Anakin's turn - this is very weak

I agree with what you guys are saying, but I think everything is so far spelled out, that is seems somewhat forced. We know Anakin has turned when he says he "pledges" himself, after that, if we were to cut straight to the Jedi purge, the emotional impact of his turn would still be there. As it is, the scene kind of putters out, and Ian's line "Darth...Vader" is as cheesy as it is anticlimactic. Who ever said we need to hear when he is first called by that name anyways? Sorry, this is just my opinion about the latter half of this otherwise, EXCELLENT scene.

 

Anakin's turn is brilliantly handled because it's a "reluctant" turn. He does feel remorse for hurting Mace. It's a turning point for him because he realizes his fate has been sealed.

 

But the pact is forced beyond logic..you cannot save a woman who's about to give birth an die with a power that takes time to acheive..how much time? Who cares just join up. It strains to the point of stupidity. I know he had to turn, why not make his dream about padme dying and not dying in childbirth, it would remove the time issue. It's a huge flaw. IMO. It makes anakin seem like a complete idiot an it assumes the audience is just as stupid. Make it logical. This offer defies the thought process of anyone with a brain.

 

"I agree with what you guys are saying, but I think everything is so far spelled out, that is seems somewhat forced. We know Anakin has turned when he says he "pledges" himself, after that, if we were to cut straight to the Jedi purge, the emotional impact of his turn would still be there. As it is, the scene kind of putters out, and Ian's line "Darth...Vader" is as cheesy as it is anticlimactic. Who ever said we need to hear when he is first called by that name anyways? Sorry, this is just my opinion about the latter half of this otherwise, EXCELLENT scene."

While I didn't think it was cheesey, I get what you're saying. Still, could you imagine if we never did see when Anakin was "dubbed" Darth Vader? It would be just weird for Palps to start calling him Vader. I think there would be a Star Wars fan riot if we didn't see the knighting scene.

 

Did everyone here notice that Sidious's voice becomes echoed and pitch shifted as he's talking to Anakin about killing Mace? The reason is that Anakin had made his turn to the darkside and was fully under Sidious's "spell" whether he liked it or not. He was hypnotised by the darkside in that moment. It's the same reason why the Emperor believed that Luke would take Vader's place at his side after Luke struck Vader down. Luke would have never joined the Emperor by his own choice (even after killing Vader in anger) but the Emperor KNEW that once Luke crossed the line, he would be powerless to the seduction of the darkside.

This is what makes Anakin's turn more logical and why he could slaughter younglings right away because of Sidious's voice representing the hypnotic power of the darkside. Once Anakin crossed the line and pledged allegance to Sidious, no matter if he disagreed with what he was doing, he was powerless to fight it. It makes the scene in RotJ with Luke much more tense because Luke came that close to becoming the Emperor's apprentice without even knowing it.

 

?But the pact is forced beyond logic?

We are talking about a guy who can see the future. How much Logic can we play with.

Listen,

The boy saw his mother die in a dream. He honestly thinks that if he doesn?t do something his wife will die too.

My question to you is ?What would you do to save your Family?.

His answer... ?WHATEVER IT TAKES?. Its not a hard idea so swallow....... Its human.

 

The future that is close versus an offer that has no time line for success? Not buying it. It's forced. How far would I go..prove you have the power. Tell me it can happen tomorrow..I would need more..maybe it's just me. You couldn't tell me based on the timeline of my dreams that it's just a possibility. Sorry. Not at the price of slaughtering everyone. Nope.

 

Good points Nihilist but we are talking about a kid who has no second thoughts about his powers and his ability to use them.

He KNOWS his dreams will come true. He KNOWS that he is powerful enough to see the ?true? future. She will die.....unless he can overcome death. He made that promise to his dying mother.

The time it ?should? take to learn said power is irrelevant....remember? he?s Anakin ?f@#$en skywalker..... he can do anything.

So time is for those who are less skilled then he is.

The other option he has is to do NOTHING....and thats something he "can't do".

 

Sidious' repulsive display of insanity, evil, and power in front of Anakin is so far over the top, that I find myself in disbelief that Anakin, GIVEN WHERE HIS CHARACTER ARC IS AT IN THE STORY, turns a blind eye to such an evil and accepts what Sidious has merely promised him!

