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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT And if the TESB had not been a success.

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by MisterJedi2002, Jul 30, 2017.

  1. MisterJedi2002

    MisterJedi2002 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 17, 2017
    If the movie had not gone well at the box office. Could it still have been made Return of the Jedi? Or would it be the end of Star Wars?
     
  2. ezekiel22x

    ezekiel22x Chosen One star 5

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    Aug 9, 2002
    They probably would've went with a part three that called back to the original in more obvious ways. Tatooine opening with a big alien spread reminiscent of the sand people and cantina. Another Death Star that needs to be destroyed. And since the "adult" atmosphere of ESB flopped in this hypothetical, I could see them trying a lot harder to appeal to a young demographic. The Rebel Alliance probably would've teamed up with the Care Bears.

    Would've made for a crazy film!
     
  3. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Star Wars was the biggest film of all time. Even if Empire was horrible it still would have made money. Thankfully it was even better. :vader:
     
  4. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 1, 2012
    And incidentally, made less money that ANH.
     
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  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    If TESB had made less than it did, Lucas would have still made ROTJ, but with less money spent and a smaller finale. It would have to only make even less than it did to film it, for Lucas to not finish the trilogy.
     
  6. I Are The Internets

    I Are The Internets Shelf of Shame Host star 9 VIP - Game Host

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    Nov 20, 2012
    ROTJ would've been much much much worse.
     
  7. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016
    Never thought of this.... If it had how somehow failed then I'm assuming Lucas would have pushed ahead with a smaller scale budgeted ROTJ. I'm not sure what direction he would have gone with it though. Lucas had absolute control at that point so I think he would have made a much different film than what we got.
     
  8. Nibelung

    Nibelung Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Apr 18, 2017
    I doubt it would've been too much different, to be honest. ROTJ is clearly a film where budget-consciousness was a priority from the start. Lucas was preparing to spend money elsewhere (e.g, Skywalker Ranch), and was starting to get a bit sick of operating in the public eye.
     
  9. Sarge

    Sarge Chosen One star 10

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    Oct 4, 1998
    Now I'm wondering if RotJ might have been better with a smaller budget. If they had cut back on the monsters in Jabba's palace, and not spent so much on Ewoks and their village, I'd probably like it better. Well, as long as they didn't skimp on the space battle and throne room scenes, which are pure gold.
     
  10. Rickleo123

    Rickleo123 Jedi Knight star 3

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    May 20, 2016
    We all know Lucas planned on making Splinter of A Minds Eye instead of ESB had ANH failed but I honestly do not think Lucas had the same backup plan in mind if ESB had been a catastrophic box office failure. Would he have even bankrolled ROTJ if he thought he would lose money again? He certainly couldn't take the story anywhere differently as the narrative was set in stone at that point.
     
  11. MisterJedi2002

    MisterJedi2002 Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 17, 2017
    He earns less money because he initially received medium-sized reviews.
     
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  12. christophero30

    christophero30 Chosen One star 10

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    May 18, 2017
    Plus I remember people not being happy with the cliffhanger downbeat ending. Not me I saw it like 20 times. :)
     
  13. Darth Dnej

    Darth Dnej Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 27, 2013
    I'm pretty sure there would still be enough money in the bank for Return of the Jedi, but the budget would probably go down a lot. Higher than the original Star Wars, but less than Empire. So probably about $10-13 million.
    The studio might even have put George back in the director's chair, since they might blame Irvin Kershner for Empire's lack of box office performance.
    Storywise, we probably would have less of Jabba's Palace, Wookies instead of Ewoks (at least if Wookies could be cheaper, maybe they couldn't be), and a palace for Palpatine instead of another Death Star.
     
  14. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    People are forgetting the Elephant in the room the Christmas Special.[face_clown]
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    Fox had no control over Lucas on the sequels due to the fact that they signed away the sequel rights to Lucas, so that he could fund them himself. They could only exert control if he signed an agreement to let them have control, in order to have their financial backing.


    Which was funded by others and not Lucas, and relied on stock footage from ANH.
     
  16. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    From what I've read, the cost overruns on ESB meant that it had to make something like 50-60 million at the BO.
    I assume this means domestic.

    Lucas was not happy about this as sequels tended to gross less than the original.
    So ESB had to be one of if not the highest grossing sequel for this to work.

    With RotJ, the cost overruns there were even bigger and now the film had to make something like 115 million at the BO.

