Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.

  1. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Sorry for bumping this up but saw this entry on Wookieepedia and thought it might spark some interest to people. Its mentioned in Gamer 7 and what I find interesting about this Quilan Pyradex is that it says that its tuned better for races with a hive mind. Now, certainly there are a lot of hive minded races out there so it might not be related to them but does this scream possible Celestial/Killik connection? I mean it says the device allows for understanding complex mathematical computations which would be useful for the Killiks in creating things like Centerpoint and do other such duties.
  2. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    interesting find indeed!

    while not necessarily tied to Killiks and Celestials, it would make sense. Though the pyramide design and sith-amulett vibe I get from the description too also make me think of maybe multiple species tied to the creation of such an artifact. and "tuned better" makes it sound as if there were non-hivemind users of it too.
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Could be tied to Kathol/Darkstryder tech, to be operated by the Char-Ontee/Charon (I don't remember, do either of them have hive minds)?
  4. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    From memory, I don't recall the Charon being a hive minded race but could be wrong. Also, isnt DarkStryder tech more organic in design?
  5. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    out of curiosity: Are there any Hivemind cultures that are NOT insectoid?

    Maybe the Iskalonian Borg but any others?
  6. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Most I think tend to be insectoid though a quick search on Wookiee says that Bilars and Taurill are hive minded races that are not insectoid... well, Taurill are vaguely insectoid but more primate but anyway there are some.
  7. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    The Darkstryder tech siphoned its power from the Kathol trapped in the Lifewell but it was more crystalish/technological in design than organic I think.

    Anyway I was just going by the names: Pyradex - Codex

    The DS created several insectoid species (among others) to do its bidding. Perhaps some of these were hive-minded.

    Also I came across something interesting: the "Fiery Ones." Says they appeared after the Rift Disaster. Perhaps they're another elder species, or related to one, or from some alternate dimension.
  8. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Bumping this up again :p Mostly cause of recent additions to the EU.

    First of all is Dawn of the Jedi, which introduces the Tho Yor pyramid looking ships that took Force sensitive beings from across the galaxy and included Red Sith apparently from Korriban who were dumped on Tython. Now, until the series starts, it brings the question on who the built the Tho Yor. Celestials? The Force wielders like Father, Son and Daughter from TCW? Only reason I say that is because the pyramid ships have a certain resemblance to Mortis from TCW. Could it be that the Force wielders ARE Celestials? Or are they two separate things? Plus, there are said to be Rakata in the series so another look at that ancient race.

    The second development is namely TOR with contents from the Codex being revealed as well as certain missions. Putting these in spoilers. The most commonly known thing revealed on the website is namely the Rakatan Tomb prison placed on Belsavis to hold their prisoners such as Sharu instigators and Kwa supersoldiers. Missions on Belsavis mentions that the Rakatans have a planetary teleportation grid installed on the planet for quick movements along with a sophisticated communication system. Further entries in the Codex say that the Tomb was meant to hold monsters, warlords and the so-called "lords of the infinite" which were things the Rakata feared. In fact, one of these beasts is called the World Razer that was a threat so powerful that the entire Infinite Empire was needed to imprison it on Belsavis.

    Another world from TOR is Alderaan which has Killiks, the Codex says that these guys were in hibernation whilst the rest went into space. Could this be the noted Celestial involvement namely with Killiks being used to create Centerpoint? Also, if anyone hasn't seen, some images for The Essential Guide to Warfare on Facebook shows Killiks fighting Rakata so looks like these two ancients fought one another in the past.

    More things from the Codex and TOR include mentions the Gree such as their advanced navigational technology. Apparently, there is some interaction with them on Coruscant and the Codex says that some Gree technology was taken by the Sith Empire for the Emperor's space station that gives it a cloaking effect. In addition, more stuff on the Rakata include life-shapers that could make beasts that could survive in a vacuum along with saying that they were frighteningly advanced

    Those are mostly the new developments I think. Will add more if I spot anything of note. But anyway, looks like we are getting some cool insights into the ancient races of the GFFA.
  9. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    you forgot the Mother Machine, adding species gene tinkering and creation to the Rakatan achievements, like KOTOR had them terraform whole worlds.

    Also the Infernal One, a powerful Rakata and other little bits are interesting.


    And if going by not too recent EU as well, we might include more Rakata/UR etc. news from Riptide novel as well.

