Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.

  1. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
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    It would be when everyone else had rejoined to the Force and the material universe had achieved thermodynamic equilibrium.

    Any souls left behind in an incorporeal existence, neither alive nor dead, would be stuck in eternal nothingness.

    The Mind Walkers were conned into precisely that. A false netherworld that neither brings immortality nor ascension to the afterlife.

    Likewise, the souls of the Kathol hadn't become one with the Force, they simply imprisoned themselves forever inside the Life Well.

    That's not ghosting in the sense Obi-Wan or Yoda did it. It's trying to remain in the mortal realm beyond the death of the universe.
  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    sure I never doubted that for those clinging to a corporal/self form, which is why I referenced Obi and Yoda from Marvel who did join the Force. What I am talking about is the line that it'd be boring for those joining the Force, that that equals death too.

    I neither fear death, nor expect it anytime soon ;) But I believe and know, what comes afterward is far different than nothingness and equilibrium. Just because it is unknown doesn't mean it is nothing.
  3. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Well, yeah, for those who rejoin the Force that's true.

    In my post earlier, I was only talking about those who refuse to merge with the Force and try to fight it forever. Hence ending up where Exar Kun or the Mind Walkers did: trapped and forced to watch everyone else pass on... while they're left behind, stuck in an incorporeal half-life.

    Hence my point about how trying to "live forever" (which is essentially what they've done by "transcending life" without actually dying) ain't all it's cracked up to be. Obi-Wan and Yoda died. Exar Kun and the Mind Walkers did everything they could not to die. Which I expect is why the Kathol trapped inside the Life Well were happy to embrace the Force and finally pass over when they were at long last released from their own imprisonment.

    However, what I was saying in my reply to Nobody, was that people like the Kathol show that in the distant past there were races who wanted to do this, so the idea of "transcendence" in Star Wars is viable, it's just not the glorious cosmic omnipotence it is in StarGate, but a willing denial of the Force to try and remain "alive" forever.

    EDIT: Which, when you really think about it, in a universe that has categorical proof of an afterlife with the reappearance of Force ghosts, suggests that the Kathol in fact lacked the same level of understanding and/or conviction in an afterlife that the Jedi have. [face_thinking]

    Whereas the Jedi are at peace with death, the Kathol (and the Mind Walkers) are either foolish and naively think their realm beyond shadows is truly the Force, or else they're simply afraid of finding out what happens when you actually die and return to the Force. The Mind Walkers would rather build their own "pretend netherworld" on Planet Abeloth than find out what the real netherworld is.
  4. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    An intriguing notion about the Gree being placed as the guardians of the Unknown Regions [face_thinking] I never considered whether the Celestials or their allies perhaps placed some guardians around to watch over certain regions.

    I mean, Gree Space isnt that far off from the edges of the Unknown Regions really though the Rakata were slapped bang in the middle of it but perhaps with Force hyperdrives, they managed to bypass its effect. Mind you, with the likes of the Infinity Gates and Hypergates, distance doesnt really matter so even the Kwa could have been potential guardians and just deployed forces by way of those gates.
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    Rakatan Force hyperdrive: we know of another Forcebased hyperdrive: Aing Ti Instanttravelships using Force-bending-spacetime methods to cross without time passing. Are Rakatan drives related or completely different to that method, kinda like Rakatans (as base for modern hyperdrive) opened up portals to and from hyperspace with the Force to tunnel through instead of letting computers do that for humanity?
  6. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Aing-Tii's abilities are essentially space folding so kind of like teleporting in some manner. The Rakatan force drives I think we don't know much on them except that they home in on planets that are vibrant in the Force which is why the Infinite Empire was so spread around. But how they functioned? No idea, I would like to think though that the Rakatan and Aing-Tii used different techniques for FTL capabilities.
  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    homing in... hmm... got an idea, maybe the Rakata opened wormholes into/through hyperspace, but they needed to feel the endpoint and only strong places in the force could be felt in that distance, thus they only used them ;)
  8. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    If you're looking for slaves, going to places bright in the Living Force makes sense. :p
  9. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    reread the Unknown Regions wotc sourcebook:

    Mnggal-Mnggal:
    On the world Mugg Falow, the central intelligence of this disconnected multiple worlds spanning evil blob entity is supposed to be located, encircled by a ring of wrecked starships from all Eras.

    The sourcebook goes on to name examples: Gree sailships and A fully loaded treasure barge of Xim the Despots era!!!


    Hello Xim... how come such a ship ended up deep in the UR (whereever that planet may be there since Atlas appendix does list it as ???)

