Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.

  1. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    CSWE seems to be an odd source in this since I always assumed being a Force ghost was being one with the Force. Not denying it. Sith ghosts seemed more like a denial thing.
  2. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Apologies again for bumping this up. Don't mean to spam this topic but got a possible topic of discussion involving Killiks based on something from The Old Republic. I am starting to wonder if Luke's theory on the Killiks going out of control might be true after all and was why the Celestials locked them away in the Unknown Regions for their actions. The reason for this is a critter in TOR called the Vulagool. These are sentient scavengers on Alderaan that travel in packs on the planet and have an unknown reason to hate/fear Killiks. It might be because of the Joiner reason but the Codex mentions theories on why this might be the case.

    Now, a lot of this is speculation as the Codex says so but it says about these critters:
    Perhaps, the Vulagools are inhabitants of another world when the Killiks burst forth from Alderaan and began conquering other worlds like what they did to Alsakan? Maybe the plight of these other races is what drew the ire of the Celestials? Doing their work is one thing but to endlessly expand and conquering other races as well as possibly assimilating them into the hive mind is perhaps the last straw. Maybe it was during this period that the Killiks did their attempted 'invasion' of Korriban when the Red Sith fought them off? My own theory is that the Killiks were loyal servants until Abeloth went psycho and started causing infighting amongst the Celestial servant races. So, maybe she messed up the hive mind and gave the Killik an imperative to expand without regard and thus they began consuming other worlds resources and sentients such as the Vulagools?

    Also, I expect some new topic of discussion might come from the Terror from Beyond update. Found two Codex entries from one of the website guides that kept a Codex section. One covers "Asation" and the other covers "Gree Hypergates". The former has some new Gree technical feats as they apparently xenoformed Asation and littered it with genetic experiments to maintain an artificial ecosystem. The latter doesn't really add that much from what we already know; the gates can transport a person to another part of the planet with a receiving gate OR transport a fleet from one portal to another. Though its suggested that the Operator caste called Gatemasters are said to be the only ones to control it but this might be a cultural bias instead of a fact.

    Anyway, I hope that interests any readers. Will keep an eye out for new content relating to this topic and post it.
  3. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    *sigh* I want all TOR lore.. in one handy file..or updated dialogue files with all latest expansions included.

    sorry, desperately missng lots of TOR goodness due to lack of time to play it. but interesting points.

    by any chance, nobody here would know how to grab dialogue files of actual TOR? and yeah mine is not up to date sadly, stopped playing months ago.
  4. dewback_rancher Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2009
    star 4
    Seems about everyone has, sadly. They added a group-finder tool a la WoW, and it's essentially useless because there are no other people using the thing.

    I sat there in a queue for a Flashpoint for three hours yesterday until I quit playing. So getting to see some of the content has become essentially nigh-impossible (or at least prohibitively difficult) even for those who do still play the game.
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    Getting back to what we talked about earlier: Gree-Kwa War

    going through my booknotes I found this:

    FOTJ Apocalypse:
    Abeloth started the Gree/Kwa war… before that both were Celestial servant races like Killiks. Abeloth started a war that lead to Gree sacrificing Kwa lizards on an altar to her.

    As Raynar Thul saw in the Killik histories and art pieces they studied and showed him. So Abeloth corrupted the Gree, not the Kwa! Yet the Kwa ripped unnatural wounds into the fabric of the universe (as per Book of Sith) equally displeasing the Ones/Celestials.

    So.. were both corrupted to fight each other? Seems though the Gree started it, Kwa defended themselves only and got corrupted in the process of fighting then probably. Maybe the Son's influence was too strong and they fell out of balance getting more destructive than creative and in line with Daughter.

    So Kwa got punished, Abeloth defeated and imprisoned. But what of the Gree? No devolution? no punishment as severe as that for others? Why? or did they get one we do not yet kow?still they are prominent and can aid younger species and even later in TOR the Republic, like in its founding days with pre-Republic Coruscant etc. as per TOR.
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  6. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Maybe the Gree's punishment was they all got given tentacle arms to remind them of Abeloth. :p
    To be fair, when I still played WoW, nobody used its group finder either.

