Anakin's Visions: From Palpatine or The Force?

Ever since watching ROTS, I have often wondered about the origin of Anakin's visions. Though never questioned in the films or the novel, it is simply implied that possibly that Padme dying in child birth is the force showing Anakin the future.
But, logically, you would have to assume Palpatine was somehow sending these visions to Anakin. Anakin wouldn't have become a Sith Lord if he had not seen these visions. So, in a way, it's it impossible that the force would predict Padme dying when Anakin was still a Jedi? He only turned because he had visions, if he didn't have the visions, then he wouldn't have turned. That's why I believe Palpatine influenced the force in some way and put this visions in Anakin's head.

 

There's nothing to support Palpatine did this. Everything right now points to the Force. From the look of things, Anakin's fear of change and of an uncertain future sparked his vision. Coupled with his more aggression in the last few months.

 

The source of Anakin's vision is the force as Yoda's words of instruction in ESB reminds us, "Through the force, things you will see...".

 

I think you are right but i find it interesting that you credit his agression, and fears as causing the vision. I would credit his agression and fear with causing the vision to come true, but not with causing the vision. It is as if the vision was a warning to him from the force, a warning that was misunderstood and brought into reality because of his darker feelings and later actions.

 

I think sinister has it completely correct. There is no evidence to support that Palpatine was responsible for Anakin's visions.

 

Questions that arise for me:
1) How does Palpatine know about Anakin's fear of Padme dying (opera and revelation scene in ROTS)?
2) Why is it that Anakin's nightmares are shown differently in AOTC and ROTS - only in ROTS we actually *see* the nightmares, that is?

 

I like the idea that it was the Force, but many people are saying it was Palps.

 

Believe it was the Force that spoke to Anakin in his dreams, I do ? however I?m very convinced that Palpatine had his nasty fingers in this somewhere ? either behind the kidnapping of Shmi which generates those nightmares or the constant repetition that he is the only way to save Padme from the new nightmares ~ there?s an association there somewhere.

 

The reason I say his aggression and his fear caused it, is because of something Lucas said.

"Part of the going into the tree is learning about the Force. Learning about the fact that the Force is within you, and at the same time, you create your own bad vibes. So, if you think badly about things or you act badly, or you bring fear into a situation, you're going to have to defend yourself or you're going to have to suffer the consequences for that. In this particular case, he takes his sword in with him which means he's going to have combat. If he didn't, he wouldn't. He's creating this situation in his mind because, on a larger level, what caused Darth Vader to become Darth Vader is the same thing that makes Luke bring that sword in with him. And so, just as later on we find out Darth Vader is actually his father - so he is part of himself - but he has the capacity to become Darth Vader simply by using hate and fear and using weapons as oppose to using compassion and caring and kindness. But that's the big danger of the series, is that he will become Darth Vader."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.


Lucas says that Luke had the vision of Vader based on his own fears and we all saw the end result of those fears as they become anger and hate. Luke brought his fear into the cave. Anakin brings his fears into his dreams. Remember, it is said that dreams are our subconscious mind's way of dealing with things. So Anakin has done something bad, which is kill Dooku in cold blood. This bothers him. He's afraid of what it means. Dooku said that he had great fear. He is afraid to use his anger and hate. So he has that simmering in his mind. We've seen two examples of his emotions being used. We know that on Praesitlyn he used them again. So there is that. Then he finds out that Padme is pregnant and she talks about how the baby will change everything. Well, we know that Anakin fears change. So between his using the dark side, here and there, combined with his fear of change he has a vision of the future. He's being shown what will happen if he continues to have fear and to use his darker emotions.

Palpatine knew what he knew, because Anakin is not burying his feelings deep down around Palpatine. He doesn't know that he is a Dark Lord of the Sith. Anakin's like an open book to him. This is why Obi-wan warns Luke to bury his feelings, when he confronts the Sith. His feelings will be used against him, by Palpatine.

