Anakin's Visions: From Palpatine or The Force?

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Yes! to Veloz you listen!

Years later, when Luke see's his friends suffering while undergoing his Jedi training, Yoda tells the young Skywalker it is the future that he sees.

Luke asks Yoda: "Will they die??

Yoda concentrates intensely for a moment and then responds: "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future!"

Just as the force showed Luke what could happen to his friends, the force is showing Anakin a possible future. The key is that both Skywalker futures get set into place in large part by the choices and actions of the father and son.

Palpatine can feel fear, anger and rage in Anakin the way a wild wolf smells fresh blood. The Sith master will pounce upon any weakness that his hunted prey shows. The force warns Anakin of one possible but very likely outcome to succumbing to those fears, yet Anakin fails to see the dream as a personal warning -- Padme faces a possible death, not from Anakin's inaction, but by his wrong action. Anakin cannot see that the selfish and misguided steps that he takes to 'save Padme' will turn his nightmare into reality.

Just a side note: In retrospect, I think it would have been so cool to have Vader's mechanical breathing rising steadily in intensity as an audio backdrop to Anakin's nightmare about Padme's death, getting to the loudest level just as Padme screams out through the haze of the dream to Anakin: "Anakin, I love you. I love you."

 

Because as Obi-wan said, Anakin's abilities make him arrogant. That he doesn't take his Lightsaber training as seriously as he should, otherwise he'd excel past Yoda. When Anakin thinks that he is already ahead of him, Obi-wan tells him in no certain terms that he is not. It's only in his mind that he thinks this. This is re-enforced when he fails to save Padme and gets his ass handed to him by Dooku. Afterwards, Anakin improved himself. This why he says that his powers have doubled. Dooku noticed it prior to their battle and even during it, that Anakin had come a long way since Geonosis. He had grown stronger and more skilled, than three years ago.

The ROTS novelization? I don't recall a vision in there. Anyway, Anakin does have visions of the future. But his vision in ROTS, is based on his fears and guilt. His visions in AOTC are based on the moment. His visions in "Rogue Planet" are based on the fear within him about what he could become.

Except Palpatine is not the problem. Anakin is. Anakin has attachment to Padme and it is this attachment that will lead to his undoing and to her death. That is why the Force shows Padme dying in childbirth and Anakin is nowhere to be seen. Only Obi-wan. Rather than focusing on why he's not present at the birth of his child, he is focused on the fact that she will die and that Obi-wan is there.

 

Because as Obi-wan said, Anakin's abilities make him arrogant. That he doesn't take his Lightsaber training as seriously as he should, otherwise he'd excel past Yoda. When Anakin thinks that he is already ahead of him, Obi-wan tells him in no certain terms that he is not. It's only in his mind that he thinks this. This is re-enforced when he fails to save Padme and gets his ass handed to him by Dooku. Afterwards, Anakin improved himself. This why he says that his powers have doubled. Dooku noticed it prior to their battle and even during it, that Anakin had come a long way since Geonosis. He had grown stronger and more skilled, than three years ago.

i agree on that. I wasn't sure when you were refering to his slacking off. During the AOTC, it was only in Anakin's mind that he was on top of his game.
The ROTS novelization? I don't recall a vision in there. Anyway, Anakin does have visions of the future. But his vision in ROTS, is based on his fears and guilt. His visions in AOTC are based on the moment. His visions in "Rogue Planet" are based on the fear within him about what he could become.

In the ROTS novel, Anakin gets a vision on the Invisble Hand that shows him standing over Dooku with his and Dooku's lightsaber. I want to know how that fits in with your theory.

Except Palpatine is not the problem. Anakin is. Anakin has attachment to Padme and it is this attachment that will lead to his undoing and to her death. That is why the Force shows Padme dying in childbirth and Anakin is nowhere to be seen. Only Obi-wan. Rather than focusing on why he's not present at the birth of his child, he is focused on the fact that she will die and that Obi-wan is there.

Again, I agree. Anakin is the problem. However, is Anakin not powerful enough to live with such a flaw? If Sidious had been destroyed no one could have attacked that flaw in Anakin. No Sith to try and turn him. The Jedi would most likely allowed him to leave the order. All I am saying with the exception of Sidious, Anakin could have worried about Padme every day but nothing could have happened to him like what took place in the events of ROTS, no one could exploit that flaw like Sidious did.

