Lit Ancient Races: Celestials, Rakata, and Co

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Cronal, May 19, 2011.

  1. Tim Battershell Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Has there been anything more on the race that built the Hijarna and 'Hand of Thrawn' fortresses (HotE trilogy and HoT duology) and/or their enemies, does anyone know?
  2. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Don't think anything has been mentioned of them. Wookieepedia lists that the world did belong to the Infinite Empire though at some point according to the Essential Atlas. Its possible the civilization fell before the Rakata.
  3. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    It didn't sound too willing to Unu. I assume the old Nest simply told itself that, being as they betrayed the Celestials by trying to take Alsakan.
  4. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, its demonstrates how literal the hive mind of the Killiks takes things. They don't understand mistakes they make and turn things around in order to suit their thinking. Unu probably thinks that the Killiks are ever loyal to the Celestials despite being 'punished' for no apparent reason. So, their thinking is quite alien and at times impossible to reason with. Remember, UnuThul explained away the Dark Nest at one point as being the result of Chiss Joiners... some could say that might have been Lomi Plo's influence but i think its the nature of the hive mind.
  5. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Exactly.

    The Atlas and Warfare are selling the idea that there was a great conflict in 30,000 BBY, though... Rakata overthrow the Celestials, war against the Gree and Kwa... the Sharu and Columi retreat... the Killiks attack Korriban and Alsakan... and most likely the latter second if the Killik Sith Lord lived on Alsakan.

    I wonder, personally, what it was.

    The Gree, Kwa and Killiks served the Celestials, fact, and the Rakata at some point, also fact.

    The Sharu and Columi certainly did not.

    The Sith did not serve the Celestials, and two millennia later, when found by the Rakata, did not serve them, either.

    Corellia, Coruscant and Duro are within the Celestial sphere of influence, including the Kathol Rift, Cron Cluster, Kessel, Vultar and the Transistory Mists, implying that the Aing-Tii believe the Celestials are those who Dwell Beyond the Veil... and perhaps suggests the Perlemian is a Celestial-created route.

    I wonder if the Sith found the dark side circa 30,000 BBY - as we know they hadn't in 45,000 BBY?
  6. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Could 30,000 BBY be perhaps when Abeloth started causing a fuss? I mean, they called her the Bringer of Chaos and the events that saw the Celestials depart seemed to had brought a lot of chaos. Maybe when she went crazy against the Ones, she started to cause infighting against their servitor races? Like turning the Gree/Kwa against one another, turn the Rakata against the Celestials, and saw the Killiks go on a rampage? Might not all be attributed to Abeloth but she might have caused stirrings and released other horrors to cause problems for the Celestials. The upcoming TOR patch Terror from Beyond shows some strange beasties that have a Lovecraftian feel to them and we have other things like the Mnggal-Mnggal who witnessed the golden age of the Celestials as well as their retreat from the galaxy.

    Personally, the way the Celestials have been described in Darth Plagueis makes me think that they aren't part of the material universe but rather merged with the Force. So, they can't do direct intervention in corporeal matters and leave such actions to the Architects namely the Ones who Celestials perhaps serve as corporeal forms for them. Thuruht say that the Ones are what Celestials become but I'd like to think of them as avatars for them. So, once the Ones were all busy with one another... the Celestials became more or less powerless until Father brought anything under control. But, by that point, the damage was done. The Infinite Empire was undoing the Celestials creations whilst the Gree and Kwa were locked in a bitter war and the Killiks were running amok as well as ripping apart the resources from worlds to feed their nests. So, once the Ones were free, they removed the Killiks to the Unknown Regions in anger at how they had their actions but were powerless to stop the Infinite Empire who had grown vast and had already beaten both the Kwa and Gree. The Gree enter isolation whilst the Kwa are 'devolved' into Kwi. So, the Ones simply make sure Abeloth is contained and just retreat to Mortis where they want to preserve the balance. Maybe even the Tho Yor were created to help create the rise of a new balance in the form of the Je'daii. All my speculation though.