    That was why I quit WoW. :p
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Sep 30, 2012
  7. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    I certainly wish there was some means of gathering all the TOR lore stuff into one place. Haven't had a chance to play the game yet so I get things mostly from scraps :(

    Well, the Killik mural doesn't say its Gree or Kwa but its an indicator that it is them considering we have heard before of tentacled beings who hated a reptilian race. But the problem is we have no idea who started the conflict. It could equably be the Kwa who caused a ruckus considering Nightsister legends about their Infinity Gates ripping holes in the cosmos. One question it poses also is whether the Infinity Gates were 'given' or 'taken'. By that, I mean whether the technology was something they developed with perhaps the blessing of the Celestials (as they are based on Celestial principles) or did they steal the technology and perhaps revolted by sending Infinity Waves against the other races? Perhaps even Abeloth inspired this to undo the great work of the Architects? Causing dissession by first turning the Kwa against the Gree with the Rakata getting involved and also causing the Killiks to expand out of control? If thats the case, there might have been no reason to punish the Gree as they were an innocent party since they may not have done anything wrong beyond perhaps a few of their number sacrificing Kwa to Abeloth. Regardless, Nightsister myth says the spirits (presumably the Ones or Celestials) turned the Kwa back into 'animals' that were the Kwi.

    And out of the lot, they seemed to be one of the only servant race survivor of those 'ancient and forgotten days'. Even the Killiks got punished. The Kwa became Kwi and the Rakata... well, they revolted and formed their Infinite Empire which eventually collapsed. The Gree seemed to had just stayed in their little corner of space until their technical base was pretty much lost. Makes me wonder though how they survived the Rakata... did the Rakata just leave them cornered in their Enclave or did perhaps the Gree put up fight with their advanced tech to the point the Infinite Empire considered a waste of resources to conquer them? We know the Gree aren't fighters so they would have had to use their technology to accomplish such a feat. TOR mentions in the recent update that the Gree lacked a warrior caste and everything was accomplished by military units assembled by the crafter caste or getting the services of a 'black bisector'.
  8. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    I and friends created a hub for collecting all things TOR lore before it was released and began, but it soon fell behind and we had not the time to do it all and catalogue it all like those fansites who got featured by the official TOR website and all. so the project stopped sadly too early.

    an interesting valid reading you have there, so it could be the Kwa still, though I doubted that initially cause they are so peaceful and wise in their EU appearances whereas Gree are more dark/cold I think. hmm... Kwa/kwi certainly never thought they did any wrong.

    as for Gree surviving the Rakata? guess Rakata do not want to mess with a species that can possibly too shoot infinity waves then at them or even worse. A species that has access to wormhole technology that is beyond the Rakata's needs for homing in on forcestrong worlds. Gree certainly can kick Rakata ass easily even without warriors.wouldn't even wonder if they have allies in the UR or can control some of the monsters there the Celestials locked away and release them at will against Rakata.

    so.. more a pocket civilisation like the Sharu who chose to stay small but without fear or degeneration like the Sharu did.or same reason the Empire never absorbed the Chiss but allied with them (in TOR and in Movie Era!) allies?

    still the Celestials wanted new servants as Jeedai.. or Jedi and Sith as per Tython and the collection of forceusers. so they kinda forgot/ignored the Gree too there giving them up kinda
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  9. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Shame about the project, would have been nice to had seen that continue :(

    On the Kwa, I haven't read their initial appearance but were they benevolent? Or did they just show them and left things in the air? I know one would feel sympathy for the Kwi. Mind you, even if the Kwa were the aggressors, it doesn't necessarily mean they were all the bad guys. It could have been a minor group that were in power that started abusing the Infinity Gate technology and sadly their actions damned the rest of their race. On the Gree... well, most we got from them was one of the Journals I think and all it said about them was that they were willing to give scraps of their technology but demanded a high amount of payment. Bear in mind though, this was during the Empire's reign... the Gree could have been completely different long ago. Their language and expressions are certainly quite alien so its also possible that morality and stuff might not been seen the same way as humans. Though there was a Gree in the Empire ending for Terror from Beyond who asked the Sith for help in propping him up as a dictator on Asation... so, evidently there are Gree who are power hungry if thats the case. But on the whole question about who was the aggressor in the Gree-Kwa conflict or whether they were both equably were responsible is all sadly speculation at this stage. The only thing though that made me think the Kwa were the 'bad guys' is the Book of Sith line about the Spirits calling the Rakata against them and being responsible for turning the Kwa 'back into animals'. Mind you, thats all thinking whether the Celestials were even good guys in this story... they could have decided to turn the Kwa into Kwi for whatever reason they wanted.

    On the Je'daii issue, my personal speculation is that after the failure in their earlier servants, the Celestials wanted beings more grounded in the Force to serve the balance. I mean, the Je'daii unlike their successors are more about balance. Both Light and Dark. No extreme to one side. If the Celestials were all about the Force then they might have followed a similar path and wanted a new race of servants from the younger races to embody such a principle? I really hope Dawn of the Jedi covers the Tho Yo and explores this element since I am really curious if this is the case.
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  10. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    true given the Kwa having been supersoldiers and thus had military and warfare, it is reasonable that they knew agression and all that. the Kwi were kind and nice in COPL and in the Republic comics with Quinlan Vos on Dathomir, they too were kind and protective of their old tech. How they were back in the distant past, no idea so you could be on to something there.

