Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.

  1. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    That's an interesting thought about the Silentium originating in the GFFA... [face_thinking]

    I actually rather like it. It's always seemed too convenient that the Vong and the Silentium and the Abominor have all ended up migrating to the same galaxy. Sure, maybe the GFFA was the closest galaxy to the Vong galaxy, but... still a bit forced.

    The idea of a race from the GFFA invading the Vong's galaxy first is quite amusing... as it'd mean the Vong didn't start the war, they were actually just responding to the Abominor's ancestors from the GFFA trashing the Vong's galaxy first. :p

    EDIT: While I previously disliked the idea of the Celestials being a machine-oriented race, it's actually starting to grow on me, if in the GFFA's distant, distant past, there was a big war between races, all trying to "ascend", but through different ways. You've got whoever created the Silentium going the Ssi-ruuvi "entechment route", by merging with machines; and then you've got the Kathol/Cthul's ancestors who, if they're the same as They Who Dwell Beyond the Veil, tried "Force ghosting halfway" by becoming spirits. Two opposites - much like the Abominor and ancient Vong - battling it out in Machines vs Force.
  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    and now Skippy the Jedi Droid will bridge the gap between the warring factions... the first forceghosting droid ever ;)
  3. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    another thought:

    The Killik hivemind remembers them as builders of Centerpoint (when they were Celestial servants). Killiks assimilate/absorb outsiders into their hivemind and keep their memories as if they'd be their own.

    IF Abeloth is a Celestial... she too absorbs people into herself (Minddrinking) and keeps their appearance and memories as if her own.

    a nice paralell between the Masters and Servants of the ancient times there. Coincidence?
  4. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Interesting observation... I'd never noticed that before... [face_thinking]
  5. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    A very interesting observation indeed... really though one thing that is difficult with the Killiks is that its difficult what a Joiner did and what the Killiks actually did so certain pieces of information they said in DN I was a bit skeptical about though it would be an interesting parallel if Abeloth and the Celestials conduct a similar practice as their servitor Killiks. I do wonder though... if the Killiks were used so extensively, did the Celestials use any other species as servitors to do their tasks?
  6. Sauron_18 Jedi Master

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    Apr 1, 2005
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    The Sharu seemed pretty eager to block their more complex cognitive abilities, perhaps there is a connection there?
  7. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    An interesting thought... I mean if we look at it, the Sharu and Kwa degenerated into primitives though only the former seemed to had intended it to be a temporary measure with them returning to their old state once the "danger" had passed. So, question remains, was that the intention of the Kwa? Or did they just degenerate into primitives without outside interference?

    I also wonder, do the inhabitants of Brath Qella qualify as an elder race?
  8. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    If you've got Killiks (and whatever Abeloth is) running around swallowing everyone up into one galactic hive mind -- essentially, acting like the Borg -- then I'm suddenly starting to understand why the Silentium/Abominor's ancestors may have sought to escape into mechanical bodies: to avoid being devoured by the Killiks and the mind drinkers.

    At least if you imprint your mind onto a computer, you're free from the mind devouring Abeloths of the galaxy.
  9. KnightDawg Jedi Master

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    Nov 26, 2007
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    It amazes me that this fact doesn't warrant more attention. The Rakata were the first species I thought of when I read that portion of 'Abyss'.
  10. S1thari Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 13, 2008
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    The more information we glean about the Celestials, the more I've come to compare them to the Ancients from Stargate. The way the Ancients learned to "ascend" to a higher plane of existence, I believe the Celestials may have acheived a similar state of transcendence via the Force. They're basically the SW version of the Ancients -- a race of beings that lived centuries ago who were far more advanced technologically than any other species before or since. I'm not sure we'll ever learn more than the fact that most of the modern day mysteries in the SW universe are attributed to them.
  11. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    One problem, I expect, is that IU they'll likely always remain mysterious, otherwise it'd mean the GFFA advancing to the Celestials level if they ever found out what the Celestials did to become immortal star gods or whatever they were.

    We really need more RPG books again to explore these things OOU.:(
  12. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Oh most definately, don't think I heard yet though whether anyone has the license to do the RPG yet :(
  13. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    I'm confused as to how the Abominor and Silentium can be tied into these discussions.

    The Yuuzhan Vong were cut off from the Force circa 15,000 BBY.

    This gives us an approximate time as to when the Abominor and Silentium were expelled from their galaxy, give or take however long it took for them to reach the Unknown Regions.

    So they're not 'ancient' as in pre-Republic in nature.
  14. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    Yub, Kwa and Sharu degeneration to protect their higher brain functions has to do with it I think too. Though any more on the Gree and what they did?



    Agreed!