    Though with regards to the Sith... really, I don't think the likes of the Red Sith, Hutts, Anzati and others were involved beyond simply perhaps either directly or indirectly witnessing the Celestial conflicts and collapse. They were old enough to witness events and fight off rare attacks like the way the Sith did to the Rakata but were otherwise not involved directly in conflicts between these cosmic giants.
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  7. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    the Gree, Kwa, Killiks are interesting ancient species with very interesting supertech... but the Sharutech beats them by by millions of years of evolution I think, well definitely by many. So if Celestials as species or group of people once ruled actively in the galaxy instead of just in the Force or on Mortis, then the Sharu must have been either rivals or living alongside them with similiar tech the Celestials had. and the Celestials did not bother with the Sharu it seems except for when the Rakata made the Sharu retreat and devolve. Also the Kwa devolved despite the Celestial allies after they went to war with the Gree! So was there a split in the Celestials with factions supporting Gree and others Kwa? or did one of those go against the other and Celestials?

    Given the Gree hardly devolving and getting the better end out of all those servant species, and them still prominent and helping younger species in TOR era, it seems they stay true to Celestials and Kwa did not or did follow a rogue party of Celestials.

    Also it still waits for further detailing what the Sharu maximal extend of power and influence was once. we know their reduced state and we know they once stretched as far as Aargau! So probably covering a quarter or nearly half the galaxy with Celestials busy in the other half and all around the Sharu holdings.

    The Rakata were no servant species of the Celestials or were they? Maybe they spread revolution amongst service species to rebel against the gods so to speak. And in the end the rebels turned into gods themselves oppressing others. First Kwa follow Rakata to war against the Gree, then they themselves are subjugated and devolve. Killik too listen to Rakata joiners and thus attack Korriban and Alsakan and are punished by Celestials. in the end the Rakata then shared the same fate they gave the Celestials... defeated by a slave/servant uprising only that the celestials were not superevil or not all were if we tie Abeloth into this as rogue Celestial-wannabe that tried to become a god. Killiks show Abeloth as a woman.. .human? Maybe she was once a female Rakata, ha!
  8. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    We have several informations... for one, people like Abeloth trying to become a Celestial/One, and then this that Celestials can become Ones. then the Ones wanted to make Anakin into one of them, a mere human. Abeloth wants to recreate a Mortis family out of humans. Not to get into the how with pool, and co here but all this adds up to the following:

    Celestials are not a species or beings that are just in the Force but rather Celestials = THE FORCE = everyone that is the force and joined it, all forceghosts, all dead past present and future and even the universal energy field of the Force in its entirety. Kinda God as the one who is all that is or if unchristian, the source, the allencompassing universe. Indirectly all species and beings are already Celestials at their core in that they are part of the Force, creating it, tied together by it. Yet they can become Celestials beyond shadows by joining with the Force fully again instead of remaining in the limited corporal form. dead they can forceghost and retain individuality for some time but ultimately would want to join the Force (unlike Sith :p) but well.

    Now does this make Abeloth what? A mortal who tried to become a Celestial without loosing individuality. Sithy indeed. Only that she was successful to a degree further than other Sith.

    As for the Father, Son and Daughter. Where do they come from? were they human(oid) once? or do they stem from celestials inside the Force? a mother there was before abeloth we were said. so what happend to her? how did she die? and did they have kids before they became Ones or thereafter? Given we have planets resembling Mortis and Abeloth with them and suchs tuff I tend to think they like Anakin once were mortals elevated to rank of Celestial Ones by Celestials/Force. Whoever had that role previously we do not know and why they gave it up for them, no idea. Well going by LOST which influenced Mortis with the Protector of the Island and Monster and such.. many paralells can be used to make sense of this I think since they already said it was a direct influence. which I love by the way.
  9. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Heh, would be interesting perhaps if Abeloth was not originally human but an alien woman. Helps shift the way things are since I must confess I always assumed Abeloth to had been a human or near-human. But to see Servant Abeloth who became a mortal Mother to the Son and Daughter to be a female Rakata would have been... interesting... to say the least. Mind you, after drinking from the Font and bathing in the Pool, I think her race/form/shape would no longer be the same.

    I think it was the Warfare guide that says the Rakata were also servants of the Celestials. On the Kwa, an interesting note I think came from Book of Sith is that the Nightsisters say that the Kwa Infinity Gates created unnatural voids on Dathomir which angered the Spirits. As a result, the Rakata were 'summoned' to destroy the Kwa civilization and the spirits 'forced' the Kwa back to their 'animal state' so that they could never use technology again. Now, with the whole thing with the Winged Goddess and Fanged God possibly being Daughter and Son... could this imply they called the Rakata to end a possible Kwa uprising that came with them fighting the Gree? We know from the Atlas that the Kwa Infinity Gates are based on Celestial principles... maybe, they rebelled and started shooting Infinity Waves at other worlds with no regard to cosmic balance?