 

I'm going to agree with Veloz

 

Ah, that. Okay. The vision is also showing him what will come if he continues. Ever since he and Obi-wan had their brief encounter with Dooku on Tythe, Anakin had very furious at Dooku. So much so that he brought down the roof on their heads, when Anakin finally lost it and lashed out with the Force. The vision is telling him that he is going down a dark path and he must make a choice. He chooses poorly. So the Force warns him again with Padme.

Except that Anakin could've gone down a different route to the dark side. The Sith came about because a Jedi found out that the Force could make him stronger, if he used his emotions instead of showing restraint. Anakin could still become a Sith, the only difference being that he wouldn't be seeking out the power to cheat death, in the same way. He would be seeking out power to compensate for his loss. Anakin cannot live with a vision like that, because he is weak. He is weak emotionally and mentally. All the power in the world will do you little good, if you do not have the strength of character to endure. If you don't have the will to go on, despite tragedy.

 

So in a way, he is subconciously starting to feel guilt for the Tusken slaughter? He may not feel guilty on a concious level, having reduced them to animals worthy of slaughter. But if as you say, he's "feeling guilt for having broken the Jedi Code once again", is his conscience finally breaking through the rationalizations he's used since AOTC to justify his revenge?

And on one of your earlier posts, I agree with your example of living with the potential of something bad happening to a loved one. My husband is a Type 1 diabetic, and we've dealt with some pretty scary situations because of that. But he doesn't go through each day worrying over what might happen, and I've learned to not let my fear of all the things that could happen to him rule my thoughts. We just do what we can, and know that we can't prevent any bad thing from ever happening. It's very hard, but getting to that point does free you up immeasurably.

 

He's feeling guilt more for having broken the Code to get married, to use his anger on Asajj Ventress twice and what he did during the mission on Praesitlyn. In each case, he used his emotions to get what he wanted. Revenge or to keep his loved one close. This guilt started with the Tuskens, but he only feels guilty for having given in to his emotions. Not for actually killing them. He doesn't apologize or show remorse for having killed them. Just that he broke the Code repeatedly.

Exactly. This is why Yoda says "Mourn them, not. Miss them, not." He is telling Anakin to live life. Don't live in death. But as Obi-wan says, only Sith deal in absolutes. Everything is for certain. Jedi deal in possibilities. Nothing is for certain as the future is always in motion. Yoda speaks about the future as an unknown quantity. Sidious speaks of it as a certainty.

 

Isn't it wierd though? He only has those two, which lead him to become Darth Vader.

 

So are you saying that Anakin felt guilty about killing the Tuskens because he had broken the Code and he feels guilty for Dooku's death on a personal level?

 

The dream was on a deeply personal level -- the Chosen One, conceived of the force, was shown by the force the path to his eventual damnation and subsequent salvation in the visions of Padme's death and the birth of the Skywalker twins.

Anakin's dream was of one possible future, the most probable one based upon the wayward Jedi's recent actions. He was shown the end point of this current path. If he did not alter his steps, what he saw would certainly come to be. Anakin obviously interpreted the dream wrongly, focusing as Sinister often lectures us, upon himself and his immediate surroundings instead of on the bigger galactic picture. Anakin cannot get outside of himself, of his fears, wants and needs.

The more egotistical and possessive Anakin's actions, the more Palpatine's pawn he becomes. Anakin literally gets trapped within himself, unable to escape from his own devolving emotions. This slide becomes overtly manifested at the end of the film when his charred, limbless torso is quite literally imprisoned within life support armor -- a self-consumed AND self-contained Sith, more machine than man -- a very, very angry machine!

 

No one is giving any credit to Anakin here. What you say is true, he cannot get outside of himself of his fears wants and needs. BUT in the novel it is made clear that Anakin plans to leave the Jedi Order and soon. He understands that he cannot be a true Jedi and have Padme and his fears. He was trying to do the right thing and leave, but it just so happened that it was around the time Palpatine decided to make his move.

