Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.

  1. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Another bump, mostly cause its related to the Darth Plagueis novel and previews for Dawn of the Jedi. In Darth Plagueis, its held as a theory that the Celestials are discorporate entities that merged with the Force and have guided the galaxy ever since which is a view that is dismissed by the Sith Order. Despite it being a theory, I did find it a fascinating concept and different from anything I could have envisioned. It really makes me wonder now though if the Celestials were like the family of Force-wielders on Mortis in some capacity. Whilst not merged with the Force, they did have abilities far different from a Jedi or Sith though its difficult to tell since they were in whats essentially a massive Force nexus.

    Now, what I go into is speculation. I wonder if the Celestials were perhaps sentients of different races that learnt to merge with the Force. So, in essence, they aren't a single race but a group of races that all attained enlightenment in the Force. If thats the case, perhaps they could only grow their numbers by "ascending" individuals into their ranks? The reason I say that is because of the Tho Yor seen in the previews of Dawn of the Jedi should those pyramid ships actually be of Celestial design. Note, the ships selected sentients from across the galaxy with Force potential and took them to Tython. Ultimately, the question of why this was done will hopefully be explored in the comics when they come out but it got me thinking about possible reasons.

    Another thing. We know the Celestials had a thing for astroengineering. I mean they moved entire star systems and star clusters. Again, why? Centerpoint seems to had a dual purpose of moving systems but also containing Abeloth but what about the likes of the Hapes Cluster? Again, speculation, but what if they engineered these safe havens for those sentients that they intended to ascend? Either that or perhaps create a safe haven for races that were in danger?

    Anyway, mostly thought I would post because of the Darth Plagueis book comment.
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The passage in question immediately made me think of the Whills.
  3. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    About the Whill Shaman that Qui Gon met that learnt to return from the nether realm of the Force? Could this suggest a link between the Whills and the Celestials? Perhaps they learnt it from the Celestials? Or was it just coincidence after years of study into the Force?

    Also, I hear some comments from the Book of Sith that concerns the ancient races namely mentions of Kwa and unique properties of Dathomir that interested the Rakata.
  4. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    Dathomir was a place where the "living" and "spiritual" planes were very "close" for some reason, yeah. (Although I'm not 100% certain if this was why the Kwa were able to build the Infinity Gates, or if it was because they built them and tore a wound in the Force.)

    There's certainly an implication in the Book of Sith that the Winged Goddess and Fanged God are either some impressionistic metaphorical image of the light side and dark side as experienced during really jazzed out Force visions, or else... yes... if they are indeed "beings" of some genuine nature, then the idea of the Celestials as some sort of... guardian angels has a distinctly curious element to it. [face_thinking]

    If nothing else, Plagueis's musings about the afterlife in the Book highlight the Sith fear of dying, as he sees death as spiritual oblivion, which Luke's annotations contest, pointing out how Jedi ghosts have returned from the netherworld, so didn't dissolve into nothing like Plagueis feared. Taking Luke at his word, the idea of Celestials as... ghosts that keep getting involved? That's really quite an interesting concept, and I can understand then why Plagueis might dismiss it -- although it'd make the entire existence of the Celestials at all a conundrum for him.

    Not that anything Talzin, Plagueis (or even Luke somewhat) says can be taken as certain, as the whole Book is riddled with opposing POVs. :p
  5. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    Do we know the origins of the Voss?
  6. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Not really an ancient race qualifier but will answer. On Wookieepedia someones put up that the Sith enslaved the Gormak and the Jedi came to liberate them. The introduction of the Force into the Gormak society led to the emergence of the first Mystics who eventually became known as the Voss. So, Voss evolved from the Gormak. Not sure how accurate that is but I have seen some hints in the game to suggest that Voss = Force evolved Gormak.

  7. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    I dont know why but the Voss certainly look wery different.

