Anakin's turn - this is very weak

We doesnt know much about Dookus turn. Not how long it tok or any details about how he choosed the dark side. Thats why it seems more believable when Dooko did it... I am willing to accept how he did it because its more mystical.

As for Ani believing in dictatorship or not believing in Jedi order is not true (where did that come from?). He always believed in Jedi in theory and doing good and serve others. Yes, I doesnt always agree with the Jedi order, but who doesnt..!!!
"To save Padme" and "Fear of losing Padme" are actually the same thing in this case.

Why would Ani be arrested? Mace wanted to kill Palp. right there. Ani. believe that everybody, including Palp. should have a fair trial. He wanted all to see what Palp. have done. Ani. believed in a system who can judge people. Whats wrong with that?
Mace, Anakin and maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only one who might believe that Palp. were a Sith... What about the rest of the Galaxy. How would Mace convince who Palp. really were if he killed him first?


And why does Vader continue to serve Palp. after he hear about Padmes death?
If Anakin turn to the dark side out of pure love for Padme, there are no reason for him now that she are dead.

There never were any chance for PALP. to save Padme...

Ah yes, I forgot we need everything spelled out for us word by word because concepts such as inference and events taking place off-screen are lost on viewers. Anakin and Palpatine have a conversation in AOTC that alludes to previous conversations ("I have said it many times..."). They have more conversations in ROTS. Palpatine is referred to as Anakin's friend many times.

So I'm guessing you missed the part where he's in the Council chambers and realizes he will do anything to save his wife. And the part where he promises that he won't let her die. And the part where he promises to his mother's grave that he won't fail anyone like that again. And the part where he promises he will learn how to stop people from dying. And the part where he is intrigued by Palpatine's talk of the ability to save people from death. And the part where he thinks the Council is violating the Code and doesn't trust him.

I suppose you can say his fall took place in five minutes, if you ignore every single other event in the movie.

But again, we the viewers can't make connections between scenes. Perhaps Anakin's fall should have gone something like this:

ANAKIN: Mace, I won't let you kill Palpatine because he can save my wife, which I have vowed to do everything possible to prevent!

PALPATINE: I have the power to save the one you love...you know, Padme! Who you promised you wouldn't let die! Also, remember that I'm your friend and have supported you for many years, like that one time shortly before the Clone Wars began!

MACE: But Anakin, you are loyal to the Jedi!

ANAKIN: I don't trust the Jedi because they're violating their own code! Let me give you some examples: 1) They asked me to spy on a friend. 2) They are going to kill an unarmed prisoner, which I have been taught is wrong (recall when I felt remorse for it after killing Dooku).

MACE: I will kill you now, Palpatine!

ANAKIN: If he does that, Padme will die because only through him can I gain the power to save my wife (Padme)! I can not let that happen!

ANAKIN cuts off MACE's hand.

ANAKIN: Now that I have made an irrevocable decision by killing a Jedi, you are my only ally, Palpatine, and the only person who can help save Padme (who I promised to keep from dying, both to her and my mother). I pledge myself to you, because you have the power to save her.

PALPATINE: Together we can learn the power.

ANAKIN: Despite the fact that you have just said you don't know the power yet, such a power still exists, and there is still a chance to save her, and by her I mean my wife, Padme, who I promised to save. Without you, there is no chance. Some chance is better than no chance. However, I can't entirely trust you, so after I learn the secret, and by secret I mean the secret to save my wife, Padme, I will plot to overthrow you.

I agree his fall took place over a period of time. In fact, i beleive he stopped being a Jedi the moment he considered what Palpatine said to him in the Opera. I just find his reasons weak. they are excuses

/>

Aren't all premeditated crimes based on weak excuses? There is no acceptable, justifiable reason for turning evil. It's always a weak excuse. Darth Vader is not supposed to be justified - he is supposed to appear pathetic and lame for what he did./>/>

yeah, i hate the justifications i hear. like windu is just as bad as sidious. gimme a break/>/>

Why would Ani be arrested? Mace wanted to kill Palp. right there. Ani. believe that everybody, including Palp. should have a fair trial. He wanted all to see what Palp. have done. Ani. believed in a system who can judge people. Whats wrong with that?
Mace, Anakin and maybe Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only one who might believe that Palp. were a Sith... What about the rest of the Galaxy. How would Mace convince who Palp. really were if he killed him first?