Because he BELIEVES HIM. He feels something is wrong, that Sids is evil, but he believes him! Everything Palps said until then actually happened (Jedi traitors, etc). He also believe Padme WILL die if he does nothing.

And people don't seem to understand how the Darkside works. Anakin is already full of fear of losing Padme, and full of rage and regret of losing his mother. Once someone starts the down path, forever does it control that person's destiny.

Its like a DRUG people, don't you get it? Anakin LOSE IT!

People whine only because Anakin kills the Padawans. Its the only reason why.

 

Not to mention the fact that the twins were born prematurely. It's like the droids said, they needed to get the babies out or Padme and the babies will die. Besides, Palps gave Anakin the only possible hope to save Padme, nobody else did that. Padme was really all that was left in Anakin's life after his mom died. He hung his entire being on her existence, which is why he felt so betrayed by her in the end.

 

I know what you're saying..but it seems foolish. Is this kid thinking at all? Evidently not..he doesn't seem this ignorant. And here we're forced to swallow this!! He's selling his soul for a possibility to save someone who's dying imminently, with no thought at all. I just find it difficult..if lucas made the dream of her just dying, I would have no problem. As it is I will always think be thinking how stupid it is. I know he's arrogant, power hungry and sure of himself, but it doesn't work for me.

 

"I know what you're saying..but it seems foolish. Is this kid thinking at all? Evidently not..he doesn't seem this ignorant. And here we're forced to swallow this!! He's seeling his soul for a possibility to save someone who's dying imminently, with no thought at all. I just find it difficult..if lucas made the dream of her just dying, I would have no problem. As it is I will always think be thinking how stupid it is. I know he's arrogant, power hungry and sure of himself, but it doesn't work for me."

I completely understand where you're coming from, but it's like this:

Say you only have one thing in your life that you truly care about, only one thing in your life that you truly love, and that one thing defines your very existence. Now say that you knew in your heart that you were about to lose that one thing, wouldn't you do anything to save the only thing you truly love? I'm not really asking for an answer or anything, because even I can't answer it. But that's exactly what Anakin was going through.

 

I gave my answer, I know you didn't need me to but I did, again, I would have done all of that to save someone I loved, no doubt. But not if you can't show me the power. If I had to jump in front of a bullet for someone I loved..yes. If you tell me a drug may work to save someone I loved but you have to kill everyone I tell you to and it still may not work..NO. But it's not worth going on an on about.

We'll have to assume anakin isn't thinking..thats why the line from obi wan about not being able to teach him to think fits so well.
This is tough for me though. It's not an easy one to believe.

 

But the pact is forced beyond logic..you cannot save a woman who's about to give birth an die with a power that takes time to acheive..how much time? Who cares just join up. It strains to the point of stupidity. I know he had to turn, why not make his dream about padme dying and not dying in childbirth, it would remove the time issue. It's a huge flaw. IMO. It makes anakin seem like a complete idiot an it assumes the audience is just as stupid. Make it logical. This offer defies the thought process of anyone with a brain.

But you see, Anakin's not thinking clearly. He's making emotional decisions, rather than logical based ones. It's the same thing that Obi-wan thing that happened with Anakin, in AOTC. When Padme fell out of the Gunship and what was Anakin's immediate response?


ANAKIN: "Padmé!!! Put the ship down!"

OBI-WAN: "Don't let your personal feelings get in the way. Follow that speeder.

ANAKIN: "Lower the ship!"

OBI-WAN: "Anakin, I can't take DOOKU alone. I need you. If we catch him we can end this war right now. We have a job to do."

ANAKIN: "I don't care. Put the ship down."

OBI-WAN: "You'll be expelled from the Jedi Order."

ANAKIN: "I can't leave her."

OBI-WAN: "Come to your senses. What do you think Padmé would do if she were in your position?"

ANAKIN: "She would do her duty."

And Obi-wan was right. When she arrives to help, she sees Dooku take off. What does she do? She stops to fire on him. Doing her duty above her personal feelings for Anakin. She made a rational decision while Anakin makes emotionally decisions.

"I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based. I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding?a ?bigger picture? understanding?of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.