  8. Nobody145 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2007
    star 5
    Spoilers from a Republic Voss sidequest- apparently the Voss and the Gormak were once one race, which looked more like the gormak (but they could talk). Then some of them started having visions, some could heal, while others couldn't... and then there was a war that split them into two races. No idea why they look so different now (meh, its space fantasy), and the source this came from (a formerly possessed avatar of some dark entity) might not be the most reliable, but I think that's the official origin of the voss and gormak. Although there are still some gormak born with the potential to have visions, but there are centuries of war between them so reconciliation isn't likely to happen that fast.

    Don't know anything about previous Jedi and Sith visits to that world (maybe missed that sidequest or maybe its a Sith faction quest, most of my characters aren't anywhere near Voss yet).
  9. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    Cant we drop the spoilers signs by now?
  10. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    I think the spoilers is mostly a courtesy thing really in case someone came into the thread and got spoiled on TOR story which they might not want to know. Plus, the thread title doesn't say spoilers or anything so might not be sufficient warning if someone came in and got spoiled on story elements.

    EDIT: Another thing I noticed which I might not have mentioned before is I was browsing Wookieepedia and encountered something that might be relevant to this thread. On Corellia, there is mention of three spires called the Forgotten Spires that were manufactured for some unknown purpose. Now, it could be Corellians that made it but... these spires are similar to one located on Dathomir. So, ties to an ancient race? Celestial? Kwa? Rakata?
  11. LivingJediDream Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 7, 2010
    star 4
    Why is it assumed that the Celestials were ever corporeal? Their archaeological footprints were all constructed by the Killiks on their behalf...
  12. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Indeed, after reading some recent material, makes me think that they are not a corporeal race at all. Plus, adds new meaning to the name 'Celestial' as well if they turn out to be almost non-corporeal.
  13. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    I've long hoped for them to be incorporeal, too.

    If nothing else, it'd make them something different, instead of just being one more ancient technologically advanced race.
  14. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    That makes me wonder if Races ascend to godhod like they do it in Trek?
  15. Ghost Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2003
    star 6
    Maybe the Celestials are Force Ghosts? The Whills?
  16. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    Shouldnt they die first to become Force Ghosts?
  17. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Well, we already know from the likes of the Mind Walkers that there is a way of separating the mind from the body in order to join with the Force as seen in the realm beyond shadows. So, perhaps its something like that? A transcendance maybe even that goes beyond being a Force ghost.
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2004
    star 6
    That's what I've been thinking since Luke's line in Abyss about not wanting to become a Celestial.

    To use Plagueis's terminology, it strikes me as -- rather like the Mind Walkers -- involving splitting one's mental pneuma from one's physical anima. I don't see that as involving death in the spiritual "returning to the Force" sense because that presumably requires the "death" of spiritual apeiron

    Note the terminology: Mind Walking. The pneuma is the mind; it is what is doing the walking.

    I suspect Luke's reluctance stemmed from a Jedi's innate dislike of the idea of locking oneself into a sort of "half life" somewhere between the mortal and spiritual worlds, as it's essentially a way to cheat death, as you have no body -- no anima -- to decay anymore. Can your apeiron still be killed? I assume so, as Sith spirits can be, but Celestialisation (huzzah for inventing words!) probably struck Luke as rather dark sideish, even if Mind Walking itself isn't, strictly speaking.

    According to Plagueis, it was the anima that is attuned to the Living Force, so perhaps Luke realised that the pneuma alone could only ever tap into the Unifying Force? (Which is accessed through the immortal apeiron, says Plagueis.)