    The conflict in the Vong galaxy is not that ancient, true! But we are talking about the creators of the Silentium and Abominor who lived longer ago before that and vanished. And we talk about the potential origin of them in the GFFA before moving to the Vong galaxy. So it works! Read out above posts where we theorize about Silentium and Abominor originating in GFFA, leaving for Vong galaxy, etc. cause it makes more sense to have them originate here and leave instead of have Vong, Abominor AND Silentium too find the GFFA all, especially after some droids like Vuffi Ra and a Droids cartoon robot have been retconned into Silentium and Abominor! ;)



    Brath Quella: I doubt they are that ancient. Wasn't it somewhere mentioned the iceage started only few thousand year ago, not over 25000 years ago? But still the Brath Quella as well as Rhen Var are my two favourites for expanded backgrounds in the not too distant past. Same for the Ithullians the Mandalorians wiped out. They were intelligent after all.





    Silentium/Abominor: A friend on facebook pointed out to be that the starfruit shaped species that created the Silentium/Vuffi Ra lived "in the void" according to the Lando Calrissian books and got wiped out by radiation storms. Now one might interpret it as they lived between galaxies as extragalactic species... or that they not originated on any world but are naturally spacefaring species like others (Thon Boka, Mynocks, Exogorths etc. maybe) hmm
  15. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    IIRC, I thought the Silentium were suggested as being 1,000,000 years old somewhere?

    I think it's got something to do with Vuffi Raa and how the retcon about him being one sets them as being very, very old.
  16. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    From what I can remember, the Gree didn't suffer from a degeneration or anything like that but they did seem to had forgotten how to use their advanced technology. So they didnt regress the way the Kwa or Sharu did but whether it was a similar attempt by them or some plague or simply just falling apart as a civilization is unknown.
  17. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Yeah, the Gree don't seem to have genetically devolved, but just have had their civilisation collapse, as the few left still are sentient I think.

    I just treat them as your typical example of a race that has risen to decadence only to have it collapse. Maybe whatever powered their technology ran out, was taken by their enemies, whatever.

    After all, all it'd take to bring the GA down is a computer virus to destroy the HoloNet and delete all hyperspace navigation data. :p
  18. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    taken by their enemies? as in... all other cultures shut down but they stood and fought... and lost? nice different approach to discover then!

    also the New Sith Wars Knight Errant approach of hyperspace+holonetshutdown is a nice one indeed hehe

    imagine a Sith in the NSW reactivating Gree or Kwa hypergates to travel through them instead of charting hyperspace anew!

    I think there will come a time in the GFFA where exactly this happens and holonet and hyperdrives are unusable in the future... they will return to Jedi Forceguiding them through Hyperspace Kyp Durron style... there comes the Hyperspace Navigators Guild and we can have DUNE Saga as GFFA future ;)
  19. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    That raises another thing- just what the heck were the Celestials doing that would leave cognitive degeneration a means to avoiding their wrath/interest? Are we talking about technology/beings that literally operates/is powered by/detects/is hindered by higher intellect? (which would suggest some kind of telepathic technology/ability)
  20. Nobody145 Force Ghost

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    Feb 9, 2007
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    It does kind of have disturbing implications, that the Sharu lobotomized themselves to hide from the Celestials. Although I don't think there's anything specifically connecting those two, right? So maybe the Sharu were just hiding from another advanced race out there, perhaps even Abeloth or the mysterious Destructors of Keshiri myth?

    Although now that you mention it... I think there was one Star Trek book where long ago a race accidentally killed everyone in the galaxy with an evolved enough brain (they were trying to build a telepathic machine to help everyone get along... but it didn't turn out well), so maybe that's why the Sharu devolved themselves? Or I think the Halos of Halo were supposed to kill all organic life above a certain level? Or was it just all organic life, I don't keep up with that series enough to remember the exact details.

    Usually the Celestials were hinted at as mysterious, or even protective (such as setting up the hyperspace barrier that divided the galaxy to keep those terrors in the Unknown Regions), and I think DNT hinted that they chased the Killiks into the Unknown Regions when the Killiks were expanding too much? Although Luke was maybe just guessing, but I'll take his intuition as near fact, given his skill.

    In terms of "vanished ancient races", I wonder if the Celestials could be like the First Ones from Babylon 5 too. There most of the older races had evolved beyond flesh bodies (although still weren't quite invincible), but hadn't literally transcended to another plane of existence unlike the Ancients from Stargate, rather most of them had simply left their home galaxy and moved onto other places, instead of dying out or justmysteriously vanishing. Although part of the B5 mythology also involved some of the few remaining elder races being willing to help the younger races, which is partially why younger races were able to develop, although "help" is a somewhat subjective term by the time of the series.