Ascaaear,
You clearly don't understand what I mean. Ani would be arrested by the Jedi for helping MURDER the senior member of the Jedi Council! Since the Jedi Order WAS NOT trying to overthrow the Republic and eliminate the senate, then, had the Jedi Order not been destroyed, they would have arrested and probably executed Anakin and Palpatine for (just to pound it in) MURDER!!!!!! They WOULD get a fair trial, and then be executed for thier crimes. This is why Anakin moved so quickly against the Jedi Order. He didn't want Palpatine and himself to be arrested and executed!! A Sith Lord, or not, Sideous would eventually have been taken down if he didn't have all (or a least very many) Jedi killed outright without ever knowing what transpired between him, Anakin, and Mace. Vader continued to serve Palpatine because doing so gave his, now empty, life meaning. He was pissed for having his whole life destroyed and was taking it out on the rest of the galaxy. What would he have done instead: exile himself to the outer-rim, or commit suicide? Finally, you are right about Palpatine not ever being able to save Padme. My point was that, had Anakin, not sworn himself to Palpatine, Padme would not have died.

The only thing GL did wrong was not doing EXACTLY what people who can't think outside the box expected him to do with Anakin's "turn."

We doesnt know much about Dookus turn. Not how long it tok or any details about how he choosed the dark side. Thats why it seems more believable when Dooko did it... I am willing to accept how he did it because its more mystical.

We know the main reasons were political views. Politic ideas if you will... Far from being as intense as the fear to lose the one you love.

As for Ani believing in dictatorship or not believing in Jedi order is not true (where did that come from?). He always believed in Jedi in theory and doing good and serve others. Yes, I doesnt always agree with the Jedi order, but who doesnt..!!!

He talks about dictatorship to Padme in AOTC (maybe you should watch the movies again btw...) The waterfall scene. He also says it to indirectly to Obiwan in ROTS.

First! Its not Muder before he kill someone, so he can`t be executet for something he havent done yet. He didn`t try to kill him... just prevent Mace to kill Palp. right there and then. In the position where Mace were at that moment, Anakin could easily killed him. But he did NOT!

I agree. The Jedi would get a fair trial, but not Palp. if he was killed... Thats why Ani. doesnt want Mace to kill him.

Ani. was still a Padawan... Offcourse I am not sure, but I get the feeling that if Ani. did something wrong it would be Obi-Wan`s responsible too and they would share the punishment.

If Mace and Ani. caught Palp., he would get a fair trial. Everybody in the galaxy would know what Palp. was up to. Anakin would afterward know that he was deceived by Palp. and be sorry for it. He would maybe get a punishment, but still continue to be a Jedi. After all, he was the one who discovered that Palp. was a Sith.

Anakin was always caught in the middle and tried to figure out who was right, right up to the actually turn. When he found out Palp. was a Sith, Ani was actually more on the Light side.

Yeah, but my point is that Ani. should know that he would lose Padme if he turn to the other side... He knew that Padme wouldnt like it.

Ascaaear,
First, Anakin IS NOT a padawan in ROTS. He had been promoted to Knight sometime before the events of ROTS without taking the "offical" trails due to the high number of Knights lost in the war. The on screen proof of this is Anakin's hairstyle. He no longer has a padawan braid.

Of course Anakin could not be arrested for murder before he helped kill Mace. I meant after he helped kill Mace, Anakin and Palpatine would have been arrested/executed for thier crimes. This is why Anakin so willingly went to destroy the Jedi at the temple. Anakin and Palpatine would never be safe as long as there was an intact Jedi Order.

The fact of the matter is that we can argue over Anakin's "turn" all we want and never get anywhere since he NEVER really turned to the dark side. He pledged himself to Palpatine's teachings because he would do anything to save Padme, but never embraced the dark side of the force like Palpatine. This is why he was crying on Mustafar. He'd done a series of horrible things all to secure a way to save his beloved wife, and it clearly upset him greatly that he had to do such things. Then, as I've said before, he choked Padme and fought Obi-Wan over thier percieved betrayal (i.e. she cheated on him with Obi-Wan).

jangosadrunk, excellent post, but I don't agree 100% with that comment :

Then, as I've said before, he choked Padme and fought Obi-Wan over thier percieved betrayal (i.e. she cheated on him with Obi-Wan).


I don't think he saw that as a cheating affair, more of a betrayal (no sex and love). He thought Padme and Obiwan were together to "stop" him, but of course we all know she was not aware of the fact OB was on the ship.

Secondo, at that point, Anakin is already lost by the darkside... Right up when he starts the killing in the Temple and feels his powers grow, he's not Anakin anymore. "consumed by Darth Vader". His actions are not logical anymore. He's like a drug addict.