    So did Xim's influence reach much further than his space did? and how much further, since between his space and the UR of modern times (about which we are talking here) is a huuge unknown void for him to cross and chart.





    next, the Rakata are said to have fought the Gree and Kwa both, so these species still remained lucid or returned to lucidness to fight the Rakata... and lost. So did they go lobotomized because of Celestials or Rakata or what?

    then again aside the Rakatan archipleago in the UR, there are Rakatan holdouts in the Tiion... well... lets just say Xim met them and they helped him into the Unknown Regions bypassing the barrier with Force hyperdrives until they hit Mnggal-Mnggal? or did they help Xim to reactivate some Gree hypergates he might have found to reach the UR?




    next the Sorcers of Rhand: their culture is said to be based on 3 schools... one of them Knell of Muspili, a death cult from the moon trees of the Gunninga Gab that transcribed the Taurannix Codex to call forth apocalyptic deities from beyond The Gap's spatial fissure.

    well, sounds like a Kathol Rift clone in the UR featuring more otherspace or cuthulu connections.

    other 2 schools that lead to the Sorcerers of Rhand are the Kanzer Exiles and their Lord Ravager (kinda a Riddick rippoff) and a Warriors of the Shadow, Taung offshoot in the UR.

    so we may add Taung having been in the UR too at some point before settling on Mandalore.


  10. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
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    Ceiran - look up the location of Criton's Point. It might help. ;)
  11. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    thx for the tip ;) K-3 Outer Rim

    that is close indeed :)

    ps: edited above post, so more to discover for you there is
  12. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Interesting thoughts about the "The Gap" possibly being akin to the Kathol Rift... [face_thinking]

    I seriously like this idea. Especially your suggestion that the Knell's desire to "summon their gods from the Gap" might be akin to a fold in spacetime like Otherspace... I really like that.

    Come to think of it, back when I thought Abeloth was going to be linked to They Who Dwell Beyond The Veil, I was convinced that They Who Dwell Beyond The Veil meant that -- thanks to mind/flow-walking -- they were beyond shadows too. But you've now reminded me about Otherspace. :oops:

    I really like this idea of there being ancient civilisations hiding/trapped in pockets of folded space... that's an awesome idea that so needs exploring. The Celestials using black holes to seal people away? That's one method. But literally warping spacetime to imprison them? That's awesome.:D
  13. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    I still like to hold the view that Waru and the Mnggal-Mnggal are a race of Old Ones from another dimension (perhaps even Otherspace) who got trapped in the galaxy and decided to have some "fun" leading to a conflict with the Celestials who decided to trap each one in a different manner :p

    Anyway, an interesting thing on the Xim ship thing being in the Unknown Regions especially since its the on the other side of space. Hmmm... I would like the concept of Xim either meeting some Rakata or pillaging a Rakatan Force drive for an explorer ship that got trapped in the Unknown Regions where its crew became Mnggal-Mnggal snack.

    In fact, perhaps we can link this with Xim's incursion on Korriban. Perhaps his scouts came on Korriban, uncovered an ancient Rakatan ship and the outpost had it shipped back to Xim's empire? That would perhaps warrant a reason why he had an outpost on Korriban before the Sith Empire kicked him out of the Caldera?

    On the Infinite Empire's fights against the Kwa Holdings and Gree Enclave... hmmm, that produces an issue. One would assume, barring our discussions, that the collapse of the Kwa Holdings and their regression had to do with the Infinite Empire dismantling the Kwa's empire whilst the Gree entered into a slow decline. I mean TOR has reference to the Rakatan prison namely the "Tomb" on Belsavis has some Kwa supersoldiers in it so evidently the Kwa did put up a big fight if they were throwing around supersoldiers.
  14. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    hmm... so Xim met Rakata in the Tiion, through them learned of Korriban and got there... then sent a ship to the UR? nice one! love it... this also solves some other problems as to how he got through the caldera and UR barrier or why not taking some other worlds nearby but just Korriban.

    about the Kwa Supersoldiers: Belsavis is way far away from their territory, so how far did they truly extent at their maximum of the Kwa Empire (since atlas for gree and kwa just gives minimal sizes at the time of their decline! like with the Sharu)

    or is it reasonable the Rakata transported Kwa all the way to Belsavis not having any closer prison world?


    Also, there are more interesting similarities between the ancient races:

    Sharu and Kwa had mysterious pyramids too.
    Kwa AND Gree both had hypergates
    Celestials and Killiks had the mindabsorbing/mindcontrol powers
    Rakata had building projects and tech similiar to that of the Celestials if comparing Starforges to Centerpoint designwise etc.


    about the Hypergate network... did it maybe predate the Gree and Kwa? they fought each other, through the stargate system that was interconnected so they can reach each other. did they create and interconnect their systems or did they use a preexisting one and expand it through seedships like in stargate?
  15. RS_Randy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2003
    The whole Xim/Rakata connection people are talking about reminded me of something I read in The New Essential Guide to Droids:


    Also, regarding a specific type of War-Robot:


    There's also this paragraph in the Wookieepedia article for the Hyperdrive, though I'm still tracking the source for this one:


    So it's apparent that the Tion's Rakata population contributed their technology to the Tionese, who didn't exactly find full workarounds for the Rakatan technology like their Core counterparts the Corellians and the Duros did. No need for them to discover it on Korriban or anywhere else, the Rakata were right in their backyard, with Raxus Prime being singled out as a member of the Infinite Empire by the Atlas. So if their was a treasure ship of Xim using a full Force drive from a Skipship, it could have easily ended up far outside the Tion's "safe" lighthouse network.