On the surface as the movies and novels play out, you are shown the downfall of Anakin Skywalker as he switches alligences from the Jedi to the Sith. When you get passed the clear Good Vs. Evil and Black and White stitutions of the differences of the Jedi and Sith, in-universe, the it's actually a very gray issue. In Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine tries to explain to Anakin that the Jedi and Sith are similar- that in fact, the Sith are about as evil as the Jedi. To plant the seeds that if in fact, you are a Sith, that doesn't make you evil. I forget where I read it possibly the Dark Lord novel, but the essential difference between the Jedi and the Sith is this: the Jedi are most worried about Peace, while the Sith are worried about security- a very gray issue. The Sith believe the means justify the ends- creating the Death Star and blowing up Alderran (sp?) is acceptable because it will put the whole galaxy back in line. The Jedi just go about peaceful ways to attain peace- hence all that stuff about how a Jedi uses his powers only for defense.

Who is to say the Jedi way is the right way? Because Star Wars are just films you have to clarify and label groups as good and evil. But if you really wanted to dig deep it isn't like that at all.

 

Right. Anakin doesn't regret killing the Tuskens. He regrets that he did it as a Jedi in training. When he killed the Tuskens, he was not Jedi Padawan Anakin Skywalker. He was Anakin Skywalker, a greiving son who was angry at everyone and filled with great hate. When he killed Dooku, he was Jedi Knight Anakin Skywalker who realized that he screwed up again and knows that he shouldn't have. That's all he was.

Finally, people are catching on.

Though, I try not to come off as a lecture.

But the thing is that he still falls into that trap, even without Palpatine's involvement. He spent three years doing things that he shouldn't have. He was being selfish clear up until he started to rethink things, as we see in "Obsession" and the ROTS novelization. Then he did a complete 180 because of that dream. It was no longer about thinking of Padme. It was about himself. Rather than quitting so that they could spend more time together, openly and freely, he did what he did.

 

Because he realized he did it for revenge?

 

The thing is that there is a clear, black and white line. Yes, things are shades of gray. But when it comes to selflessness and selfishness, the lines are distinct and clear. In the case of the Jedi, their way is right because it allows freedoms to everyone. Everyone has a say. With security, you have no say in matters. Someone else is making the decisions for you. Human nature has taught us that we don't like being told what to do, which is why we have so many who break the laws and don't follow what is consider the right path. Just as it is human nature to want security, it is human nature to rebel against authority.

But you're going into a picture that is larger than the core issues. This isn't about alligence. This is about right and wrong. About the human condition when it comes to love and life. Anakin knew what was right and wrong. But as was said in another popular film trilogy, "There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it." Anakin knew what was right and wrong. But he did not do the right thing.

Did Anakin know that what he did was wrong? Did Anakin like the Jedi? Did Anakin even like being a Jedi? All am saying is that yes it was a selfish act to kill all the Jedi to save your wife- from a certain point of view. But if you believe that the Jedi Order was corrupt and it's time was up- than Anakin did a good thing. From that point of view, Anakin came upon a stitution of convenence when Sidious told him that he could save his wife and help him restore order to the galaxy.

 

Yes. It's the mindset. In AOTC, he was just a man on a mission of revenge. In ROTS, he's a Jedi who has taken revenge.

Yes. That's why he numbly sits down and says, "What have I done?" Why he doesn't tell Padme that he killed the Younglings. Why he tells Artoo to wait outside. Why he's crying after he has killed the Separatist Council. He knows he's doing wrong, but he cannot stop himself because he knows she will leave him. He knows that he has gone too far. He loves the feeling of power.

Yeah, he did. He just didn't like what he thought was happening to them.

Yes and no. Yes, because it is always what he wanted. No because he didn't like all their policies and what he precieved as hypocricy (sp).

Except, he didn't quite believe it. He's convincing himself this is the case. He is using it as a justification for his actions. Because if he stepped back and really examined what he did, he would be forced to admit he ****** up. But he cannot do this and so he buries himself in lies. Points of view. Anything to justify his actions. That is why when Luke shows him the road not taken, he reflects on the mistakes he's made. He's seeing things from Obi-wan's point of view. From Luke's. From Padme's. He knows he was wrong for everything.

