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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Ancient / Medieval History Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by The Hellhammer, Sep 11, 2013.

  1. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    My fascination with ancient history began fairly early on, I was less then 10 years old and started reading the legendary Asterix comics. Quickly after that, I started paying attention to good ol' historical epics that Hollywood used to pump out - I sat transfixed while watching Ben Hur, Spartacus, Quo Vadis, The Ten Commandments and then later on the newer stuff like Gladiator.
    Finally, now almost ten years ago, I began collecting and reading books by ancient authors, contemporary historians, watching tons of documentaries and lectures, audiobooks, blogs - anything I could get my hands on concerning pretty much any period in the ancient (and later on medieval) period.
    I was absolutely fascinated by it all and that's a love that has only increased in the past decade. No matter my other obligations, I have pretty much made it a habit to research/read/watch anything dealing with history parallel to the other stuff I'm working on.

    Fact is often stranger than fiction and it's damn awesome and addictive, hah.

    I just figured it would be interesting to have a thread for some general ancient history discussions, since I'm sure there are other history buffs on these boards as well :)

    So to get things started, I thought I'd delve into an issue that has long been bothering me - the way history is taught.
    I never had any trouble with it in school and I started reading contemporary texts and accounts rather early on. They are not only educational and a unique window into another era, but they are in 90% of cases damn awesome stories. For that reason, I was mildly shocked to find that people found it boring.
    You've got battles! Intrigue! Excellent moral lessons, wise advice and downright hilarious situations all over the place. Plots and schemes, characters of all kinds that no writer could come up with no matter how hard he tried. How could that be boring to anyone?
    The answer, of course, is quite obvious. Instead of telling students of the wider context, of the events and characters and the actual point of how one thing led to another - teachers are forcing kids to learn dates and years and recite them. They take something that is not only interesting but also happens to be true for the most part. They are instead presenting stale information, and not to mention biased information that (very often) simply feeds a sort of wider political agenda of presenting oneself in the best possible light.
    Now the silliest thing is that the real story usually presents a far more flattering version than the altered one. Even when that is not the case, downright lying or twisting the facts hardly makes things better.
    It's really a shame that such an awesome discipline has been neglected for so long as far as the wider public is concerned, but luckily there seems to be a rise in the production of quite interesting new works with new evidence and new views for all kinds of periods :)

    So, any fellow history buffs out there? What's your favorite period, Empire, person, army, event, city...?

    Also, here's a picture of a Parthian Cataphract because Cataphracts are damn badass.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    Medieval period in Europe -- although my current area of interest is Poland in that period, partially because it's in my heritage, partially because I had the good fortune to read through James Michener's novel Poland which gives a touching sketchbook of its last thousand years. If there's anything that has a capacity to break your heart, it's reading about Polish history. Honourable people like you wouldn't believe, principled to a fault -- but stubborn and dumb at some points, so much so that they wound up ripping their own country to pieces thanks to clinging to some of those noble principles.

    Put it this way, I think Poland's national character is probably best summed up in the figure of Tadeusz Kosciusko. Some of the War of Independence buffs around here might recognise the name. Basically, he was George Washington's chief army engineer, and responsible in a large way for some of the colonials' successes because he was gifted at logistics. Jefferson called him "As pure a son of liberty as I have ever encountered." Kosciusko wasn't American; he came to fight alongside the colonials solely because of the sentiments expressed in the Declaration of Independence. And at the end of the war, when he left for his native Poland again, a good hundred years before Lincoln was breathing a word about emancipation, he expressed in his will that his property in the US ought be given to his slaves who worked that area, and moreover, that they be made free men. But he went back to Poland to fight for that country's independence in a doomed rebellion. He was kept in prison for several years, and eventually lived out his life an exile in France.

    I really want to pick up God's Playground, which is meant to be about the best history of medieval Poland in the English language available. There are, of course, Polish texts, but the language barrier is pretty formidable and has kept much of what was a surprisingly enlightened society even in the medieval period - for example, Poland offered sanctuary and reasonably generous quality of life (for the period) to the Jews of Europe when they were suffering persecution elsewhere on the contienent. Tragically, that's a big reason why a massive proportion of Europe's Jewry that subsequently went to the concentration camps was taken from Poland in particular ... although, again, more Polish civilians are said to have helped Jews escape the Nazis than any other nation during the war.
     