 

You'd almost believe Lucas planned this whole thing out. Like he was some kind of storytelling genius or something.



Naaah!

 

I agree on the idea that Anakin's visions are fostered by his fear. My only problem is, why would Padme dying in childbirth, of all occasions, be the subject of his nightmares? Padme's been in mortal danger before quite a number of times. Never have we heard of Anakin having nightmares of Padme dying because of a combat situation, an abduction, an assassination and things the like. Instead he's dreaming about Padme dying in childbirth - on a civilized planet with high quality medical facilities like Coruscant, or Naboo, that's not the most likely scenario. Any of the other situations I mentioned above are far more likely. Yet, he is dreaming about Padme dying in childbirth. Why is that? And why doesn't he realize that simply having Padme hospitalised and put under close supervision by qualified doctors would reduce the risk of her dying in childbirth to close to nil?

 

Anakin is now attached to her so much, that he does not think rationally. He sees that this is just childbirth. Not assassination or the like. But nature coming to claim her. He doesn't like this fact and so he relies on his emotions, rather than logically. This is why Jedi forbid attachments. Why Yoda tells Anakin to let go of his fears. If he has no fear, then he can make calmer and more rational decisions. This is why Lucas says that he would like to see our society mature and rely less emotional decisions and more on logical ones. This is why our world is filled with hate, war, hunger and all kinds of problems. We will always be bound by emotions, which serve to weaken us rather than strengthen us. I'm not saying that all emotion is bad. But we need to be able to do things in a logical, calm manner. Rather than just fly off the handle because we have the capacity for hate, selfishness and greed.

 

This is an interesting thought, the one of nature coming to claim her. Well, the question is, how "natural" is it for a woman to die in childbirth in an industrialized society?

But I see where you're coming from. Only, Anakin's visions of his mother being tortured on Tatooine seem so much more a realistic scenario to me.

So do you think the difference in the portrayal of these nightmares (AOTC: implicit; ROTS: literally shown on screen) has no meaning? My idea was that it's possible this difference might indicate a fundamental difference concerning the visions themselves. The AOTC vision being a vision of what's occuring at present and the ROTS vision being one of what might/will happen is an obvious vision - but I suspected that there might something else to it.

 

And why doesn't he realize that simply having Padme hospitalised and put under close supervision by qualified doctors would reduce the risk of her dying in childbirth to close to nil?



Because he knows how incompetant those hospital droids are.

 

Some things were planned out--others, such as Vader's being Luke's dad were inspired genius. Though many criticize GL for constantly revising his saga, I think his not quite making things up as he goes along demonstrate his genius for storytelling.

I guess I am just a heretic, since we all know that GL could care less for storytelling and characters as he so obsessed with technology and $$$.

 

I think the novel stats (And logic Dictates) that Anakin wasn't shielding his mind from being read by force users in front of Palpatine. Why should he? There is no reason to suspect Palpatine is a force user. With Anakin leaving his gaurd down like that, Palpatine can probably peer into EVERY aspect of his thoughts. That is why he knew about the dreams. The dreams were basically visions of the future if Anakin did not do something about his growing anger/dark side issues. Had he taken Dooku into custody somehow instead of killing him, I would believe the dreams would not have occured.

Carnage

 

If Anakin's visions were created due to his fear and guilt of killing an unarmed prisoner, then why didn't he have visions of horrid things after the Tusken slaughter? Anakin had experienced so many fears in his life, so why that one time?

 

I took it as Anakin just confiding in Palps about his dreams, hopes and troubles, like he did about the sandpeople.

 

In the Novel, there is a part where Palpatine is like "Let's talk Man to Man Anakin - I'm not blind and still have friends on Naboo that tell gossip. I know you are married to Padme." after the dreams start. Anakin didn't tell anyone about Padme.