 

Killing the Younglings wasn't just a selfish act "from a certain point of view", it was wrong period, from any point of view. Going from believing the Jedi were corrupt, to justifying their extermination as a "good thing" just shows the triumph of Sith amorality, and the extent to which Anakin will do almost anything to achieve his desires.
If Anakin felt so strongly about the Jedi, he had the option to walk away from them. Saying Anakin had no other option other than to help destroy and murder Jedi to save Padme leaves out the fact that, as a favorite song of mine says "you could've said no, if you wanted to, you could've walked away - couldn't you?" (Paint a Vulgar Picture, The Smiths) But if he did so, he'd lose his "new powers" and the control he wanted so much to prevent anything from changing.

As Sinister states, Anakin can't go back without acknoledging his mistakes and dealing whith the consequences, so he choses to embrace lie after lie to live with what he's doing, and avoid taking any blame. Anyone who doesn't agree with his self-serving deceptions is his enemy, to either be controlled (Padme) or destroyed (Obi-Wan).

 

Honestly, I don't decipher an older Jedi from a youngling Jedi. Every single Jedi, including the younglings, understood the risk of being a Jedi. It would be terrible planning on the part of Sidious to leave the younglings alive, they would grow older and attempt to overthrow Sidious and Vader.

Right now, I'm really trying to get into Anakin's head. I'm trying to understand what his justification was for becoming a Sith Lord. In the end it seems to be simply Padme. But as I mentioned earlier, he tries to play it off as a stitution of convenence.

If Anakin was truly a Jedi of course, he would have allowed Padme to pass into the force. But through the movies you are shown that A) Anakin is far from a true Jedi and B) the Jedi aren't very thrilled with Anakin. It's frustrating to me because I want to know how Anakin got into this mind set of killing the Jedi, it's got to be deeper than fear of losing Padme, the Jedi alienating him, Kenobi's teachings should have had more of an effect on him. If someone has an interesting, deep take on this I'm all ears.

 

It's no simplier than Palpatine telling Anakin that the Jedi are relentless. They'll come after the two of them and they won't stop until they're dead. So it's best to get them before they get you. Because if Palpatine dies, the knowledge of the dark side dies with him.

 

It's Anakin making premonitions through the force because he is in fear of loss.

 

What? So you think Anakin didn't take revenge out on the Tuskens?

 

Revenge is a selfish, self-consumed act. The only recipient of any so-called justice served via revenge is the one performing the act. There is no judge and jury, only an executioner.

Luke, a self-consumed young man, becomes selfless after his training when he risks his life to save his friends and then his father. His father, selfish to the core, achieves personal redemption by saving the son who's seemingly failed mission was to save him.

When Anakin lashes out and gains personal retribution, he achieves revenge and is subsequently enslaved as a Sith Apprentice. When Anakin (as Vader) finally lets go of his all consuming self interest and risks his own mortal life to save his tortured son, he is forever saved -- and the Jedi return.

 

Anakin Skywalker:

Until the age of 9 was a slave.
- During the time he had a normal loving mother-son relationship
- Feelings of Anger, Fear, Pride and Jealously developed
- Apparently, a wonderful, good kid at heart
Taken from his mother to be trained in the Jedi arts
- Became accepted into a new family, the Jedi
- Obiwan Kenobi became Mentor, Father, Brother, Friend
- Spent nearly everyday together
- Anakin did not see mother until visions appeared of her death 10 years after he left her
- Obiwan Kenobi- Questionable mentoring? A model Jedi himself, the downfall of Anakin Skywalker continues to baffle me, Could it be simply be that Obiwan's teachings could not overcome Anakin's fundamental behaviors of Anger, Fear, Pride and Jealousy?
- Fell deeply in love with Padme,love of Anakin's life, also, mother died
- Friendship with Supreme Chancellor Palpatine effected him, on what level? How much did he care for him? Apparently a whole lot. He told things to Palpatine that he couldn't even tell to Obiwan. Which leads to where did the lack of trust break down in Obiwan's and Anakin's relationship? When/Where did Anakin decide that he couldn't tell Obiwan everything? What did he fear? Though a model Jedi, what made Anakin think Obiwan wouldn't always have his back?
- After seeing the death of Padme, decided he would do everything in his power to save her.
- Murder his Jedi Family
- Attempt to kill his mentor, father, brother, friend
- Sell his soul to the devil, and become the arch enemy of the Jedi, a Sith Lord.




