Rebels Ancient Sith

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by darklordoftech, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    One thing I'm glad TCW did with Onderon was that it pretty much retconned the stupid moon thing. The original setup had Onderon with a large moon in a really really low orbit, so close that the planet and the moon somehow shared atmospheres, with an isthmus of atmosphere that the flying beasts could use to move between the planet and moon.

    It made my head hurt. So many things were wrong with it. It's an example of the kind of thing that makes me be of the opinion that people should be required to have at least a cursory grasp of orbital mechanics / astrophysics before they sit down to write sci-fi.
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 13, 2013
  2. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    My thought exactly. If the satellite is that close to the planet, shouldn't Onderon's gravity well literally pull its moon right onto the planet's surface? Something like this, but not as dramatic:
    [IMG]

    Then you wouldn't have that moon at all, but a single planet that would gradually reform into a sphere over the course of many millennia.
  3. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    Here's how it was depicted in the comic:

    [IMG]

    It's a large moon, perhaps not as big as Earth's, but likely quite a bit larger than the dwarf planet Ceres... And it's sitting there at roughly an LEO altitude.

    For starters, a large round moon could not exist that close to the planet's surface, because it is deep inside the Roche Limit. This has even appeared already in SW, albeit renamed the Ambak Limit after the fictional SWU scientist who described it.

    Also, the shared atomsphere thing would be fun... even if we assume that the moon is made of solid cast adamantium, and therefore not vulnerable to tidal effects ripping it apart... it's still whipping around every 90 minutes or so at that altitude... I'm talking winds in the multiple 1000s of mph here continually devastating both worlds..

    And of course, the friction from the atmospheric interplay would decay Dxun's orbit in short order and it would collide with the planet - its orbit would never be stable for more than a few years, a few decades at most.

    Onderon would never have been inhabited by humans, or indeed any organism above the level of bacteria.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It did say it's only "at times" that the atmospheres link- if it was an elliptical orbit with it only spending a short period inside the Roche limit, it could last longer. Not very, though.
  5. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah, according to the Wook, Dxun's orbit overlaps Onderon's atmosphere during the summer season, which is admittedly fairly brief, but consider that over the course of millions of years this has been happening, one wonders why the orbit hasn't already decayed to the point where the moon would be dragged into the planet's gravity well permanently. Even if that weren't the case, basic physics indicates that Dxun would gradually lose mass to Onderon's gravity during each close orbit, and eventually it will either fall into the planet or collapse due to tidal forces (if it's not made of material strong enough to resist it) and form a ring around Onderon.

    Not to mention, as Valkyrus has noted, during those instances that the planet and moon share an atmosphere, tidal forces and atmospheric conditions would be so violent that multicellular life on Dxun and on Onderon would be virtually impossible to exist, let alone be an inhabitable planet of millions.

    In effect, even though I'm no astrophysicist, this really stretches my suspension of disbelief.
  6. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    No. Still not acceptable. The roche limit for an Earth-sized world is more than twice as far away as the geostationary ring (which is the furthest position that artificial satellites are commonly placed in). But the depiction of Onderon and Dxun shows them at LEO distance apart.

    If this orbit were real, Dxun's first periapsis passage would be its first last and only periapsis passage. After which it would become the Rings of Onderon.

    This kinda stuff annoys me and takes me out of the story.

    I have no problem with all kinds of fancy sci-fi tech doing "impossible" things because you suspend disbelief and imagine that technology has been invented that can do those things. Ships flying faster than the speed of light. Energy swords that cut through anything. You just imagine that that technology has been invented. So that's ok...

    I also have no problem with magic/supernatural powers when that is what they are explicitly supposed to be. In the context of SW, this means the Force and all of that.

    But when neither of those things are in play - and this is the case for the normal interactions of planets, moons and stars - the assumption is that the ordinary physics that prevail should be the ordinary physics we are familiar with. So it would help to have people writing the stories who actually know how said physics work, or at least have something of an idea of what's plausible and what's just impossible.
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 13, 2013
  7. Darth_Arapsis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2013
    star 2
    Since we are getting geeky. How many earth months is a year in SW.?
  8. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    I seem to remember 13 but I need to double check. I do remember that their months are shorter than ours, only 24 or 25 days.
  9. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    Sure. Using the Galactic Standard Calendar, we see there are approximately 368 days in a year, which is 10 months, 3 festival weeks, and 3 holidays in a GFFA year. There are 365 days in a year here on Earth, so it comes out to still be approximately 12 earth months in a SW year. :-B So it's about the same length of time.

