Anakin's Visions: From Palpatine or The Force?

-I understand where you're coming from in trying to understand why Anakin would what he did in the last half of ROTS. But at some point, I just don't care about the whys and wherefores; trying to understand in order to explain him can veer into, I think, sympathy and rationalizations. Not that I think that's what your doing but a general trend in trying to figure him out and unlock the key to what he did.

Like Jeffery Dahmer or Ed Gein, Anakin has a very sincere rationalization for his actions. But like those pychos, I feel it's less a matter of understanding Anakin's mindset than recognizing the behavior, stoping that behavior, and bringing him to account for his actions. People can do things for what they think are good reasons, but that doesn't make it any less heinous - some crimes have no noble reason that will explain everthing, or have only a reason like "she didn't have dinner ready" which seems incomprehensible as a justification of an action. For Anakin, it is more than loss of Padme that drives him. His own flawed character, his mommy issues, the giant chip on his shoulder - all these and more are in the mix of creating Anakin's mindset. But in the end, he went forward with his acts - after that, the reasons are, interesting, but beside the point. His victims are still just as dead.

Yes, every Jedi understood they were in a high risk profession. But dying in combact, or on a dangerous mission, or as a child is fundamentally different from dying in a systematic genocide performed for political advantage. And ROTS does a good job of showing that after he turns, the "all for Padme" reasoning is nothing but a conveinent cover for Anakin; it excuses the slaughter at the Jedi temple, the execution of the Trade Federation on Mustafar, and at the end, Anakin's real reason for keeping his "new powers" - they become the end, and not just the means.

And maybe O-W's teachings didn't "take" for no other reason than they were not the teachings Anakin wanted to hear. It is signifigant that he tells Palpatine things he won't tell O-W - Palps is his true father figure; O-W wouldn't sympathize with Anakin over the Tusken slaughter like Padme or Palpatine. O-W would tell Anakin that what he did was wrong, not massage his ego and offer forgiveness without responsibility.

 

Anakin spoke to Palpatine about the Tuskens, does that not say anything? Or do you believe he simply talked to him to let out the Jedi training issues he was having?

Sorry if this comes out defensive, I'm not trying to be that at all. I am simply asking your honest opinion because I'm almost understanding your point of view.

 

Well, he did say after killing Dooku, "I shouldn't have. It's not the Jedi way." His mother certainly instilled values of good and bad, since in TPM he's described as helping others with no ulterior motive. From those examples, Anakin knew both the Jedi Code of right and wrong, and a non-Jedi value system. That's why I think he grabbed hold of the idea that the Jedi were traitors as justification for their extermination. He knew that even if his turn saved his wife, his actions went agains everything he'd been taught about right and wrong.

 

Do we know how much the loss of his Mother effected Anakin's behavior towards Padme? In the movies he comments "I won't lose you the way I lost my Mother." Could you say that was the begining of it all?

Thinking about it more and reading other's posts make me think of Anakin's turn like this.


Due to force visions that came true about the death of his mother, Anakin refuses to let his wife die. While Mace and Co. go to visit Palpatine, Padme and Anakin share a moment. Anakin realizes that he loves Padme so much he is going to help a Sith Lord, climaxing in the single tear he sheds before leaving the temple. After being knighted Darth Vader, he is no longer a Jedi, the Jedi Code is no more. He lets go of everything he has been holding back, he now feeds off his anger, hate, jealousy and fear. He no longer has any reason to hold them back, actually the more in touch he is with those feelings the stronger he gets. Except one small problem: a small part of Anakin Skywalker still exists in Darth Vader. It forces Vader to rationalize his behavior in an non-evil context, giving him justification for killing the Jedi and attempting to kill Obiwan. Darth Vader feeds off of the dark emotions, but Anakin Skywalker forces rationalization for it all.



Well did I get it right?

 

Yes, it was the latter reason. Palpatine knew something happened, just as Yoda knew. They could both sense it, just as they sensed Anakin's rage on Yavin 4 and Praesitlyn. The only difference is that Palpatine probed Anakin and nudged him into talking about it. Just as he did any other time.

No problem.

And yes, LordVader66. Anakin's fears transfered from Shmi to Padme. Lucas even says as much. That he gets attached to both women and his issues with one becomes the same with the other. That's why Lucas went out of his way with the Tusken Slaughter as it cements his desire to do whatever it takes to become all powerful.

 

I'll definitely agree with that. Anakin definitely knew what he did was wrong, it's why he's so tortured. Even after he justifies to himself why the Jedi should be killed he's still emotional about it all on Mustafar. Somewhere in him he knows it's all crap, knows what Palpatine really is, but he's in too deep.

 

those visions came from the force.
not that i think it deliberately gave anakin those visions.

however, anakin shaped those visions, and his fears may have caused him to see what wasn't really there.

from the films, it's actually unclear whether anakin sees padme dying in the first place.
it could be that this vision is the same thing he experienced with his mother.
he didn't actually see his mother dying. he saw her in pain.

perhaps that's what he saw with padme.
naturally, he jumped to conclusions due to his fears.

but this is unclear.

what's clear though is that his visions change.
at first padme and anakin is at the centre of that vision.
padme shouts for anakin...

in the next vision obi wan is there...
did this vision change due to the future changing or because anakin started to influence his visions?
i think the latter, and i think that may be the reason why yoda warns anakin about sensing the future.
not only do you get fractions and incomplete images of what will happen, but it also leaves you in a situation that forces you to interpret an incomplete image.

when you're finally forced to act on that vision, you may actually make things worse.

 

I'd agree with that-he felt powerless at the death of his mother. He used anger and hate to slaughter the Tuskens, which gave him the first taste of using those emotions to give him power. And in ROTS, he looks at Padmes fate only in terms of how it affects him, and leads him to dip into those emotions again to prevent the death of a loved one.
It's interesting when he says "I won't lose you like I lost my mother" - his comments towards Padme on this always reflect on how HE feels, what the loss would do to HIM.

I'd say though that it's not the small part of Anakin still left in Vader that makes him rationalize his actions but rather the need to mislead people. In the ROTS novel, when Padme arrives on Mustafar, he "puts on his Anakin Skywalker face" before meeting her; Vader is now the real self, Anakin Skywalker the Holloween mask.

 

Okay, I am officially in the "almost ready to change my opinion" zone. I'll probably get there soon enough.