Saga Analysis of Yoda's arc

When did he? The only time I saw Luke fighting on Dagobah was when Luke chopped his own head off after Yoda told Luke he didn't need his weapon.

 

When did they say that staying in the sidelines of the Clone Wars was a solution?

What does that got to do with anything? We aren't talking about resisting arrest on the Death Star.

 

Are you saying that the only training that happened on Dagobah was what we saw on screen? That when the movie cuts to the Falcon or Cloud City they simply stop?

 

So why would someone decide to leave that on the cutting room floor? Did it detract from the message of Yoda on Dagobah? What dialogue would support a scene like this?

 

the whole point of the jedi and yoda in the pt vs the ot (including tcw) is that they learned they were on the wrong side of history and that their philosophy was flawed.

 

I agree with you to the point that they realized they made grave errors and adjusted, and there were some flaws in their philosophy. I'm not sure they were on the "wrong side", unless you equate the "wrong side" to the losing side.

 

wrong side meaning they shouldn't have been fighting the republic's wars or anyone's wars. that's the whole point of the pt.

 

According to whom? I never saw that established as a point anywhere. The Jedi philosophy isn't flawed. It's sound. Hence the importance of Luke to pass it on.

That's not a point in the movies. That's like saying they shouldn't be part of the Sith game (except the whole issue is that they don't know it's a Sith game to begin with). The Jedi serve the Republic. Nothing wrong with that, it's a democracy and they were never vigilantes. They are it's justice and peacekeepers. It's who they are. Since the Republic was about to be invaded by the Separatists, it's up to them to do everything they can to prevent it or stop it as soon as possible. War was happening, wether people liked it or not. The Jedi did whatever they could to end the war quickly. Thanks to the Sith, the war stretched for many years. The Jedi actually managed to do their job and end the war by defeating both Dooku and Grievous. The war was finished in that moment as far as everyone was concerned. The problem was that the Sith were behind it all, thus Order 66, thus the Jedi extinction. The problem was never in their ways. That's completely irrelevant to what happened.

 

well you're wrong. the jedi aren't soldiers. they don't fight wars.

 

What an argument...

The Jedi aren't soldiers, but they can fight and do everything they can to protect the Republic,help end the conflict sooner and restore peace once again, as they are meant to.

 

they settle disputes and keep the peace. they should never fight in a war.

 

There should never have been a war.

But "reality" is different, and everyone needs to adapt. The Jedi are no different, and they are doing their job of trying to restore the peace as soon as possible.

 

Blimey some people really don't understand the films well.

Luke rejects the Jedi way and instead embraces love to save his father.

Yoda and Obi never fully accepted that and insisted Luke had to kill Vader, refusing to believe Anakin could be redeemed.

In the end their beliefs don't change completely, they still think it is acceptable to have Luke kill Vader for the greater good.

Luke realises that is a mistake and that he could turn him with Love, he appreciates the Jedi beliefs but realises they are wrong.

Seriously go watch ROTJ again.

 

No, he doesn't. He follows the Jedi way. Luke has compassion for his father. But it was his selflessness and plea for help that made Anakin return.

 

Only slightly. Family love/compassion is forbidden for Jedi.

 

No, it isn't. The Jedi encourage unconditional love, compassion. Not attachment or love for a few. Luke had compassion for Anakin. When he saw that he couldn't save his father and that he was starting to fall to the dark side due to his attachment to Leia, he threw away his saber and let go of everything.

 

attachment is forbidden. war for the jedi is wrong insofar as they aren't fighting for themselves or their beliefs. the jedi's war is against the dark side and the sith. in the pt and tcw the jedi are fighting in a war for the wrong reasons. the republic had an army to fight the war and the jedi became involved when they shouldn't have. palps knew this would start to corrupt them and their beliefs in peace.

like the samurai and western gunslinger sheriffs, the jedi fight and kill only as a last resort. in a large scale war they actively participate in mass carnage and death which is the opposite of their beliefs. the only exception of course is the destruction of the sith. like the samurai and sheriffs they have a duty only to destroy an enemy bent on complete evil. that is their responsibility, hence eliminating the sith.

this is their double-edged sword. the must destroy the sith. it is their duty. this is why they tell luke he must destroy vader even though bringing peace is their mandate. the only way they feel luke can bring peace is destroy the sith. luke uses their training and finds an alternative they didn't think existed... the redemption of vader.

 

No, they are fighting to protect the democracy they serve and swore to protect.

The Sith are one of the many enemies of the Jedi. Conflicts don't exist because of the Sith, nor do they end with them.

Again, staying in the sidelines when they could help save lines and end the conflict sooner is not a solution. Not what they should have done. It goes against their mandate.

 

From another perspective, Luke and Obi-Wan actually made the same choices at the end of ROTS and ROTJ.

In ROTS, Anakin defeats Dooku and then kills his helpless opponent. He remarks that this is not the Jedi way. Later, Windu seems to defeat Sidious and then attempts to kill his apparently helpless opponent. Anakin, again, tells Windu that this is not the Jedi way.

On Mustafar, Kenobi defeats Anakin, but he then refrains from making a killing blow, even to spare Anakin the agony of burning to death. Now, you can dissect Kenobi's motives for doing this, but at the end of the day, Kenobi does follow the Jedi way. Unlike Anakin and Mace, he won't strike down a helpless, defeated opponent.

In ROTJ, Luke makes the same choice. He doesn't win through sheer pacifism ... he battles and defeats Vader. What he doesn't do is kill him after he's been rendered helpless. The fight's done. It's over. To strike that last blow would not be the Jedi way. He makes the same choice Obi-Wan did. But while Obi-Wan probably lived to bitterly regret his decision, in Luke's case he saved the galaxy by making the "Jedi" choice.

Luke didn't repudiate Jedi philosophy, he validated the best understanding of it.

 

Except he's not helpless (unlike Dooku and Vader) and all three of them know it. Anakin telling that it's not the Jedi way is just his fear of losing Sidious' knowledge speaking. At the end, he tells the truth: "I need him."

 

I don't agree about that "all three of them know it" bit. Mace hesitates for a good long while, and is clearly struggling with the decision. That's not how you behave when you believe yourself to be still locked in mortal combat. "You are under arrest ... my lord." "You have lost." And Anakin is in a complete panic that Mace will kill Palpatine, which suggests that he really believes Palpatine to be in mortal danger and is no longer able to defend himself.

It's true that Palpatine is not actually helpless, but Mace has stopped fighting and Palpatine is begging for his life. If killing a helpless opponent is not the Jedi way, I doubt that killing a surrendered opponent is either.

 

And then he shoots lightning from his hands.

Palpatine is in mortal danger (in the sense that Mace can kill him), but he's not helpless or weak as he claims.

But he's lying, that's my point. Mace knows that and Anakin is afraid of losing his alleged knowledge to save Padmé.

 

I understand what's motivating Anakin to say that it isn't the Jedi way, but that doesn't mean that his statement isn't true. It just means that Anakin was a pretty quick study with that whole Sith "lie by telling the truth" thing.

My main point is: why is Mace hesitating if it's such a clear cut situation? To me, it's very clear that he's struggling with the decision. There's some part of him saying "you shouldn't do this." I'm not even saying that Mace was wrong to do what he did. I'm just saying that it was not the Jedi Ideal.

 

ok but that's literally what sw and gl tell us.