    And AF, there are actually 35 days in a month in SW, so it's actually slightly longer.
    Last edited by Circular_Logic, Jun 13, 2013
  10. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  11. Darth Valkyrus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 4
    What year?

    The Galactic Standard Year is the Coruscant Year.

    The Corscant year is 368 days (3 days longer than earth).

    I think Coruscant's sideral day is the same.

    Below that hours, minutes, seconds... but are their hours minutes and seconds the same as ours? Heh, we've never been told I guess.

    At the end if we imagined some hypothetical meeting between people from the MW/Earth and the GFFA, standardization of all that stuff would be apt to boil down to some universal constant. Things which should be identical everywhere in the universe, and give you something to build a weights/measures equivalency chart. Like the speed of light in a vacuum. Or the hyperfine transition of neutral hydrogen.

    Edit: Ninja'd.
    Last edited by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 13, 2013
  12. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
  13. KenobiSkywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Even then, the speed of light in a vacuum might not actually be constant.
    Circular_Logic likes this.
  14. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Where?
  15. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Fun stuff, but back to the ancient Sith, yes?

    I've always hoped for a nice, in-depth exploration of Korriban, and once TCW was cancelled, I imagined our only hope for the near future might be the ST (which I would still welcome). And speaking of 'fun stuff,' how about the Valley of the Dark Lords, ancient ruins of Sith temples, Sith spirits and holocrons (basically everything @Circular_Logic already mentioned)? Ooh, yeah, gimme some of that, please!

    Now with Rebels on the horizon, just maybe...
  16. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Oh yeah!
    @Darth Valkyrus I wonder whether or not GL and Filoni acknowledge Freedon Nadd
  17. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Ragnos will say to Sidious, "I appointed Kun to stop Emperors like you!"
  18. CommanderColt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2013
    star 1
    Rebels examining ancient Sith history could only lead to the most massive retcon in the history of Star Wars cannon (well, until Ep VII retcons the Solo twins and entire post-Ep VI EU out of existence anyway). Ancient Sith history in the EU is a jumbled mess.

    The idea of Sith holocrons showing up in Rebels is interesting though. Since (Jedi) holocrons made an appearance in TCW there is on-screen precedent for their use. Hopefully Rebels would do better with holocrons than TCW did and actually show someone use one to access its knowledge (instead of using the holocron to read the data on some silly crystal that, conveniently, is the only place they store the names of Force sensitives in the galaxy).
  19. Darth_Arapsis Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2013
    star 2
    Why not Rebel jedi since Order 66 is a joke compared to what it once was.
  20. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Rebels could make sense of it all.
  21. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    I'd rather see the one who kicked his ass, plus we've already seen Bane mock Krayt... so I'd have them open up Zannah's holocron where she extolls the virtues of Bane's the Sith being forever... Maybe she retells the story of the battle to overcome her master and that is when Palpatine starts getting delusions of living forever?
    Mia Mesharad and Circular_Logic like this.
  22. Circular Logic SWTV Interview Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2013
    star 4
    Interesting suggestion there. Are you saying that it was perhaps Darth Zannah who gave Palpatine the idea of utilizing essence transfer to achieve immortality? After all, IIRC, Bane tried to use it to possess his apprentice but was subsequently vanquished.

    As I mentioned earlier, I'm not overly familiar with the ancient Sith Lords and neither have I read Legacy (so I can't really comment on Krayt), but either way what I really want is to see Sidious and Vader utilizing these ancient Sith holocrons, which would be an excellent way to reference the extensive Sith EU stories.
  23. AnakinColodin Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2009
    star 2
    Since per TCW, Maul is still running around and now sorta back in the fold as Sidious did not kill him on Mandalore. Maybe they could do an Sith centered arc for Rebels were Sidious is testing Vader by ordering Vader and Maul to recover an artificat on a old sith world.
    darklordoftech likes this.
  24. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    Exactly what I was thinking when I started this thread. I want to see Sidious reflect on how he outdid all those old Sith Lords and Rakata.
    Last edited by darklordoftech, Jun 21, 2013
    AnakinColodin likes this.
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    We do see a bit of him doing so- but in a background book- Book Of Sith. Lots of annotations by him, and the last chapter is written by him.
    Trebor Sabreon and Mia Mesharad like this.