the movie.

 

People say that Anakin "suddenly" turns in the Mace scene, but forget that this moment has been building for a LONG time. It's been building since Anakin glared at Mace, as he stood next to Qui-Gon. Its been building since Anakin slaughtered the Tuskens and Dooku. It's been building while Palpatine has been playing Anakin for the past 13 years. People are missing Palpatine in all of this. They are missing that he is the great manipulator and has been pushing Anakins buttons from the very beginning.

 

Does Palpatine ever tell Anakin that he doesn't have the power?

this is palps reply to anakin wanting to learn the power after mace windu goes out the windu:

"That power only my master truly achieved, but together we will find it."

 

G-Fett

I dont think anyone here is arguing that it isnt like a Greek tragedy.

Its downright obvious.

Its just not done very well. The only thing that is done well is that Anakin was the one who ended up destroying Padme, and he was encased in the suit so he couldnt kill Palps without dying himself. That was done well.

But the second part of that I have known ever since GL mentioned the rule of two sith back in '99.

The blink of an eye acceptance of the Sith ways to Anakin is what I have an issue with.

 

If I was Anakin I would want to kill him on the spot, but on the other hand, if he just waits a little longer, he gets the last laugh. Plus, like Sidious, he probably believes that they will inevitably find the power with a little effort.

 

I posted this in another thread but it appears to work here, too. Most SW fans are ALL wrapped up in the literal when the story is mythical and therefore exaggerated. Stand back and look at the character from a literary standpoint. Don't get all wrapped up in the details, there is sound in space in these films.

Anakin is a classic tragic hero in the mythological concept, and that is fact. Everything else is conjecture. Everyone is entitled to feel the way they want about the character's personality and actions, I certainly could care less. But the purpose of his character has been alluded to more times than one cares to mention by his creator, George Lucas. No matter how you feel about his justification or lack thereof, he is still a classic tragic hero. You cannot look at things in black and white or in real world comparisons in fantasy/myth. The story is exaggerated on purpose, by design. It's myth. If you can't understand that, no one on here can make you see. It's not going to happen. You have to get past any character bias or literal views and look at what the concepts of the story are trying to tell, but don't use real world comparisons.

EDIT in response to GFETT - In the novel, Obi-Wan even tells Mace and Yoda that having Anakin spy on the Chancellor is wrong and he feels they have just lost his trust (and respect and loyalty). Obi-Wan is the only one in the living force at this point and can see that the Jedi might have just crossed the line. Yoda and Mace continue on with the "Jedi do this" and "Jedi don't do that" party line, but the last sentence in the chapter is Obi-Wan saying that he doesn't blame Anakin for feeling the way he does about the Council. I think Obi-Wan just got his eyes opened there a little bit. Yoda doesn't figure out how things could have been done a little differently until the end, and poor Mace never gets the chance to figure it out. At this point, everyone has made their mistakes and the path is set for destruction. From Anakin to the Jedi.

 

rhonderoo, what does that have to do with anakin's turn being effective or not?

 

I think people just want someone that they can relate to more easily. For example, I find the character of Al Simmons in the Spawn animated series far more sympathetic and relatable than Anakin (with all the same mythical elements and essentially the same story -- guy sells soul for wife), who mostly is annoying to me. I'm looking forward to him turning, simply because he then becomes the methodical killing machine I expected. Vader is far more interesting to me than Anakin, who lacks any charm. I think this is what is irking people.

 

He makes an initial choice, but at that point HE IS NOT COMPLETELY COLD.

Per page 82 of "The Making of Revenge of the Sith"; also, he tells Hayden to not be so monotone during the Padme scene after the massacre; he states that "Anakin does not become completely numb until he tells his best friend he hates him". Right now, he has made a decision but is wrestling with whether or not it is the right one.

On Mustufar, Hayden wanted to play it a little more reflective on the horrible things he has done, but Lucas says this is Anakin's moment: he has the power to save Padme, life is wonderful. He goes on to say Anakin has the rest of his life to reflect on the horrible things he has done, but in this moment hhe is almost pridefull that he has acheived his goal.

It is a progression to becoming "numb", to becoming a living "zombie"...people don't see that.

Hayden's performance will bring that.

If people were to think of it in this sense, they would feel it wasn't so "rushed".

 

rhonderoo is on a churchly mission to convince all fans that the transition was done well .I think he thinks we are all anakins and accept his sith ways without questioning .Or was that a classic reference

 

"That power only my master truly achieved, but together we will find it."

Thanks, I hadn't got to that part of the book, yet.

Here's a couple of point. Sidious is still dangling it in front of Anakin-Even though he isn't sure how to master the power himself, he is still leaving the possibility open that the Sith have that power and "Together" we will work to save Padme.

Anakin will be planning to destory Sidious and rule with Padme, but not until they have managed to master the eternal life power.

 

yeah okay I can agree with that but why does he have to slaughter all younglings.Is it because they are smarter then he is or doesn't he think the mind of a child can help him solve the mystery?hehe at least he doesn't think sidious is playing with his balls .bravo

 

Well I, like everyone else, has read the book, and I can only hope that the book is awful, because Anakin's turn is a complete joke.

Hi, sock.

If his turn is a joke, then his turn back must be a joke too, because it was love for his son that made him reject the Dark Side in the end and kill Palps.

 

Why would Anakin want to kill Palpatine?
He's building an Empire for Anakin and doesn't know it
Whoops! Along comes Kenobi...

 

First of all rhonderoo is a "she". And I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything except don't take every single minute of this film so literal and you will enjoy it much more. You're trying to make this into a movie about minute details and it isn't. If you still can't get it, you're on your own. I got it. My point is - it isn't literal. Anakin's fall has been set up since he looked at Mace like he did when Mace was an ass in TPM, then you pile on all other kinds of things that I certainly will not go into for lack of time or the inclination. If you were looking for a 2 minute scene of anykind to do this stuff for you, you wouldn't be happy anyway. Read the Making of book. George pretty much says "if you don't get it, tough - fanboys."

What's great is that the Skywalkers do end up with the Empire/Galaxy, so to speak after Anakin kills Sids. It's really pretty poetic.