    God, I love this topic and glad that its kept on going with lots of good input from all you guys. It will never reach the size of the Fleet Junkies but maybe this can remain consistent thing on the forums :D Though we need a name...Celestial Junkies? For fans of all the elder races from the galaxy far, far away! :p

    EDIT: Hmmm, an intriguing line of thought on there CeiranHarmony. Mind you, I think that the Celestials are part of the Force but not the Force itself. Basically, the line of thinking that Plagueis had namely that the Celestials are these grand cosmic manipulators who have goals so far beyond mortal thinking.
    Last edited by Cronal, Sep 23, 2012
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  10. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    Rakata as servants called to bring down the Kwa... after they in secret instigated them to rebel maybe? And this must be after the war between gree and kwa! So.. Kwa built infinity gates and waged war against the Gree... only then they were put down by the Rakata. So the Ones waited at first before calling in their Killsquad. In all sources the Kwa seemed to be peaceful and good guys, be it Quinlan Vos comics or Courtship etc. so I cannot imagine them to be the ones who started it, rather being tricked into it.

    and yeah I love the Book of Sith's Dathomir section.. sole reason for getting two copies of the not exactly cheap thing.

    And from that source we know that Son and Daughter often appear/act in unision, united by the need to act as opposed as their powers are, if comparing them to ying/yang and creation/destruction rather than good and bad as Mortis proofed. So Abeloth wanted to separate son and daughter we also know, make them fight.. turn them to her side instead of Father's. So what if Abeloth caused the gree-kwa war to further not only her own goals but also to split son and daughter into opposing camps further. yet they responded in unision bringing down the kwa and not the gree with Rakatan help. The Rakata rose in the favor of the Celestials replacing the Kwa maybe.. and thus got more prominent, more secrets.. and the means to rise and overthrow them later on?

    Next then would be the Killiks who through Rakatan joiners went to war against Korriban and Alsakan.. and got punished. again Rakata profited for being the more important servant race with Killiks and Kwa gone. Only the Gree remained as competitor.. no match to the Rakata who had taken Dathomir, tried to keep Korriban, had Alsakan, and many other worlds. With a war erupting to take out the gree, the Celestials lost their last servant race and had to watch the rise of the Rakata unable to take action. To take action they needed servants, willing to serve them.
    They had only three options left... become mortal to face the Rakata at the risk of loosing given their power and dominance already, or unleash the Destroyer, Abeloth they had imprisioned. Both were not really good options, and they'd hardly unleash Abeloth after the Killiks and others all together had been needed to imprision her. So they waited.. Thus they created the Tho Yor as mysterious as themselves to collect candidates and see if they could evolve with time into the Je'daii they needed. Harmony serving Forceusers. New servants that would one day face the Rakata starting their downfall and a rise of new servants of light and darkness.
  11. Lando Carmello Jedi Youngling

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    Sep 22, 2012
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    I cannot wait for the next SWTOR update.
  12. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Wasn't there a sourcebook in the last few years that established that Jedi Force ghosts aren't as "one with the Force" as we all took it, but that there was some weird degree of agency involved, with them choosing to return from the netherworld, and that it was presented in the sourcebook as an almost selfish act to some extent? All this talk of Ones and Celestials is kind of reminding me of that... with people being part of the Force, but then detaching themselves from it again to interact with the corporeal world.

    Not that I ever liked that description of how Jedi ghosting worked, as it ran completely against the grain of what I always thought it was.