--George Lucas, Academy of Achievement Interview, 1999

"It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it?s only in the last act?when he throws his sword down and says, ?I?m not going to fight this??that he makes a more conscious, rational decision."

--George Lucas, Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000

Anakin's not being rational in AOTC. He's even said that he cannot do it.

ANAKIN: "You're asking me to be rational. That is something I know I cannot do."

 

Yeah..thanks..I was getting there. Appreciate the literature. I know what the situation is..I guess I should just be happy I'm not that kind of person. I guess swallowing it is tough because it makes no sense to me. But he is young and he doesn't do much rational thinking.

 

I do not critique and disect this film to shreds like most of you do. This is not real life stuff here, it is a movie pure entertainment. If you look at it from an entertaining aspect the film will be alsmost flawless. I just went into the theater saying to myself " this will be a great film ". Instead of saying " wonder what kind of flaws it will have, or if it will be better than the last film ". I critiqued the heck out of AOTC and because of that I didn't enjoy it that much at first. By ROTS I broke those unecissary chains and just went in to see the film with a clear conscience and it suceeded my every expectation. Just my opinion that I believe everyone would enjoy it more if they were to do this.

 

"Did everyone here notice that Sidious's voice becomes echoed and pitch shifted as he's talking to Anakin about killing Mace? The reason is that Anakin had made his turn to the darkside and was fully under Sidious's "spell" whether he liked it or not. He was hypnotised by the darkside in that moment. It's the same reason why the Emperor believed that Luke would take Vader's place at his side after Luke struck Vader down. Luke would have never joined the Emperor by his own choice (even after killing Vader in anger) but the Emperor KNEW that once Luke crossed the line, he would be powerless to the seduction of the darkside.

This is what makes Anakin's turn more logical and why he could slaughter younglings right away because of Sidious's voice representing the hypnotic power of the darkside. Once Anakin crossed the line and pledged allegance to Sidious, no matter if he disagreed with what he was doing, he was powerless to fight it. It makes the scene in RotJ with Luke much more tense because Luke came that close to becoming the Emperor's apprentice without even knowing it. "
------------------------------------------

^^ EXACTLY. The turn was not as quick as people deem. Watch the movie again and watch Annakins face, body and listen to his voice in that scene. He truly believes he can swear to Palpatine, get what he wants, then turn back. His pledge to Palpatine is totally insincere. BUT as the poster I have quoted says, Annakin needed only to give in to the dark side and his fate was sealed. He was powerless to only go in a little so that he may come back.

I havent read the book, but maybe in there it better explains Annakins thinking at that time. Even before he entered the Jedi temple he was probably thinking, "im not really going to do this...". But once he was far enough into the darkside he was capable of anything.

 

excellent points and postings darth sinister and darth mindscrew. reminding folks of lucas' intentions which is, afterall, the force in star wars.

 

I think this was a kind of flawed scene.

I really want to object to this whole "Dark Side hypnosis" theory people are talking about in regard to Palpatine. It defeats the notion of the entire film. The tragedy is supposed to be in the way Anakin makes the wrong choices. Under this theory, there would be no trgaedy, since it's just a story about how one evil person used mind control over another person to do bad things. Further, if this is all that was required, why wouldn't Palpatine have just used this trick when he first talked to Anakin, instead of letting himself be outed to the Jedi as the Dark Lord of the Sith? It would have saved him quite a bit of trouble.

I thought the scene in general was pretty credible until Anakin's abrupt shift from "What have I done?" to pledging allegiance to the Sith. It's as if he suddenly abandons any conflicting feelings he had over the act. I think this is especially lame in light of the fact that Palpatine afterwards justified his continued cooperation (the Jedi will kill you when they see what you've done, you must kill unrepentantly t ogather enough power with the Dark Side to preserve Padme, etc). It would've made much more sense to give this reasoning before hand, and then let Anakin make the decision to pledge himself completely at some later point. At least then it would seem like he was actually conflicted.

 

(quote) "^^ EXACTLY. The turn was not as quick as people deem. Watch the movie again and watch Annakins face, body and listen to his voice in that scene. He truly believes he can swear to Palpatine, get what he wants, then turn back. His pledge to Palpatine is totally insincere. BUT as the poster I have quoted says, Annakin needed only to give in to the dark side and his fate was sealed. He was powerless to only go in a little so that he may come back.