    Just my thoughts, based on a little research.
  16. RS_Randy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2003
    As I understood it, the Kwa and Gree's "gates" were based on Celestial principles, and the Kwa definitely had gates for outside their territory: the Infinity Gate from Clone Wars Secret Missions #2: The Curse of the Black Hole Pirates is near Chiss space in the Unknown Regions. And the core territory of the Gree during the Infinite Empire was larger than Gree Space during the Imperial era. It's possible that this gate network could span the galaxy, with gates hidden or buried on multiple worlds. The Sharu's core territory was on the far eastern edge of the galactic disk, but it's thought they spanned as far as Aargau. How? Hyperdrive, or taking advantage of a Celestial gate network? Why would the Celestial settle for plain-old Hyperdrive when they could portal instantly across the galaxy?
  17. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Very interesting, didnt know of this and havent read the New Guides on Droids or Chronology so this is the first encounter for me seeing this. Didnt realise that the Tionese had such a big boost due to Rakatan influence.

    On the Belsavis being so far from Kwa space, remember, with hypergates, distance isnt a limiting factor and the empire possessing the technology could deploy their soldiers or even ships without having to worry about supply chains or enemy border patrols. I mean the presence of an Infinity Gate near Chiss Space in the Unknown Regions makes me think that the Kwa used it as a staging ground for striking at Rakatan strongholds in my opinion though thats speculation.

    Forgot another thing, TOR apparently will have a Gree computer being used by the Republic to infiltrate Taral V. So, TOR has some interesting additions in terms of ancient races with Sharu malefactors, Kwa supersoldiers and also the Gree computer.

    Also, didn't the Kathol have some kind of launch gate that sounds similar to a hypergate? They could potentially be another race that had hypergates based on Celestial principles though I believe the Kathol had more organic biotech used.
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    To me, the "launch gates" seem more akin to a larger cousin of the hyperspace booster rings in AOTC and ROTS. They essentially remind me of the warp gates in Babylon 5. Whatever they were, their explosion was enough to tear a hole in spacetime to create the Kathol Rift and Otherspace - which makes one start to wonder whether the Rift is essentially just an open tear between realspace and hyperspace?

    Given the Kathol were descended from the "Old Ones", that either suggests the Old Ones are the Celestials after all, or that the launch gates are a slightly different technology. I have, however, just remember that Kathol can also be spelt Cthol, so it probably is true that Abeloth is meant to be one of the same Old Ones, what with her whole Cthulhu-look; so, if she does turn out to be a Celestial, these would tie together.

    Of course, the biggest clash between the Old Ones and the Celestials is that the launch gate was apparently "grown", whereas the Celestials seem to have been into big, technological constructions like Centerpoint and Sinkhole, so I'm not really sure how those two gel together.
  19. RS_Randy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2003
    Well, the launch gates could be starship-scale Hypergates, like the Infinity Gates seen so far. And the Infinity Gates are capable of some pretty hefty destruction: the Infinity Gate on Ova swallowed the planet, and the Nightsisters were almost able to use Dathomir's Infinity Gate to destroy Coruscant. So Kathol's launch gate isn't alone in having destructive capabilities.
  20. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Do they Infinity Gates not need another one on the other end then? (I always just figured they were meant to be like StarGates so needed two gates to link together?) Whereas, the Kathol launch gates simply seem to fling you into hyperspace/across the galaxy, so there'd not be an "exit gate" on the other end.
  21. RS_Randy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 27, 2003
    The only source I can remember actual Gate travel (The Curse of the Black Hole Pirates), there is no end gate, the Infinity Gate simply launches the heroes and the Black Hole Pirates out of the Hyperspace snarl around the black hole and back into Republic space. So in practical application, seems to function very similar to the Kathol launch gates, and would need another gate at the destination only for return travel.
  22. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    Gree hypergates are stargates with gates at both ends. a nice difference then. Can then an Infinity gate not only send people to a location but also pull them back, without a gate there needed to send them back (like the Rainbow bridge from Thor movie?
  23. RS_Randy Jedi Knight

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    Jul 27, 2003
    That hasn't been covered in a canon source, so it's possible, though since it's still described as a gate network, I'd assume they'd need a return gate.
  24. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Encountered this on Wookieepedia though not sure where the source is from:
    So the Gree had an influence as far as Alderaan? A world that was home to the Killiks? Seems an interesting... coincidence, if true.
  25. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

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    They would then seem to be somewhat related to the hyperspace cannons later developed by the Duros and other core worlds- either as an ancient, more advanced, version of the technology, or, at the very least, of similar concept even if different in technological execution.