    Nevertheless, the mechanics of ghosting aside, that description still seems to ring true with how the Ones appear to form -- with the "mother" being a metaphor for the Force, from whose body they [re]emerged to act as guides for the realm of mortals, serving as shepherds of the Force's ["mother's"] will.
  13. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    On the Wook, the revelation that Force Ghosts aren't "one with the Force" and are instead actively denying its will is sourced to the CSWE. [face_plain]

    Though, of course, this misses the entire point that: "to become one with the Force, yet influence still have. A power greater than any, that is." (RotS novel)

    It's reduced them to the level of Sith spirits: selfish parasites resisting the breakdown of their Selves, as opposed to people with Selves so in tune with the Force that they survive becoming one with it. But, then again, expecting any sort of coherence in this franchise when it comes to the metaphysics is probably a fool's game. (EDIT: Gosh, I'm actually bitter about this, aren't I? [face_laugh] )
    Last edited by Ulicus, Sep 23, 2012
  14. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 17, 2009
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    Plus, thanks to Warfare, we have a definitive confirmation on Killik/Rakatan conflict with that one image of a seemingly Killik world under Rakatan invasion. So, potentially possible...
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  15. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    well you have a point there but I can set it straight :p

    of course it is seflish to retain individuality to return as Forceghost, but there is an essential difference to Sith Spirits. They return only and only so long the Force allows them to in order to do the Force's Will by guiding the mortal and utilising merely guidance and hardly all the powers one gets upon joining the Force. Thus, they do it on the Force's behalf.. not their own and are less seflish rather than selfless in that they do not seek personal unification but give their appearance/body to the Force as its vessel for guiding others towards its will.. as Obi Wan did with Luke, guiding him to Dagobah! Sith spirits are different a lot then if viewing it like this ;)
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    "One with the Force" has meant differing things over the years. It didn't originally refer to Force ghosting, or even death. It was used in SOTE to apply to Luke, and I think we can all agree Luke didn't ghost in SOTE. I think it's sometimes been used to refer to death ( without ghosting ) in the same sense as ROTS's "transform into the Force". In Revan the Exile's ghost status was described as not having become one with the Force. The ROTS novel is the only source I can think of offhand which uses the term to describe Force ghosting. But even if one were to say that a Force ghost is not "one with the Force", I don't think that would mean that Force ghosts deny or resist the will of the Force. I tend to think that Force ghosts are very much in line with the will of the Force.
  17. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    @CeiranHarmony

    The problem is that the CSWE -- according to the Wook -- says the Force Ghosts deny the will of the Force. That's why I refer to them as having been reduced to the same kind of selfish undead as Sith spirits.

    Yes, of course. I'm not saying that everyone who's "one with the Force" (in the sense of having "transformed into the Force") is a Ghost, but that every Force Ghost should be considered one with the Force.

    Wheres a Sith spirit is at odds with the Force's will, and resisting becoming one with it. They're undead (or unliving) rather than dead (or Alive in the Force).

    Which I will continue to argue is daft, unless the kind of "entity" she is isn't supposed to be a true Force ghost. :p

    But the fact the CSWE is being attributed as saying that a Force ghost "denies the will of the Force" on death is my main issue. That... completely misses the point of what a Force Ghost is supposed to be, in my view: the highest example of one being in step with the will of the Force.

    Yeah, I think they should also be considered to be "one with the Force" but only because I interpret that to mean "one with the Force's will", in most instances.

    If someone who actually has the book could clear this up, I'd appreciate it for sure.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Sep 23, 2012
  18. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    I've got the book, but don't have it to hand this actual moment.

    I'll look it up tomorrow though if nobody else does beforehand.
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  19. Ulicus Lit'ari

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  20. Cronal Jedi Grand Master

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    Is this the RotS part in the novel?
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  21. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    Here we go:
    So according by the CSWE, Jedi and Sith spirits are exactly the same, both deny the will of the Force, with darksiders just refusing to ever back down and fade...

    And Palps was teaching the same technique... uh, yeah... you read that right. o_O

    I'm inclined to put this down to encyclopaedic simplification.
    Last edited by Zorrixor, Sep 24, 2012
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  22. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    Thanks, Zor.

    And... goddammit, CSWE.
  23. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

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    *rolls eyes* damn you Voren Naal.. oh this time it was not his fault? well.. lets blame him anyway! But where did the CSWE take this intel from?
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  24. Zorrixor Chosen One

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    The biggest "huh?" for me is the notion that it takes a ton of dark side energy to destroy a malevolent spirit... as isn't it usually light side energy that is used to destroy Sith spirits? (Or is this suggesting the reason Exar Kun was just trapped was because the Jedi weren't willing to use the dark side to destroy him, and so could only imprison him using the light side?)
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    [IMG]
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Sep 24, 2012