I havent read the book, but maybe in there it better explains Annakins thinking at that time. Even before he entered the Jedi temple he was probably thinking, "im not really going to do this...". But once he was far enough into the darkside he was capable of anything." (end quote)

__________
I like that explanation a lot actually. It lines up with what Anakin says to Padme later about how he will become more powerful than Palpatine, overthrow him, and then He and Padme can rule the galaxy and make things how they want them to be...pretty much the same thing Vader tells Luke in Empire. It seems clear this was Anakin's thinking all along. He never had a complete devotion to Palpatine. He thought he could merely learn to be more powerful from Palpatine and then be the most powerful Jedi ever and rule his destiny which is a Sith trait we get from Palpatine's story of Darth Plagous (sp). For Anakin, it all simply stemmed from his wish to save Padme from dying.

For me, the whole issue isn't why Anakin turns. I think that is perfect. The execution of his turn in the film is the only thing I have some mixed feelings about. It is a big jump from him showing some remorse for stepping in and stopping Mace, to killing younglings with us seeing no remorse. That jump in his character is very hard to believe.

Obviously after Mace is killed, Anakin has already come to the conclusion that he needs Palpatine's help to save Padme so he thinks he has to follow him at this point, and I like how one poster said he knows there is no turning back; that the Jedi would excommunicate him for what happened to Mace so he could also be fully convinced that the Jedi are the enemy now. It's just a small issue of the difficulty of execution I guess. Anakin is so torn and and struggling internally the whole movie and then he just lets go and starts killing because he believes it what he has to do to save Padme. I don't know if his turn could have been done better or how else it could have been done. I kinda think it would've been nice for there to be more time spent on this in between his pledging to Palpatine and his killing the younglings, but it doesn't really matter much. Overall, this is a small issue, and the internal struggle is kinda left to our imaginations. I think the movie is everything I could've wanted it to be, and I'm very pleased with what Lucas has achieved with the Star Wars story.

 

Hey, my first post. Sorry if it's a bit long.

I haven't read most of the posts on this topic, but this point really did bother me when I saw the movie. To me, Darth Vader has always been after power and the desire to rule the galaxy ("we can rule the galaxy" and all that, etc). There are flashes of this in the AOTC, if I remeber correctly ("I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever" or something like that). I would have liked to see this played out in ROTS, but it wasn't there. First of all, Anakin shows too much faith in the republic and the Senate throughout the movie. If this is the case, how does Palpatine explain to Anakin the need to organize an Empire? What happened to the "republic" and all? Also, it seems strange that after Anakin realizes that Palpatine was behind the separatists and basically manufactured the war that he wasn't a bit ticked off. He loves the republic and all, and even balks at "treason," yet the dude he just swore to serve is the one who put the republic in peril. Furthermore, Palpatine says the Jedi are enemies of the republic. Huh? He started A WAR against the republic! Wouldn't you stop to think - hey, if not for you, this whole war thing never starts in the first place! (and don't tell me his love for Padme blinded him - that explains his rash move to kill Mace, but he recovers enough to say "what have I done," so he's still thinking. I would have asked these questions before I did any kneeling and pledging!)

Second, even if we accept the need to destroy the Jedi council and other Jedi who are supposedly threatening the Senate, why kill the younglings? Were they really a threat to the republic and the Senate? If I were Anakin I sure would have balked. I don't buy that they were a threat - they're young and could have been turned themselves or otherwise told a story to explain why the elder Jedi needed to die. Be creative or at least put up an argument. On the other hand, if Palpatine pushes personal power, I can see why even younglings are a threat (they can grow up and destory you). Otherwise, seems pretty weak.

Third, when does Anakin feel the need for it to be "my Empire" and to "rule the galaxy," especially with Padme? I don't remeber him expressing these feelings before, especially in light of his faith in the republic and the Senate. When Obi-wan argues for democracy, does Anakin really disagree? Why now?