    I agree Kwa can be at fault, or both are. I mean, if Gree were starting it, they might have seen reason during the conflict that Abeloth played them, redeemed themselves and the Kwa were those who did not start it but were not willing to stop and thus the ones who had to be put down, with Gree willing to end it despite having started it. still all speculation sadly indeed.

    Also another interesting tidbit from FOTJ: In Sinkhole station strange aliens are seen there as skeletons and at times it is unclear if those were prisoners, remains of people tending the station once in distant past or even the first Mindwalkers of a long long time ago before the current ones joined them. Among these aliens are Rakata, maybe even Gree, Kwa or Killiks remains, or as still endless dying beyond shadows beings?

    So does that give us any hint to the conflicts or at which point who was friends/enemy with who? If Killiks build the Maw/Sinkhole... and Rakata are imprisoned there on Sinkhole station (if not ventured there later with some becoming Mindwalkers?) does that mean Rakata were enemies with them already before Abeloths capture and thus lend credit to the fact that Killiks imprisoned Abeloth but Rakata or their coming rise started with Abeloth indeed?

    too vague it all still is I know but one can dream ;)
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  11. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Could equally be as simple as them just being Rakatan Joiners who got left there after the Killiks had finished building it.

    Though I prefer your idea. :p
  12. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Indeed, one can dream :D

    I remember the Sinkhole section but my assumption was that it was Killiks and Joiners involved in its construction. They seemed to had been involved in labour work and considered the Ones role with the hive mind they were quite capable of doing the task themselves whilst being augmented by Force powers. Sources I think mostly say the Killiks were involved the construction of Centerpoint and Sinkhole though we do know the Rakata did visit the Corellian system. Mostly because we know they enslaved the tri-species inhabitants of Corellia and that there are inbred slave Selonians in the Rakatan refuge in the Unknown Regions according to The Unknown Regions. Perhaps some stragglers got left behind and taken in by the Killik hive mind?

    EDIT: Curses, foiled by Zorr :p But yeah its possible they might be people left behind that became victims of Killik 'hospitality'.
    Last edited by Cronal, Sep 30, 2012
  13. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    I think we can assume that Abeloth escaped circa 30,000 BBY to cause whatever mess had the Celestials replaced by the Rakata as Galactic Overlords. I imagine that the Gree and Kwa became technologically significant enough to encounter the Celestials, and then released Abeloth, for them to be known as the 'servants' of Abeloth.
  14. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Speaking of Abeloth's servants, having only finally finished Apocalypse last week, I'm curious what Abeloth has actually, well, 'done' when she's previously been released that had such apocalyptic affect on a galactic scale.

    I mean, sure, the more carnage she causes, the more fear she creates, the stronger she grows in power, the bigger the chaos she can unleash -- eg supernovae or star system destroying Force Storms rather than just a volcano. But if so, I'd like to hear about such catastrophes and/or see some unexplained events retconned as her handiwork.

    On the other hand, are we meant to assume she kept possessing more and more people, until there was an entire 'race' of thousands of 'Abeloths' going to war with millions of equally hive minded Killiks? But again, if so, I'd like to hear -- and see -- the consequences of this beyond just a few murals in a remote insect dung heap.

    Sure, the Ones could have covered everything up and/or repaired the damage, but that's dull.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Sep 30, 2012
  15. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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  16. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    release Abeloth implies she was imprisoned before escaping to stirr chaos.. thus, her last prison was the Maw, what was her prison before that? or do we assume 30000 BBY is when all the stuff with her trying to become Mother etc. transpired? That could be even farther back in the timeline with lots of conflicts and end of times scenarios in between.. or else she'd just be the bringer of chaos that was released once in the distant past and now in present.. and not in between. so we need multiple cataclysms. so what are her other prisons?

    which leads me to my other pettheory: A lineage of Chosen Ones

    -the Jedi distress signal the Ones use in Mortis trilogy is 2000-3000 years old!
    -Warfare Guide: Xendor was on Mortis, met them and turned down the Chosen One role he was offered
    -Father and his children came to Mortis... were they Celestials once or rather mortal and became Celestials? if so, WHEN?
    -FOTJ: Abeloth tries to recreate the celestial family for her own ends, whereas Luke wonders if the Mortis roles have to be filled sooner or later or not at all.
    -FOTJ: One can become a Celestial, a Celestial can also become something dark and evil, mortals can become celestials, mortals can also turn into evil abelothesque creatures, etc. as per the whole Minddrinker/Beyond Shadows etc. plot

    What if Father, Son and Daughter were Jedi and came to Mortis ca. 3000BBY and accepted the previous Ones' offer to guard Mortis and take up their roles replacing them?