  10. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Just read the Mother Machine entry, I heard about it before but wasn't sure if it was going to be mentioned in the Codex until now. So, yeah, the Mother Machine now as well which seems to had created entire species with the Twi'leks being made. This kind of brings the question on how many races developed naturally and how many were engineered by the Infinite Empire.
  11. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Clearly, since Muun's are just Humans who stretched their skulls during the Great Conehead Movement of 5000 BBY, I wager that Rakata are also Humans, who after stretching their skulls, also stretched out their eye sockets.

    The Mother Machine simply acted as a more advanced apparatus through which the high couture trends of earlier eras could be achieved more easily. I put Twi'leks down to the Horizontal Conehead Movement, back when it was all about going sideways, not just up.
  12. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    One thing that bugs me is that one of the species that Mother Machine made has it own entry which states it went around conquering world until the met the Rataka and lost.
  13. Ghost Chosen One

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    Who? Maybe the "Mother Machine" just tweaked their genes, not completely creating them?
  14. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    I think the problem here is that the wording indicates the Mother Machine actually created them as part of the Rakata's attempts at restoring their Force sensitivity.

    Here's the line:
    A sentient artificial intelligence, the Mother Machine gave herself the name Ashaa and felt a strong connection to each species she created--from Twi'lek to Esh-kha--growing ever more furious at the Rakata who enslaved her and imprisoned her "children."
  15. KamSolusar Force Ghost

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    Very interesting.

    There are also ruins on P'Chek that are very similar to structures build by the modern Twi'leks, but over a billion(!) years old.
  16. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Nothing to add other than that

    1. I like the potential that has for expanding the SW universe even farther - maybe others knew of the Force before the Dawn of the Jedi era. Maybe this orders-of magnitude expansion of the timeline could provide options for all the more-out-there ways I'd have expected the EU to have explored SW.

    2. It could have to do with temporal issues, which SW has not really dealt with... but they have done space distortions, and spacetime is so-called for a reason. It could also have to do with the whole Alien Exodus story. (or something similar)
  17. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    If there are any conflicts, the simplest explanation would just be that "created" can be somewhat ambiguous. After all, I can create a lot of things... but whether I was the first to invent them is another story. With some subjects, Ashaa might have just tinkered with them a little bit when creating them - in other words, just cloned them and altered their genes a bit to fiddle with restoring Force use. It might only have been in certain cases that she altered them so much thait what she had created warranted redesignation as an entirely different species.
  18. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    A couple more things I noted which I may have mentioned before but just adding details on them:
    *The Rakata had access to Mindspears used for the transference of memories between beings.
    *The Mother was a Rakatan entity in a machine... but whether its a person trapped within machine or a sentient artificial intelligence well I can't say
    *In TOR they had lifeshapers that could create animals that could survive baradium explosions or live in the vacuum of space.
    *The Belsavis Tomb has teleportation technology allowing for quick access throughout the planet and stasis fields leaving their prisoners completely frozen but aware of their surroundings I believe
    *Again, according to TOR, the Mother Machine was created to make entire Force-sensitive species and was a sentient artificial intelligence.
    *In Belsavis and Tatooine there are more captured Rakata with the Imprisoned One on Tatooine and Elshuu on Belsavis both being in mind prisons whilst Soa is held in stasis in the Tomb.
    *That the Rakata fought against a marauding race called the Esh-kha who preyed on their slave worlds until they were imprisoned in stasis
    *That the Tomb was created first to imprison the World Razer that required the entire Infinite Empire to capture and it devastated entire worlds.
    *In Fate of the Jedi, the Thuruht Killik nest was responsible for capturing Abeloth suggesting they were used in other capacities other than labourers and this group resided on in a place they called the Celestial Palace.
    *The Killiks in TOR remember leaving on a great migration from Alderaan but no mention of them being "emptied" from Oroboro by the Celestials as UnuThul said in The Joiner King
    *On Gree, TOR says that they were involved in the power structure of Coruscant and used droid emissaries to help in the reconstruction after the Sacking of Coruscant. Now, this might contradict known sources about Gree being anti-droid but the New Essential Guide to Droids does say that they are one civilization that made automata in the distant past and their technology was used to enhance the A-series assassin droids I think.