On a general note, why is Anakin surprised when Palpatine reveals himself in his chambers? Palpatine was dropping hints of his Sith background back in the opera house. After a chancellor, who started out as a senator from little peaceful Naboo, starts telling me about Sith legends and powers of the dark side that can't be learned from a Jedi, I would stop to think - how the heck do you know this stuff? Anakin? NOTHING! It's only after Palpatine tells him he can teach him the dark side in his chambers does Anakin wake up - oops, you're a Sith, right? Seemed pretty weak to me.

Anyway, if there were more references to Anakin's quest for personal power to rule and for his distrust or lack of faith in the Senate, I'd be more convinced. It would also fit in with his evil side and blind fury he shows in the OT. Otherwise, his turn is pretty unbelievable. (If you want to argue Palpatine brainwashed him, that's fine, but pretty weak.)

I liked the movie but I thought the whole turn was somewhat off.

Just some thoughts from a long time fan.

 

Anakin's turn to the Dark Side
This was almost entirely nonsensical. It's like this: Anakin's confusion about who's right, who's wrong, who's telling him the truth, etc., makes perfect sense up until the point that Palpatine reveals that he is a Sith. Now knowing this, most of Anakin's confusion should be pretty well cleared up, i.e. " Are the Jedi plotting to overthrow the Chancellor and take over the Senate?" "Have the Jedi overstepped their boundaries?" "Are the Jedi acting unethically?" If Anakin, at this point, still believes that the Jedi are 'evil' and not acting in the greater benefit of the Republic, then Anakin's a straight up moron who deserves to be taken advantage of.
To top it all off, since when did Anakin get so damn subservient? After being a Jedi for 15-16 years, he's still fighting authority, still talking back to his master, still mouthin' off to the Jedi Council and still questioning everything they tell him. But we're supposed to accept him offering himself up to be Palpatine's bitch without even questioning him on exactly when and how he's going to help him save Padme? He doesn't question Palpatine on how he's supposed to believe him considering what a total liar he's been (ie. claiming to be the defender of the Republic when in reality he himself created the Clone Wars)???!!??!?!

The fact that he doesn't even question or challenge Palpatine on the ability to save Padme is out of character for Anakin.
The fact that he can't seem to figure out what Palpatine's been up to all along makes him look learning disabled.
The fact that he kills the Jedi and the younglings seemingly without a whole lot of internal conflict makes me wonder if there is such a thing as
the "good man" that was Anakin Skywalker.
Poorly done in my opinion.

 

ditto to the post above...a few have claimed that the dark side is like a drug and Anakin was an addict.. but following this analogy, he started sucking **** for crack before he even finished his first joint

 

Thanks for the insight, Avaatar. But I think it falls a tad short.

 

"I thought the fall and turn had been handled pretty well through the series but the actual catalyst for him crossing over or joining palp's makes little sense-

- Palp's promises or offers to work on the power to keep padme alive, not something he can bestow immediately but something they would work on."


Palpatine only reveals that "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved"afterAnakin helps him kill Mace. Even at this point there is little Anakin can do except become Palpy's apprentice and embrace the dark side if he wants any chance to save Padme. I'm sure in his mind, "we can work together to discover the secret" is alot better than the advice Yoda gave him.

Anakin: "What must I do, Master Yoda?"

Yoda: "You must train yourself to let go of all that you fear to loose."


"I havent read the book, but maybe in there it better explains Annakins thinking at that time. Even before he entered the Jedi temple he was probably thinking, "im not really going to do this...". But once he was far enough into the darkside he was capable of anything." (end quote)

Actually, one thing that was different in the book was that Palpatine tells Anakin right from the beginning (at the opera) that Darth Pleguis had discovered the secret to keep one's self alive, and if a power as powerful as that was attainable, it should be easy to discover the secret to keep others from dying.


"Third, when does Anakin feel the need for it to be "my Empire" and to "rule the galaxy," especially with Padme? I don't remeber him expressing these feelings before, especially in light of his faith in the republic and the Senate. When Obi-wan argues for democracy, does Anakin really disagree? Why now?

"The Sith think inward, only of themselves." - Anakin at the opera house

Anakin has been consumed by the Dark Side at this point. Think of it almost like demonic possession. Once you let the dark side in, it begins to take over until there is no way to stop it. Notice the progression from "keeping my wife from dying" to "ruling the galaxy".