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  3. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    And since we're talking badass cavalry, I give you the Polish winged hussars:

    [​IMG]

    These guys could break infantry formations because of fluting in the "spines" of the wings which howled eerily during a charge.
     
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  4. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    I like Ancient Egypt a lot, though more for the splendour of the architecture and the culture itself rather than the history of it.

    Ancient Greece & Rome are interesting too.

    I am fortunate to live in a country with a long an rich history, it is a shame schools only focus on certain aspects of it (mainly just 1066, the Tudors, the Stuarts & the Victorians) rather than try and cover more. It was interesting watching the White Queen series on TV and realising how little the War of the Roses is really ever covered in documentaries or in school, all you ever learn is it ended at Bosworth in 1485 when Richard III died and Henry VII became King and started the Tudor dynasty. The other monarchs and events that preceded all that are actually very interesting, I read up on the people depicted in the series as a result of seeing it and now want to know more of that time period.
     
  5. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    King Alfred rocked.
     
  6. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    My interest lies in ancient Babylon and Assyria. Both Akkadian city states enjoyed inteserting empires, some of the very first in known history.
     
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  7. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    There region where my country is has a rather rich history as well. I say "region" because things were happening here way before there was such a thing as "Serbia" or any of it's predecessor states. The region is basically a crossroads between East and West, North and South. I think that more or less every Empire that was a big deal in Europe at any point in this planet's existance passed through this area :p
    Emperor Constantine the Great, for example, was born in Naissus - modern day Niš, in the south of Serbia. The biggest problem here as far as history is concerned is that there are very few people who view it objectively. Nationalism is strong here and some stories are idealised to the point of absurdity, while others are downright made up. Which is quite a shame, since once you manage to dig past the layer of such foolish ideas, you find a treasure trove of great people who need no idealisation to be badass.

    My first love is Roman history, absolutely love the period and pretty much all of the aspects of the Roman Empire are fascinating to me. The Twelve Ceasars by Suetonius is one of my favorite works. Even if it's biased when dealing with certain Emperors, I find it a great piece of literature. In the end, even from the type of bias itself you can learn quite a bit hah. The Roman military machine, almost goes without saying, is absolutely fascinating.

    Battle of Alesia would have to be one of my favorite examples. It was a battle against the Gauls during Julius Ceasar's conquest. The Gauls were united (which was a rather rare thing) under Vercingetorix, who was by all accounts an all around great guy with some forward thinking ideas. Managing to convince a lot of tribes to fight together is an achievement in of itself. That didn't help him out when Ceasar came for him though. The Romans surrounded the city of Alesia, which rested on top of a hill. The Legions built a series of fortifications, walls, trenches, towers and artillery all around the hill, besieging Vercingetorix and the Gauls inside. There were daily skirmishes while the Romans built these fortifications and at one point a group of Gauls managed to slip by and ride off to get reinforcements. Expecting a large force to show up behind him shortly, Ceaser built a second set of fortifications, this one to keep the incoming Gauls at bay. So now the Legions were boxed in on both sides, besieging Alesia while the Gaul backup besieged them. It was a pretty ****ed up situation, to say the least :p The Romans were quite outnumbered. Ceasar had around 60,000 men. In Alesia itself, some 80,000 Gauls were under siege plus the local population of the town itself. The relief army that came in behind Ceasar was roughly 60,000 men. So, when all hell broke loose, Ceaser sent his cavalry (around 6,000 guys) to attack the 60,000 guys from behind. Crazily enough, it worked and the fun part is that such a gesture surprised both the Romans and the Gauls. The Romans managed to rout the reinforcements and pretty much slaughtered them all. Ceaser writes how his men were exhausted from so much hacking and slashing at the end of the day.

    Seeing this, Vercingetorix was forced to surrender the next day, without a fight. Ceasar, who was overall a rather alright guy himself, accepted the surrender but also could not afford to be so nice this time around. He often spared his enemies and showed mercy, even offering them a position of power from where they could serve him. But Vercingetorix was too big of a prize to treat nicely, and Ceasar had his political career to think of. So, the unfortunate Vercingetorix was basically kept in a dungeon for years until he was unceremoniously choked to death before cheering crowds in Rome, during Julius Ceasar's Triumph.
     