    Saying the Celestials literally transcended to another plane of existence seems... a bit too much for Star Wars, at least to me. Usually the ancient Jedi or Sith are the pinnacle of Force skills, no need to go even further with the Celestials. Maybe a plague wiped them out, maybe they won a war with a similarly powerful race but most of the race still ended up dead, or maybe they simply left to explore other galaxies. Come to think of it, I think Halo's Forerunners did most of those things (although the more recent books are possibly adding more details and twists to their fall, although I'm not really a Halo fan much). Given how they were able to manipulate hyperspace (setting up the hyperspace anomalies that might be there to imprison that zombie thing in the Unknown Regions, not to mention moving planets through hyperspace), reaching another galaxy should be an easy task for them.

    Oh, the Unknown Regions guide was wonderful, and a worthy last book for WotC's line of Star Wars RPG line, but still, there's always more to explore (especially with the ongoing TCW and hopefully soon to launch TOR), I hope someone starts writing Star Wars RPG soon.

    There was that interesting line in Abyss about bathing in the Pool of Knowledge, but again, Luke's guides weren't really reliable (and even if they had been truthful, they might not have simply understood, or were being deceived by Abeloth). And when someone did fall in, they did change, becoming like Abeloth, but they were still mortal and could be killed, so no Force-god, unless its because Taalon was killed before he became too powerful?

    I'm pretty sure no contemporary society will ever reach anywhere near Celestial level of technology, considering the technological plateau for the last few millennia, and definitely won't evolve that much either. Sure, the Dark Age set everyone back centuries, but then there's always some big war, or plague or something to distract people. With Star Trek, you have the occasional future where Starfleet ships have gotten much, much faster, and even in the novels some ships already have a bey
  21. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    Nice idea to compare Palpatines ripping Force storms out of hyperspace to Celestial hyperspace barriers. Are they essentially in-place-locked Forcestorms? hmm... awesome


    but even more interesting I think is the technological level staying constant. So far we got used to it being the Star Wars way. But now I wonder, since the technological plateau is in place even when darkages and setbacks are no longer an explanation longterm, what inuniverse reason it might have. True, the NSW dark ages were a major setback, as were many other wars and plagues but what if the plateau was created artificially by some of the ancients we are talking about?

    Bare with me here. Many ancient races lobotomized themselves to not be affected by what happened back then. Then some day the threat was over and they still were lobotomized or choose to not return to their former glory. But what if others will and thus provoke a new similiar threat to come about? Thus somebody decided to enforce a technological plateau that can't be moved beyond ensuring the GFFAs constant status quo with a bit wiggle room.

    Certainly Sharu and Gree could not have done that. Rakata maybe? Sharu's supertech was beyond words awesome, Rakata could do a lot more than Jedi and Sith ever did and same for Celestials etc. So maybe they found a way to do that too?

    Kinda a technological Genoharadan organisation that keeps the plateau at all times. Genoharadan are a assassin sect of bounty hunters after all who are rumored to decide galactic power succession and mafia-esque control who will get into power or who will not make it long.

    and on some other topic:

    Celestial tech:

    Hyperspace was essential to them, be it barriers, moving planets through, shooting centerpoint weapon through it etc. so, is hyperspace the higher plane they moved to? live they in hyperspace now?
    Hyperspace was a scifi gimmick to explain faster than light travel so far. It is a higher dimension used to bend space, tunnel through a higher dimension to a location in our dimension. What if they went further with hyperspace than any others before or after them and found a way to live there, ascend there, explore it further than just abuse it for travel while it still rests not very understood by GFFA scientists as per essential guides?



    Sharu tech:

    The pyramids of them are interesting, being able to shrink and enlarge people like Lando within them, containing impossible rooms of higher dimensions than 3D etc. so I bet Sharu had tech beyond the third dimension. And given their return and reclusion ever since the Calrissian books, I wonder what they are up to.
    They created a barrier around their home after all making it impossible for people to enter or leave their space (hyperspacebarrier-esque maybe?)
    Only in later years scholars and minor trade was established as per essential guides.

    So this transdimensional nature of Sharu tech makes me think, did Celestials use Sharu tech to create hyperspace barriers? Or did the Sharu serve/aid them at one point before making a target of themselves and going lobotomized?
  22. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    You know, I never did consider the thought that perhaps races like the Sharu and others were servants/allies of the Celestials. I mean we know that the Kwa Infinity Gates are based on Celestial principles... but does that mean that they reverse engineered the technology or were they gifted the technology by the Celestials?
  23. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    JJM must do this in KE. =P~

    That'd be kriffing awesome. The Core sealed by the Republic Navy? All hyperlanes through the Rims shut down and/or lost?

    But then Lord Daiman unearths this ancient Gree artefact... and steps straight into the ancient tombs beneath Coruscant's metropolis.