    And Lucas had spent a lot of money on expanding Lucasfilm, as well as ILM and other companies. He was building up a business Empire.
    And a big part was Skywalker ranch.
    That was his dream project and was very expensive.
    He had to buy up land, pay for permits etc.

    Had ESB failed then it is quite possible that Skywalker ranch would never had been completed and Lucas would have to forget about it.

    Lucas might save it by selling the rights to SW to Fox. But if ESB had failed, then he might not get as much for it.

    And this is a possible way for more SW films even if ESB bombed.
    Sell the rights to Fox and let them make films.
    I doubt Lucas would want to make any as this failure had cost him so much.

    I've even read that Lucas did toy with the idea to sell SW after ESB so that he could patch things up with Marcia. Their relationship had become somewhat strained during the production of ESB. And initially he did plan to be less involved with the third film. He wanted Spielberg to make it and leave it in his capable hands he could take it easy.
    But the battle with the DGA stopped that.

    Again from what I've read, two things made Lucas worry during the production of ESB.
    The lackluster BO of the sequel of American Graffiti and the struggle Coppola had to go through to make Apocalypse Now.
    Coppola put his own money on the line as well as his house and the production was grueling. Coppola lost a lot of weight and had the film flopped, he would have lost most of what he had.
    So it is not strange that Lucas was worried about budget on ESB.
    He had seen that sequels could do badly and he saw one of his close friends almost go under when making a film.

    So what would this have meant for SW?

    It would likely have been quite bad.
    People might regard the first film as a fluke and not be interested in more films.
    If Lucas sold the rights then there would likely be more films but with less budget and how they would have faired, that is unknown.
    Would Harrison come back? If ESB flopped that is doubtful. Mark and Carrie were still under contract so they had to.

    So SW might have become a great first film, followed by very inferior sequels.

    Someone mentioned the holiday special.
    If ESB had been a commercial and financial bomb, those two things combined could have damaged the brand a lot.

    But thankfully ESB did better than even the most optimistic projections and SW lived on.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
  17. Dr_Cthulhu

    Dr_Cthulhu Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 29, 2015
    Fox shouldered part of ESB's cost when the movie went over budget as Lucas was unable to secure more financing from the bank, and I imagine they would be willing to back the finale even if Empire had failed, just to maintain a relationship with Lucas who would still be red hot because of the success of Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981). Successful sequels were unheard of at that point, so Lucas would have had no choice but to negotiate with Fox for the money, probably losing control of future sequels and merchandising in the process. Without Laddie's backing, Lucas would have been bullied by Fox into making their film, but I doubt the result would have been much different from what we got.
     
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  18. Nibelung

    Nibelung Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Apr 18, 2017
    In other words, there's basically no difference between the cash-strapped, market-ready film Fox would've had Lucas made had they controlled him, and the film Lucas made on his own with his own time and money.
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The Planet Of The Apes sequels
    The Godfather Part II
    The French Connection Part 2
    Damien : The Omen 2
    Jaws 2
     
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  20. Dr_Cthulhu

    Dr_Cthulhu Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 29, 2015
    Ok, I should have added, "science fiction", which was not that popular at the time. And none of the sequels to Planet of the Apes grossed more than $20 million - hardly the kind of gross that would have convinced most financiers to cough up the $10+ million for a Star Wars sequel.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    And they only cost around a tenth or more of that to produce, market and distribute.
     
  22. Dr_Cthulhu

    Dr_Cthulhu Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 29, 2015
    But I don't think Lucas would have been satisfied with spending less than what he did for Star Wars. And by the end of Empire, the story had grown a little more complicated. So, had ESB been a disastrous flop, would Bank of America or First Bank of Boston, who would not cough up more than $25 million for Empire - a sequel to a gigantic hit, be prepared to pay $8 million for a third film? I think the only recourse for Lucas would be to approach Fox again.
     
  23. BookExogorth

    BookExogorth Force Ghost star 4

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    May 4, 2017
  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Of course not. If you spend over thirty million to produce a film you're looking to make several times that back in order to make it profitable.

    I think the bank loans were covered by the merchandising. It wasn't in danger of ruining Lucas but it might have finished Star Wars. The aim of self financing was that it would make Lucasfilm truly independent if it was as big a hit as the first one. It was, so we got the final Star Wars film and then George went on to finance and make all his small personal art films. ;)
     
  25. Nibelung

    Nibelung Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Apr 18, 2017
    Which are currently locked in a vault where only a select few ever see them.
     
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