In fact I think he was consumed by the Darkside and made his choice in the Counsil room, in that beautiful scene were Padme and him look at each other from one side of the city to the other. Fear of lost = darkside.

When Anakin says to Padme in their apartment, "Obi-Wan was here,? I felt he was beginning to suspect Padme of being less than faithful. Even before Obi-Wan emerged from the ship on Mustafar, I knew when he did Anakin was going to freak out and think they were messing around behind his back. I think GL used very specific language to allow our own interpretation, especially with the line "you're with him now!" This would allow children to interpret what Anakin thought was going on in an innocent fashion, while teens and adults could interpret it in a less "family-friendly" way or vice-versa if they wanted. I thought it was a good way to not bring sex into star wars without obviously pandering to children.

True, you are right on that. My mistake

Like I said in my last post. Ani. did NOT try to kill Mace, he was preventing Mace to kill Palp.
If Ani. could explained his reasons for what he did to the order, I think they would agree with him.

You have a good point there. He never embraced the Dark side in Ep. 3 like he already had done in Ep. 4. So there is a gap that are not explained, witch I wish was explained in ep. 3. And dont say its because he need to fill his empty life, because its not that.

Oh, Anakin did turn to the Dark Side and he did fully embrace it. The difference is that he's the only known Sith, in the films at least, to have some good left in him.

^No, he hadn't embraced the dark side in ANH either. Darth Vader NEVER embraces the dark side. The most "dark side" thing we ever see him is choking various imperial officers to death or not. I'm sure military officers in Star Wars and real life have done many things worse that killing subordinates for incompetence. Hell, Tarkin ordered the destruction of a whole planet!! If anyone embraced the dark side, it was him.

I don't think the Jedi Order would treat Anakin with mercy because he claimed to try and stop Mace from killing Palpatine. At the very least he ASSUALTED the senior member of the Jedi Council, and the assault led directly to Mace's death. I say he is an accessory to Mace's murder, at the very least, and would be treated the same as Palpatine. He wasn't trying to stop Mace for a noble reason anyway. If Mace killed Palpatine, then Anakin would not be able to learn how to stop Padme's death. That is why he did it. As Palpatine said, the Jedi are relentless. Had Anakin not gone to the temple to do what he did, Jedi would just keep coming for Anakin and Palpatine.

If Anakin has FULLY embraced the Dark Side, why is there good in him? Why does he cry on mustafar? Darth Vader crying???? Ugh!!!

i just don't buy that.

Why he is crying? Because he is suffering. The dark side is suffering.



Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me
/LM

Ascaaear wrote:


Like I said in my last post. Ani. did NOT try to kill Mace, he was preventing Mace to kill Palp.
If Ani. could explained his reasons for what he did to the order, I think they would agree with him.



cmon. are you serious? Anakin's gonna go to Yoda and say, "Palpatine is the Sith Lord we've been looking for. Windu and three others went to arrest him, but he killed three of them. He shot lighting at Windu, but he held on. He decided that he must kill Sidious. As he was about to, i cut his arm off and Sidious killed him with lightning."

and Yoda's gonna say, "Good job Anakin and a great decision! Its far better that Windu died than us killing the Sith Lord who is trying to kill all the Jedi! I have a cake in the oven. Lets bring it to Sidious and we'll have a little party!"

Jeez.

Like I said in my last post. Ani. did NOT try to kill Mace, he was preventing Mace to kill Palp.
If Ani. could explained his reasons for what he did to the order, I think they would agree with him.

He did cut off his hand... hmm... Yeah I agree with you he was only protecting Sidious, but its still TREASON of the Jedi order, and Mace, mister number 2 Jedi, gets killed while Sidious is alive and well. Anakin is there. All is filmed. That's why GL says Anakin gets tricked. He is seduced by the darkside because his fear of lost. But Anakin wanted to stay a Jedi, but learn the darkside at the same time. But after the Mace murder there is no option left for him.

The most "dark side" thing we ever see him is choking various imperial officers to death

So he just killed people... that's all? You're right, that's nothin. Oh yeah there's that whole killing all the jedi including younglings thing, but who's keeping count

So he just killed people... that's all? You're right, that's nothin. Oh yeah there's that whole killing all the jedi including younglings thing, but who's keeping count

That is such a lazy attitude toward Darth Vader.

Lets make a list of others in the GFFA who have killed:

Han Solo: Greedo, troopers in hanger bay 94, troopers on the DS, troopers flying TIE fighters, trooper on Hoth, more troopers flying TIE fighters, Boba Fett, Jabba's guards, troopers on Endor.

