Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.
Searching the Wook for the Eternity Vault today, I inadvertently came across the Eternity crystal created by an ancient race called Jerni which supposedly could fold back time.
The story itself is about Vader trying to lure out Luke and Leia with a hoax about the crystal's location... but the Jerni themselves appear to have actually existed. So we've got another little-known ancient species.
ah you found the Marvel timetravel story I mentioned earlier! great
it would have been ironic, had Leia saved Alderaan with that timemachinecrystal only for the second Death Star to pop out of hyperspace and blow it up again
So, in terms of a list of ancient races, we can say that the following qualify as elder races for the Star Wars galaxy:
-Precusors/Old Ones of the Kathol Sector
I disagree with the inclusion of the Red Sith. Sure, they were active pre-Republic, but no more so than Humans and other Rakata slave species: they fight off (a little earlier than most) their overlords, steal and adapt their technology, and colonize worlds. They later lose the tech advantage and fall behind, becoming (seemingly) primitive in comparison to the Exiles. Considering Humans colonized the Core AND lost a sleeper ship that colonized Csilla during the same time, perhaps we should include Humans as well. I mean, the Force was discovered on Tython apparently before the Rakata hit their height around 35,000 BBY.
Personally, I say any species that became active during the reign of the Rakata would be disqualified from "elder race" status. So no Humans, no Duros, no Red Sith. Do we have a time frame for the rise of the Herglic Trade Empire? But probably not the Herglics either. The Red Sith are an ancient, but not elder, threat, and all of their technology is derived from either Rakata or Exile tech.
What about the Columi? They're active at first around 100,000 BBY, where they explore the galaxy and label Humans and Duros as nothing more than barbarians and subsentients. Sure, they retreat back into isolation, but so do the Sharu and Kwa.
Sorry for the rambling nature of this post.
According to Evil Never Dies, the Sith weren't a slave species. King Adas defeated the would-be Rakatan conquerors.
In fairness, I think it's likely KotOR was written with the Sith as a conquered species in mind, given that they had a Star Map on the world. Though, at the same time, KotOR also stated (through the Dantooine guardian droid) that that humanity were not amongst the slave species of the Infinite Empire. And that was overlooked. So... whatever. *shrug*
Personally, I like that the Sith kicked Rakatan ass. Hopefully Adas' magic was somehow responsible for the plague that ravaged the species, too. I think that there's no mention of a second Rakatan attempt at conquest following Adas' death is telling.
[Oh, and on the offchance anyone gives a crap, my current fanon is that the Sith stole the Korriban Star Map (who needs bothans?) headed out to the Star Forge and then dark-side virus bombed it, spreading Force-plague throughout the rakatan Empire. Think "Independence Day"... but with Sith.]
Adas: *punch* Welcome to Korriban.
That so needs to be made canon.
Adas poisoning the whole Infinite Empire in one stroke? Awesome.
"BY SITH AXE, I RULE!"
I would totally buy that.
Hmm good point, I think they are an ancient species but perhaps don't qualify on the same level as the "elder" races who had very advanced technology. Though I do wonder, if as mentioned, the Red Sith perhaps created the plague that robbed the Rakata of their ability to use the Force...
I think the Columi were mentioned as being one of the races that shied away from the Celestials when they were about but I havent seen them using things like the Kwa or Gree or Sharu. So advanced and elder but not on the same level as the Kwa/Gree/Sharu?
Maybe the Vong were all the Sith's fault after all, when a ship with Adas's virus accidentally ended up drifting into their galaxy.
wait even better:
what if the Celestials managed to awaken worlds into intelligent living selfaware beings like Sekot and Zonama Sekot. Unbeknownst to the Rakata they started at one point to settle these worlds too... and in return these planets forcestripped them like the Vong were. No forcehyperdrives worked anymore cause nobody could use them anymore. Some Rakata instructed theoretically some of their slaves to use the Force to be able to use them to use the forcetech... and it worked, but only for a time until the slaves rebelled finding themselves now more powerful than their masters.
But the last Rakata fought back with planetbusters like Centerpoint and Sekot fled to the Vong galaxy together with its inhabitants while the slave rebellions drove the Rakata to nearextinction except on Lehon and the Rakatan archipelago
thus the slaves who got force instruction taught others and founded the protocults of several forcegroups in ancient times we know as Jedi precursers.