    That'd rock! [face_dancing]
    This is an interesting line of thought... [face_thinking]

    What would happen to Abeloth or the Killiks (or any other Borg-like collective hive minded creature) if it absorbed the degenerate minds of a race that had lobotomised themselves? We know from Dark Nest what happens when the mind of a darksider is introduced to a Killik nest... so would the Sharu have karked up the Killiks as well? Not in the way Lomi and Welk did, but through introducing a deliberately "debased" intellect, that had purposefully been rewritten to make the Killiks end their galactic conquering and revert to a more... primitive society?
    I don't think "transcending" is necessarily outside of Star Wars... it just wouldn't mean exactly what it means in things like StarGate.

    Exar Kun tried to transcend. While he "failed", I have always felt that he actually achieved exactly what he set out to achieve. He just didn't realise until he did it what a lie eternal life was. The Jedi accept that to become one with the Force involves letting go, whereas the Sith fear death and so usually try to cling onto their mortal frames. Exar Kun wanted it both ways. But that can't be done.

    His half-life as a spirit is "transcendence" in Star Wars.

    However, while Exar Kun and the Sith hate it, I can see the ancient races having understood what they were doing and being fine with it. The Mind Walkers who Abeloth has tricked into leaving their bodies are now in the same state that Exar Kun was on Yavin IV: trapped on Abeloth's planet. Some of them seemed to have wanted that though, and the Kathol who trapped themselves inside the Life Well also did it willingly, believing it was the only way for their spirits to remain. It's a choice between dying and embracing the Force; living forever... but still eventually dying; or transcending mortality into the incorporeal nothingness beyond shadows.

    IIRC, the spirits trapped inside the Life Well have since been freed in the DarkStryder Campaign, and Luke will probably free the spirits trapped in the Maw when Abeloth is defeated, but it nevertheless seems to have been something the ancients once desired... albeit, once they had achieved it, they may have realised a thousand years later that eternal life was actually a very, very boring existence.
  24. Zorrixor Chosen One

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  25. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    I doubt life beyond death is boring ;)

    Imagine: Obi Wan did get way more powerful, he just did not use his powers to the full extent. And we know from some Marvel scenes that Yoda and Ben welcomed some dead friends of Luke into the netherworld and trained them there only then as Jedi post mortem, akin to some Jedi post-mortem only learning some skills like Ghosting etc.

    So I believe, there is much more to it. But our understanding of becoming one with the Force is limited so long we are mortals. Which leads to the misinterpretation of it as boring or kinda like death/delayed death. But I certainly doubt it is. While Star Wars still is without reincarnation traditions it does heavily draw on Buddhism, Hinduism and other philosophies and religions.

    It is not all about living forever or never dying. Sith also want to be allknowing, allseeing, allpowerful. Godlike. Jedi understand to serve the Force, to give themselves to the Force and it uses/guides them tuning in. Sith use it as a tool and never understood that the Force does not work like that, not at the level they intend to reach. By joining the Force, a Jedi does not cease to exist. Just his mortal part ceases, just his "self" does but not his soul/other part that will become one with the force and, one allknowing, etc. just like the Force does not intend to act as much or actively as an individual might have wanted to. I believe there is a point where they realise that the Force is right and render their individuality less important than the sum of all parts.


    well more forcephilo someplace else I guess.






    back to the topic:

    About Killiks and Celestials mindabsorbing others: Did Celestials absorb the Killiks controling them as we believe, or was it the other way around? Did the Killiks take over the Celestials? Did the Celestials just be Killik pawns that looked as if they were the enemy while the servants (onimi scenario) Killiks were the true masters and tried to consume the galaxy? Some still unjoined Celestials then might have gone rogue and brought them down allying with maybe Gree, Sharu and Rakata? Imagine them using the lobotomized superpowers to fight back against the Killiks without them being joined in. The last Celestials then drove them to the UR and constructed with Sharu tech the hyperspace barrier, set up the Gree at the UR door to watch for any breaches to the barrier, with Gree hypergates able to bypass the UR barrier to check on the UR?

    Killiks remember to have built Centerpoint, a task ascribed to the Celestials. Did Celestials do it and get absorbed into Killiks, so they believe they did it? Or did Killiks really work for Celestials?

    Did the superpowers just lobotomize them for survival or did they do it to fight the mindabsorbing power without danger of being turned?

    It would be no wonder then if the Rakata took over after the last Celestials brought down the Killiks and Joiner Celestials, trapping some in the Maw and destroying the rest or driving them to the UR. Without any or many Celestials left, the Rakata took over cause they were not lobotomized like the other superpowers, instead they might have been the link/commanders that controled the allied lobotomy powers in the fight against the Killiks.