Luke Skywalker: troopers on the DS, troopers flying TIE fighters, troopers riding in/piloting AT-ATs, Jabba's guards, and troopers on Endor.

Leia Organa: troopers on the DS, troopers on Hoth, and troopers on Endor (and she was a Senator!).

Yoda: troopers on Kashyyyk, and possibly Red Guards.

Mace Windu: Jango Fett, and he was going to kill Palpatine.

This list could go on forever. The point is that the Heros killed many many people, and Darth Vader killed his share of people as well. Killing is not inherently a dark side choice or else Luke and Leia would be Sith Lords as well. Palpatine, along with killing many people, used the FORCE to help him enslave an entire galaxy simply to further his own evil ends. That is why Palpatine is evil. Vader used the force as a weapon to kill 2 people (they were bad guys anyway), but NEVER showed any desire to do anything worse than continue as the Emperor's heavy. Vader had almost no free will left by the time of the OT, and doing the Emperor's bidding allowed him to take out his anger at Palpatine, Obi-Wan, and Padme on the whole galaxy.

I dont question Count Dooku's turn because count dooku is wasted in Ep.3 and has no story in Ep. 2. The man is in Ep.3 for about 3minutes and dies to easily to have ever beleived he was a killer jedi. Second I also dont care why Palps is evil, I dont need everything spelled out for me, but GL has been building towards this for decades; he insists that the whole entire thing is about Anakin, and that in ROTS we will see why he turns. Well why he turns is pathetic! ANd if your only defense against criticism is "you just want things spelled out for you" then look up something else cause its weak and its old. Wanting the things that are important and are said to be important to actually make sense does mean you want everything spelled out. That one scene were Palps praises Anakin shouldnt overshadow the 13years he's had with Obi-Wan. So because he is all chummy with him for 3mins in AOTC and pats him on the head in TPM is suppose to make us beleive that he would turn on his pseudo family because of him? Not only does he beleive the evil sith lord, but when he finds out that the evil sith lord really doesnt have the power to stop death but may be able to find it he doesnt take a step back and starts questioning! Are jedi not taught to read the fine print before signing the contract?!?! ANd the fact that people are wondering if Palps or Plageus(sp) created Anakin or if Anakin thought Obi and Pads were having an affair proves that GL definetely missed something when writting this. There are too many questions left unanswered and they shouldnt be. We shouldnt wonder if or if not Anakin thought their was an affair going on; or if this whole entire thing was planned from day one. Wanting things explained doesnt mean we need everything spelled out; this just need to have reasons(and good ones) behind them. So once again I'll say wanting to save your wife, then killing her is not a good reason to torture people, dismember your son, and kill millions throughout the galaxy. Anakin had no reason to turn on the jedi and padme HAD NO REASON TO DIE!!!! Oh wait that last parts in the wrong thread

Do you really believe this is the first time a Jedi do anything wrong? Jedis are not Gods. A Jedi are a person of respect and honor and are not supposed to do anything wrong, BUT a Jedi are human too and have the nature to do wrong also. If he fails or do something wrong he WILL be able to ask for forgivness and also receive it.
Do you all actually forgett that Vader turned back to the Good side again in ep. 6 and finally joined Yoda, Obi-Wan and all the others?? I dont think they punished him... he already have. They were happy that he finally did turn back, as they also would be if choosed not to turn to the Dark side.

Lyvia did a nice post... I totaly agree with you.

I hope GL addresses all these issues in the ROTS DVD commentary, otherwise this thread may go on forever.

IMO Lucas could have easily made Anakin's turn much more straightforward by making him embrace the darkside out of anger, instead of fear of loss as he did in ROTS. What I see is the duel with Dooku taking place later in the movie, with Anakin killing the Count by entering into a darkside induced frenzy (ie like Luke when he defeats Vader in ROTJ). After Anakin has embraced the darkside Sidious (who has been observing the duel) reveals himself and knights him as the new Sith lord. The key to this scene would be that Anakin makes a conscious decision to embrace the darkside, because he believes that this is the key to defeating Dooku.

The biggest problem I see with the above scenario is that critics and bashers would be all over Lucas, slamming him for running out of ideas and recycling the climax from ROTJ. By taking a less obvious route and having Anakin turn out of fear of loss, Lucas has made the turn more tragic and artistic IMO, and I applaud him for the idea. However has he pulled it off? I think the debate raging in this thread suggests that the idea hasn't been executed perfectly. I can buy it, but I can understand if some people don't.