    I was re-reading Abyss and noticed a curious thing on possible Celestial feats. Raynar Thul said there was a Force technique regarding the ability to change the state of matter. Now, he said that it was a Killik power but Leia asked whether this was actually a power of their Celestial masters considering how... fluidic the hive mind's memory can be.

    Thats the new stuff I noticed. Also, some random possibly connected notes on the whole "ancient races/threats" thing are:
    *An ancient species on Simocadia that built the Ardana Shadex stone giants
    *The Fairfolk
    *Force Demons who once ruled the galaxy,
    *Starweird
  19. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
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    I want to throw in some vague more:

    obscure stuff not necessarily tied to Rakata, Celestials, Killiks & Co and most likely only relevant in later eras, or pre-GHW stuff but of interesting implications if tied to them in the future...


    -The Aleena underworld from TCW with its fairy tale magic and ancient history is fascinating enough to potentially be of relevance if used in future sources accordingly.

    (sidenote: we also need more stories and use of liliput-sized species and gargantuan species, be it as spies, etc. In Dark Nest the Killik invasion of the Stardestroyer proofed the usefullness of smallest bugs and those in all sizes and variants reminding me of Starshiptroopers bugs too)

    -The Elders of Naboo, the stone statues depicting an ancient race driven off by the Gungans and considered Gods by them until ca. 5000BBY.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Elders_%28Naboo%29

    -the gargantuan species of Boz Pity that fought against Hutts and others before being wiped out
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gargantelle


  20. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    May 10, 2004
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    digging crew missions for companions in TOR lead to awesome archeology missions... lots of interesting stuff...


    -pre-Hyperdrive era ship's captain in suspended animation has been revived by Selkath and now tells stories of the distnat past...

    -a Hutt is close to death at age 1700!!!!!

    -lots of stuff about various GFFA worlds artifacts, ruins and excavations in archeology missions

    -now this sounds very R2D2 and Journal of the Whills :p
    Memory Machines:
    A starship manned by droids devoted to recording galactic events has arrived from unknown space. Send your companion to trade information with them.
    Your companion made contact with the historian droids and their leader, NL0-A. The droid, impressed with the knowledge your companion had to offer, has provided access to its archives.

    -Mygeeto is known for its beautiful crystal formations, but some of them appear to have been deliberately shaped long ago. Send your companion to examine them.
    Your companion determined that Mygeeto's crystal formations had been shaped by the Infinite Empire's slaves millennia ago, to commemorate a now long-forgotten victory.

    -Farmers plowing on Hosko have uncovered buried weapons and droids, discarded on a forgotten battlefield. Send your companion to discover more about this battle.
    Your companion determined that the battlefield is from the Hutt Cataclysms, fought within the young Hutt Empire, and salvaged one of the droids.

    -The ancient Sith Lord Dathka Graush once dwelled in the Naos Asteroid Belt. Your companion will search the asteroids for anything that survived over the centuries.
    Your companion found the millennia-old fortress of Dathka Graush in the Naos Asteroid Belt, and opened its lost vaults.

    -Imperial Reclamation Service archaeologists are searching for an alien artifact in the Veragi Sector. Send your companion to trail them and beat them to their find.
    Your companion pursued the Imperial archaeologists and found what they were after--an abandoned Gree outpost! Your companion managed to restore the outpost to life, defeating the Imperials with its defenses.

    -A newly discovered hyperspace route leads to Bezha Two, a founding member of the Republic thought lost in a supernova. Send your companion to make contact.
    Your companion traveled to the lost planet and found that the peoples of Bezha Two remember the early Republic well. During their celebrations, they offered their full support to you and your companion.

    -Rumors are spreading that the Taung--the lost species that gave birth to the Mandalorians--are alive on Gargon Two. Your companion can investigate.
    In the jungles of Gargon Two, your companion found a primitive warrior society--not Taung, but aliens trained by them long ago. Your companion gained their respect and received a gift from the savage creatures.

    -Anomid technicians have discovered blueprints for an ancient Columi machine, and are attempting to recreate it with modern materials. Send your companion to observe.
    The Anomid technicians successfully created a working version of the Columi machine! The Anomids were so pleased, they allowed your companion full access to their research notes.

    -also lots of KOTOR 2 related crew missions tied to Darth Sion, Atris and all others like Mical etc.