Well after writing all of that, I really now fell like Obiwan should take the blunt of the blame for Anakin's fall. Also, unhealthy obession with Padme? How could one person love another person so much? To do what Anakin did means he was so in love with this women that....you can't even put it into words of how much he loved her.

Thoughts?

 

He did take revenge on the Tusken Raiders. But he did so as the son of a woman killed by Tuskens. He kills Dooku as a Jedi Knight who took an act of revenge. His mindset in both situations were different. The first act was blood for blood. His later act was just cold blooded. When he attacked the Tuskens, he didn't stop. He didn't hesitate. He just killed every single ****** ****** that moved. When he killed Dooku, he just executed him. No trial. No debate. He stopped to think. He was conflicted. Confused. And when he was done, he was regretful. When he killed the Tuskens, he had a look of simmering anger and then vented his anger again. He showed no remorse for killing the Tuskens. He just let go of his emotions and regretted that he was still a Jedi in training.

See, Anakin's love was unhealthy in several ways. First and foremost, he was nine years old. Ten years passed and they were never around each other. All he could do, was think about her.

Methos: "Does the term complusive obsessive mean anything to you?"

If you're in love with someone you haven't seen in ten years, seek help. It's one thing if you two were around each other a lot, but ten years apart and you're still thinking about someone, it's time to check into a nice padded room. Even my aunt said that was rather disturbing as she had dealt with someone in the same manner. Second part, killing children! Gotta tell you, that's not that attractive unless you're Charles Manson. No sane, rational person will or should kill to protect their loved ones. Willingly. We're not talking self defense from a burglar or a rapist. We're talking about selling your soul to the devil for power, but a side effect is killing a ****load of people and betraying all the good things there are about you. Third issue, accepting people die. It's nature. You can't stop nature. Delay it, yes. Bird Flu=nature. AIDS=nature. Cancer=nature. Ebola=nature. What do they have in common? All are fatal and are nearly incurrable.

He was so in love that he threw everything away, killed hundreds, sold his soul. Not right. It's disturbing. It went beyond loving her and into wanting to possess her. To keep her. He was being selfish. He did all of this for his own benefit and not for her. Worse, it became all about the power. So he chokes her.

Yeah, lovely.

 

Anakin's torment came from himself. They were not induced by anyone. Look at some of the facts:

He could tell his Mother was in grave trouble.

He acted on impulse.

He could tell Padme was going to die.

Now that's not to say Sidious couldn't tell that also and just wanted Anakin to twist in the wind. But, Anakin's visions came from himself.

 

Obi-Chron posted:______________________

Anakin's dream was of one possible future, the most probable one based upon the wayward Jedi's recent actions. He was shown the end point of this current path. If he did not alter his steps, what he saw would certainly come to be. Anakin obviously interpreted the dream wrongly, focusing as Sinister often lectures us, upon himself and his immediate surroundings instead of on the bigger galactic picture. Anakin cannot get outside of himself, of his fears, wants and needs.

The more egotistical and possessive Anakin's actions, the more Palpatine's pawn he becomes. Anakin literally gets trapped within himself, unable to escape from his own devolving emotions. This slide becomes overtly manifested at the end of the film when his charred, limbless torso is quite literally imprisoned within life support armor -- a self-consumed AND self-contained Sith, more machine than man -- a very, very angry machine!
____________

Very true, could not have said it better.



LordVader66 Posted______________

Well after writing all of that, I really now fell like Obiwan should take the blunt of the blame for Anakin's fall. Also, unhealthy obession with Padme? How could one person love another person so much? To do what Anakin did means he was so in love with this women that....you can't even put it into words of how much he loved her.
_________________________


You can?t ignorer the very thing that he was a lot happier then he was with his mother.
His entire problem started then he left her. He became very afraid for her, somewhere
along the way. The fears become an obsession to own and control everything.

To say that Obi-Wan should take the blame for it.Why not jinn who discovered him
And.who gave Kenobi the task to train him in an order that seems to have corrupted the gentle soul
that was Anakin.