Carnage

 

Perhaps Palpatine was able to look into Anakin's mind to know about his visions. BUT, Palpatine had this amazing plan and the final piece to the plan would be to convert Skywalker into a Sith Lord. I can't believe however, that Palpatine was just hoping that the Force would send Anakin visions that Padme would die at some point. In the ROTS novel, it is made clear that Palpatine put Anakin and Padme together so again to seal Skywalker to the dark side. But I can't buy that Palpatine was counting on a force vision to show Padme was in danger. Going by everyone else's logic Palpatine, not expecting Padme to die, would have to say to something to Anakin like:

Palpatine: Anakin, I'm a Sith Lord. I'm the most powerful being in the galaxy. If you join me, I can protect your secret wife. Otherwise i'll stop at nothing to destroy her. Join me, it the only way...
Anakin: Wow, that was really lame Palps,I can protect her just fine, I'm going to go get Mace...

 

Pretty natural. It still happens. Maybe not all the time, but it can happen. Women can tear so bad that they rip an aorta (sp) and bleed out within seconds. This can happen with home births or while trying to get to the hospital. Hell, there are some women who can develop a toxicity to childbirth and not only could it be fatal to the mother but the child as well.

Anakin's logic is based on his fears, rather than rational thinking. The true tragedy is that it is not a natural death, but one brought on by his betrayal. A broken heart, which would not happen if he simply let go of his fears.

The thing is that Anakin thinks it is nature. It's not. It's his greed, lust for power and anger that brings his terrible vision to pass. Yes, his mother's plight was based on the moment. Padme's was still off in the distance. It is still a vision that bothers him to his core. Instead of meditating on the Force, to seek answers, he looks from without instead of within.

Because he was not guilty over what he did to the Tuskens. Yes, he did cry and vent his anger. But he didn't feel no guilt for it. He called them animals and killed them as such. That was his justification. Dooku was different. He didn't see him as an animal. He saw him as a man. A frightened old man, who realized his own mortality in that instant. He hesitated with Dooku as opposed to the Tuskens, whom he didn't hesitate to kill. After he killed Dooku, he feels guilt for having broken the Jedi Code once again. For killing in cold blood, once again. For letting his anger and hate control him, once again.

 

Palpatine was workin different angles with Anakin - telling him how great he is, getting him to kill Dooku, etc... Suddenly, this Padme thing fell into his lap. I think fortunate things like this happened to Palpatine frequently and he was particularily adept at using the to his advantage. After TPM, he was probably thinking "I want that boy to be my apprentice, but I need someone else that can help me NOW. Damnit Maul, why didn't you kill Kenobi. Let me think. Who can I get?" *Knock Knock* "Who's there?" "Master Dooku. I quit the Jedi but I KNOW you are the Sith Lord, i've come to kill you." "Hold on there, I just happen to have an Apprentice position open, before killing me let's talk about this...."

Carnage

 

Okay, but why was he afraid of losing Padme? There was not immediate danger to her at that moment.

 

I think that in the Novel, even as Anakin and Obi-Wan were flying towards the Invisible Hand, Anakin was fretting about Padme's safety during the invasion of Coruscant. I may be thinking of the JWTitus Fanfic though.

Carnage

 

Previous to Dooku, how often did Anakin tap into the dark side, feeding off his hate and anger? According to Dooku, Skywalker has hate and anger, but doesn't use it. I don't really know any EU PT stuff, but the Tuskens and Ventress seem to be the only 2 incidents. Skywalker seems to have kept control of his emotions during his career as a Jedi up until the events of AOTC.

I think Skywalker only feels guilty about what Obiwan would have thought of what he did to Dooku. And essentially, Obiwan lives by the code, so in a sense, he is the Jedi Code to Skywalker. In the ROTS novel, it seems Skywalker won't kill Dooku (Obiwan's influence no doubt)but he wants to, and Palpatine's "do it" is simply authorization to kill. I never really thought Skywalker was impressed (or sought to impress) the Jedi Order. Really from the movies, Skywalker seems to care little for the other Jedi but has an understandably deep bond with Obiwan.