    Personally, I'm hoping the Celestials turn out as having started out as these benevolent kings who wanted to become eternal to reign over their people for all time in peace, knowing that no mortal dynasty ever lasts forever without conflict... only for the benevolent Celestials to end up every bit as bad as the successors their feared, due to -- as Luke feared -- how no mortal should know everything. The Unifying Force alone might grant the foresight to see into the past and the future and know what is to come... but that just drove the Greek oracles insane, and I think it'd be good if the same thing had happened to the Celestials, as what good is omniscience without the Living Force to ground it?
  19. DarthIktomi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2009
    star 4
    Meh. ;i]Apocalypse[/i] killed everything that made Abeloth interesting with "Cthulhu 4 prez"
  20. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Hey, if Daala can be Chief of State, Cthulhu-lite can be Chief of State :p Not read FotJ so my experience of Abeloth is more second hand or Wookiee related. I can only hope some interesting revelation comes and that later EU material such as guides and the like make her cooler.

    Anyway, from Dawn of the Jedi 0, new revelations on the Rakata:
    *They make use of Force-sensitive agents called Force Hounds to find new worlds rich in the Force
    *Said agents are seemingly all given a designation in Aurebesh; one agent is called Xesh and another is called Trill
    *The lightsaber looking weapon used by Xesh is a Forcesaber; Rakatan developed darkside weapons and used laboratory manufactured crystals to project the beam but otherwise they seem to function like a lightsaber

    No new information on the Tho Yor but plenty of stuff on the Tython system. One thing that interested me though is that on Tython: there is a ruined ancient settlement called the Old City that predated the arrival of the Tythans and according to legend contains a hypergate. Hypergates are typically a Gree device but, having said that, we know from The Essential Atlas that the Kwa's infinity gates make use of Celestial principles so the hypergates could be the same... if the Tho Yor are Celestial related.
  21. Nagai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2010
    star 3
    Its nice to see the Sand People predecesoor species.

    I wonder what predors do.


    RF: blacking out DotJ spoilers...
  22. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Since Predor = Overlord, I would presume they serve as some kind of governor over Rakatan worlds. Seems the slave trade is a big thing.

    Anyway, Dawn of the Jedi 1 issue having an interesting point that relates to this topic namely Byss being shown to hold a Rakatan stronghold and being used as a staging ground for their probes into the Deep Core. Presumably, the Rakata are struggling to get passed the hyperspace issues in that area of space.
  23. Cronal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2009
    star 4
    Hiya all, been away for a while so hadn't had a chance to comment much recently. Anyway, once more bumping this thread because of Apocalypse coming out. Anyone know what goodies are present? I heard that there a link between the Ones from Mortis to the Celestials.
  24. Tzizvvt78 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2009
    star 4
    Apparently, the Celestials can become The Ones. This family did, met Abeloth before she turned Lovecraftian and formed a family. The Ones are basically evolved Celestials, according to their servants (some clan of Killiks). They made Centerpoint Station and other fantastic stuff using Force-sensitive swarms of Killiks. Abeloth got mutated when she tried to become like TO and became like a recurring mechanism for destroying galactic societies when they have "too much war". It all just sounds like someone at LFL played a little too much Mass Effect. :p
  25. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5

    not to forget the Architects are Brother and Sister of the Ones only, working together whenever Abeloth is freed forming a pact. So just 2 Architects there are and just the Ones are tied to Killik servants, not other Celestials who are of/in the Force and not comprehendable by mortal beings. So neither ascended beings nor Force Ghosts nor whatever else.

    also a past time Abeloth was freed was in a war between cephalopods and saurians... wonder when that was given her being freed and imprisoned multiple times before the dawn of the current age... so more than 30000 years ago before Rakatans etc. used Celestial principles reverseengineering them.


    also of note: the Family of the Ones lived on Abeloths world before they came to Mortis, so not all powerful places, ponds, fonts etc. are on Mortis but some remain on Abeloths world and have different effects on mortals than on Celestials. The Ones can take any shape they want, appear as bugs to Killiks, as humanoids to humanoids, etc.

    also there is much ambiguity left for the issue of Force Gods vs the Force in a non-personalized/individualised nature etc. with the added factor of unreliable Killik memories mixing myth, fact and history.

    in short, so far loving it and not yet completely done with the book despite being spoiled to hell!