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  8. Saintheart

    Saintheart Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 2000
    What is an inteserting empire? No snark, I genuinely want to know.
     
  9. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I love anything to do with the Crusades.
     
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  10. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
  11. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Nov 20, 2012
    I liked his portrayal in Kingdom of Heaven.
     
  12. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Have you heard of a two book historical fiction series by Rebecca Tingle focusing on Alfred the Great's daughter Athelflaed? The first is titled The Edge on the Sword and follows a year of her life just before her marriage to Elthelred of Mercia. The second book, Far Traveler, focuses more on her daughter Aelfwyn but Athelflaed herself does feature in the early chapters.

    Interesting you mention Richard III, since he's mainly known for having (supposedly) ordered his nephews' murders. One book I've read, Bertram Fields' Royal Blood: Richard III and the Mystery of the Princes, was a fascinating read, but Fields doesn't really (to me at least) indicate whether he believes the King ordered the murders or someone else did and tried to pin it on Richard.

    One thing I've never understood about William the Conqueror was why he settled England on his second son William Rufus and gave the Duchy of Normandy to his elder son Robert. I've read that the King and Robert didn't get along very well, but Robert was still the oldest son.
     
  13. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 4, 2012
    That is arguably the only redeeming quality of that movie In my eyes. It really didn't sit well with me.
     
  14. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2001
    I love ancient history of all types but don't consider myself an expert in any.
    I love the Greek and Roman stuff of course.
    I have a particular interest in Phoenician history, stemming from my fascination with Hannibal, Carthage, etc.


    On a related note, I just bought a coin from Tyre (circa 360 BC).
     
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  15. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    It's an interesting empire typed on a phone. :p
     
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  16. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Byzantine history is pretty crazy with the constant number of co-rulers, but still interesting, too. I was just reading about Empress Irene; she played a role in the icon controversy at the end of the 700s. She was a venerator of icons, or an "iconodule," but her husband Emperor Leo IV was an "iconoclast."Leo initially had a moderate policy toward iconodules, but those policies became harsher in the last month before his death. Supposedly, he refused to sleep with Irene ever again after he discovered icons in her possession.

    Of course, what really sticks out in reading about Irene is that she ordered her son, the rightful Emperor, blinded and imprisoned because she didn't want to relinquish power.
     
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  17. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Ancient Chinese history is totally awesome, pseudo-fictionalized or otherwise.

    Other than that, though, my historical interests have all sort of begun to settle in on the history of math - and due to my peculiar biases as regards the field, mostly post-19th century developments.
     
  18. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    Jade Empire happened right?
     
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  19. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Yeah, absolutely, right around the same time all those things in Romance of the Three Kingdoms that aren't in the Records happened.
     
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  20. Kiki-Gonn

    Kiki-Gonn Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Feb 26, 2001
    This morning I watched a BBC documentary on Archimedes while I ran on the treadmill.
     
  21. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 1998
    I was interested in medieval history even before I joined the SCA and discovered how much fun it is to wear armor and hit people with sticks.

    Period literature is fascinating too. I've read Canterbury Tales, La Morte d'Arthur, the Faerie Queen, Beowulf, Iliad, Odyssey, Don Quixote, Orlando Furioso, and I just started Orlando Innamorato.
     
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  22. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    DONT PURSUE LU BU


    I'm going to make an actual post later.
     
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  23. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    As it happens, I just wrote a post yesterday answering the question of who my favorite Roman emperors were. I'll re-post it here, I guess.

     
  24. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    You never did answer the question :p
     
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  25. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    I've always found one of the most interesting questions, as on over-arching topical concern, was managing transitions of power in pre-modern polities. While rules like primogeniture were (theoretically) simple enough to minimize conflict, they also raised the prospects of long runs of terrible governance. The Ethiopian model, by contrast, helped with both consensus building among the elite and eliminating toxic candidates, but did so at the cost of devolving a great deal of authority to the nobility.* Do you guys favor any model in particular?

    *All male lineal descendants of the current King were equally eligible to rule. The actual heir among these candidates had to be designated by a committee of senior leaders of national institutions (eg army, church, etc) upon the death of the current ruler.