    What if before them three other Ones existed, similiar in looks maybe since one turns into them or can look however one wants to any species anyway as a One.

    What if Father expected replacement/death and thus a Chosen One to replace him because he knew from experience that this is the natural way? He did it once.

    What if there was an entire line of Chosen Ones, with current ones starting 3000BBY, Xendor being a failed attempt like Anakin Skywalker later on. One day somebody might take up the thrones on Mortis.. or leave fate in the hands of the galaxy instead of on Mortis.

    What if Father, Son and Daughter are roles... the gender is not fixed for the role, and the role can be taken by worthy candidates (think LOST). Not necessarily have they to be a real family or Father/Children trio. These are just the roles. Or are they actual family relations too? Is a Mother essential or not? FOTJ Apocalypse made it sound as if so, and it was an interesting way of thought there. So... did the original MOTHER die/be killed on Mortis and go there with her husband and kids.. or did only Father and kids go there and Mother died before them going to Mortis already? Or did she fail the test of the previous ONES?

    Remember, Abeloth intended a male Lightsider and female darksider for her new ONES.

    And I still wonder if the Mother Machine is more than a machine... and then there are these nice allusions in the Kemp novels about "Mother" that made me initially think a lot about this too and if it is tied to it somehow.

    So if Father is Balance, and his kids are Creation and Destruction (not good and bad, but forces of nature), does Mother then have to be Chaos? And what is this chaos? it is not like Father is order and Chaos is absence of order. Balance encompasses chaos and order both in a natural harmonic balance or ying/yang taoistic cycle of destruction and creation. So a separate entity for Chaos needed? is this where a misreading of Mortis lead to a new figure to be created that might not be needed and throws the entire Mortis analogy out of whack from its original meaning in FOTJ? Or is it still in line with it?

    also of note is that Son and Daughter hardly battle each other often but rather work together in times of need, and otherwise keep to their respective destruction/creation cycles. so what could possibly throw them out of balance?

    so.. back to where I started: previous prisons of Abeloth...

    so if Kwa, Gree, Rakata and Killiks are the curretn servant races... who served the Celestials before them, before the last cataclysm that lead to their rise and others demise?

    and yeah, here comes my conclusion: SHARU

    after the 30000BBY cataclysm, the Gree are forgotten by the Celestials and unpunished live on.. helping younger species, redeeming themselves but keeping to the background with all their tech and knowledge.

    doesn't that remind you of the Sharu who sit out the entire Gree/Kwa/kKillik/Rakata conflicts? They once reachd to Aargau and covered a large chunk of the galaxy... have supertech beyond some we saw current servant races use... and lived on content in their tiny pocket of space after no longer being the favourite servants of old... survivors but keeping to the background, silent.. devolving only when the Rakata overthrow the Celestials.. out of fear, but why should they fear that if they do not already know it is for the worse? they do know cause they know the Celestials, and they know what happens when they are robbed of their influence and overthrown. they know because they witnessed the last cataclysm and survived. now they survive once more by devolution on purpose with a failsafe function to return to power thx to their lifecrystals. no wonder they play no role in the Rakata, etc. ancient species games.. they are even more ancient than them! already played more than enough games.
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  17. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    great minds think alike it seems ;) read my latest post...
  18. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    oooh I love Kashi Mer... still pitty the german fanfilm project of Kashi Mer, Xendor and co that failed to be finished sadly. they had such a sweet awesome trailer already.
  19. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Oh, and on the Ones distress call being 2000 years old...

    ... are we to take it that the reason Darth Ruin is nuts is that he met the Ones? :p
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  20. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    Not everyone that is nuts met God :p but most who claim to have met him are nuts so to speak.
  21. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Maybe that's why he believed he could be a God and the Lord of Creation?

    Was his Sith solipsism a plan to become a Celestial, or rather, THE Celestial in charge of the universe...

    So the One? A guy like Ruin sure wouldn't like finding out everything was controlled by three demigods.

    "Kark the Ones... I am the One."
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Sep 30, 2012
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  22. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    possible and I like it, especially if this means that multiple candidates met the Ones back then... Father and kids accepted where Ruin said nope. And Mother left Father for Ruin thinking guys in dark robes are cooler.

    but... my favourite Creator of the Universe still is Daiman :p
  23. darklordoftech Chosen One

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    Is Abeloth the very first evil?
  24. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    No; the Son came before Abeloth. She is Chaos, not Darkness.

    Even then, whose to say the Son was first?
  25. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Holy moley [face_hypnotized] Would be an interesting twist on things. That Ruin actually had some reason to believe he could be a god...