KotOR II implies that it was something do to with use of the Star Forge that stripped the Rakatan species of their Force sensitivity.
Considering that it was the entire rationale for why Darth Revan knew he could only use the Star Forge for a short time (and at a reduced capacity), I'm not eager to see that explanation messed about with. Otherwise there's no reason for Revan not to attempt to utterly destroy the Republic's industrial infrastructure as Malak did.
Dark!Bastila: Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I am convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge. To use it would mean the end of the Sith... and the end of the Force.
G0-T0: He deliberately left the infrastructure of many planets intact - and many military production facilities. I believe that by whatever means he used to build his armada, he recognized that it was somehow a limited source - or that he was only willing to use it to a point. My prediction is that whatever production facility was being employed, it carried a price that Revan perceived as detrimental to the goals of the Sith.
Ah, I forgot about the Star Forge being the possible cause. I do wonder though whether that means they built it or made it from an even older race which is why it effected them so badly later on. Its just... curious that a plague would erupt from using a darkside device like the Star Forge.
The Star Forge was secretly a Force harvesting Abominor?
the Starforge was built to leech the energies off of a star to construct stuff... well, what if it started to not only leech on the star but also its Builders? and anybody in its vincinity got slowly drained?
If Kreia had only known that the perfect Force/lifedraining superwound was around still in the Rakatan Archipelago in the UR somewhere as per UR sourcebook's Starforge clones
The imprisoned dudes in the Eternity Vault strike me as possibly being the same kind of "soul energy" too. But, unlike how Malak was draining Jedi to fuel the Star Forge, the prisoners around the Vault seem like they may be powering the cage containing the Red Rakata.
So, yeah, Kreia wasn't as all knowing as she thought.
Well, hey, that's why I suggested the Sith magic virus bomb. Something the Sith did to adversely affect it in some way.
If we assume that the Star Forge remains connected, in some fashion, to all that it forges... and the entirety of the Infinite Empire was policed and controlled by Star Forged ships... well. You can see where I'm going.
Though since it IS a massive dark side artefact, it could have just happened "naturally", too, I suppose. Without any external influence.
I just think it's interesting that the IE made no further attempt at reconquering the Sith. Following the death of Adas, they were without strong leadership and fracturing into warring factions: so wouldn't that have made them easy pickings? It suggests to me that maybe the Rakata were in no position to be conquering anyone any more... which, in turn, suggests that it may have been the Sith who dealt the deathblow (or "plagueblow") to their Empire. *shrug*
Regarding the Sith, I seem to recall a line in the comic adaptation to Revenge of the Sith- sort of an extension of a line that's actually in the movie itself- that may or may not bear on this discussion. Now, I'd have to go check the thing out from the library again to get the exact wording right, but the gist of it is,
"Once more the Sith shall rule the galaxy, as we did before the Republic, and we shall have... peace."
Food for thought. Someone with the comic on-hand care to verify this for me? I'm sure it could be referring to the Dark Ages, but still, it's worth investigating nonetheless.
Interesting. Given there's no clarification whether they're talking about 'before the Republic' as in 'before the Republic was founded' or 'before the end of the New Sith Wars and the Ruusan Reformations', future EU could take that line to mean the ancient Sith Empire was far more wide-reaching than we've been lead to believe...
it clearly means the Dark Ages of the NSW. While I am all for a larger ancient true sith threat from 100000BBY, I'd not tie this dialogue to it. clearly the Jedi, Republic and Sith of Prequel times have lost a lot of pre-NSW lore and connection to the times before NSW are there but not prominent enough to warrant them referring to over 25000 years ago.
though it is funny of how a mere government reformation is 1000 years later believed to be the founding of the "modern" Republic as it stands after a golden Age. why would people think that instead of still honoring its 25000 year history?
What? Why would you want a "True sith threat from 100,000 years ago"?
Dose ancient make it more dangerious?
Personaly I am getting the same vibe off the sith, that I get of Marvels apocalypse/ En Saba Nur. A lot of hype but severly lack luster execution.
well TOTJ Sourcebook WEG stated them active 100000BBY, that's why
and indeed lots of sith stuff lacks execution... which is why we have lots of ways to improve it for discussion too!