    -Relics of the Kwa
    Strange ruins, possibly built by the ancient Kwa, have been found in the Yhuli system. Send your companion to explore and bring back any finds.
    Your companion found the ruins were once a Star Temple, built to safeguard the Kwa's mysterious technology.

    -also lots of Great Hyperspace War comics tie in missions, with Empress Teta, Jedi Nadill and others, and KOTOR comic tie ins with Demagol and co too

    -and I did not even skim a tenth of crew missions yet ;)
  21. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Iskalloni are never mentioned to have a hive mind actually. They just have a strange culture thing going which is why they work together
  22. Nobody145 Force Ghost

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    Feb 9, 2007
    star 4
    About Voss... spoilers. I haven't quite finished the quest (have to go sleep in five minutes), but when you go venturing into the Nightmare Lands, you basically run into the servant of some dark god, and after you defeat him, it turns out he was a captured/possessed/corrupted common ancestor of the Voss and Gormak (looks like a Gormak but talks as intelligently as a Voss). My Jedi Consular chatted with him for a bit, and he explained that they were originally one species but when some developed healing powers and had visions and others didn't, their civilization split along those lines, leading to the current Voss and Gormak, although the current Gormak king has visions too, despite the physical differences. And the dark god of the Nightmare Lands is feeding on the hatred of their war, which is why the Nightmare Lands are expanding. Reminds me of a few fantasy stories, and sounds like the ancient horrors you occasionally hear about in Star Wars (especially in the Old Republic period). Not sure what larger effect it might have, gotta finish the quest later, I have to go sleep now.

    Speaking of ancient horrors, the World Razer might or might not pop up again. Apparently it was Belsavis' original prisoner, and when you get to its prison (and stop some Esh-kha from freeing it) it threatens to break out eventually (while the Rakata could subdue and confine it, they couldn't destroy it, which is saying something). It offers power if the player will loosen its chains, as apparently its going to break out eventually, offering advanced tech if the player will help, and that even with the player's help it won't be free for centuries, so the player character would get to enjoy their reward and die long before the World Razer escaped either way. No idea how that darkside path ends, its always hard to tell when a conversation will end and then I can't restart it anymore. Still, wonder if that will pop up in a future Old Republic work (probably not).


    And spoilers for the Jedi Consular plot- apparently there are some Esh-kha more open to cooperation with other species, and the Consular's plot on Belsavis is basically waking up the nice ones to recruit them for the war against the Sith Empire.
  23. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Thanks for the posts guys, I found that material very interesting :) The archeaology stuff is quite interesting and expands quite a bit really.

    Was seeing an IA walkthrough and saw that the Voss also have things called vitalicrons that seem very much like a holocron but are kept by the Voss in theit vault. Now I was thinking about how they managed to build such a thing until I remembered that Voss is in Tion space. Now, doesnt some sources say that the surviving Rakata fled to that area of space and the inhabitants reverse engineered some Infinite Empire technology? Could it be that Vitalicrons are also reverse engineered from Rakatan technology?

    Also, during the SI walkthrough, Naga Sadow had a secret order of assassins called the Sadow'een that had a temple with droids on Hoth that became their burial grounds. This combined with that info about the Naos asteroid belt thing (does that mean the Naos system in Wild Space?), this makes me wonder how the ancient Sith jumped around so far. Makes a compelling case for some perhaps rare reverse engineered Force drives from the Rakata maybe?
  24. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Ooh... I love that idea, Cronal. It'd help make sense of lots of the oddities in stories like Crosscurrent with Sadow having rapidly expanded to planets far beyond the Sith Empire, without him necessarily having been expanding a distinct "territory". :)

    And these "vitalicrons" definitely look like holocrons, yeah. The image pretty much is one.

    On the assumption that they're being latinate in the name, i.e. "vita" for "life", then the name sounds holocrony too, i.e. "life chronicle".
  25. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Thanks Zor :) I mean one can understand things like getting knocked into the Yavin system and Kesh. But I think places like Hoth are very very far from the Stygian Caldera even with the explanation of space being 3d and not looking at it like a 2d map. We know expansions out of the Caldera were somewhat curtailed during Ragnos's reign as he knew the Jedi Order and Republic were out there. So, one of the explanations I could see is perhaps a few Rakatan Force drives kept for limited usage. Provides a good explanation on how Arkania, which held a vital Sith library, was present so far away from the main territory.