ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

Much of Palpatine's backstory was relegated to the background (in terms of his upbringings), yet the films gave him enough character insight and motivations to be interesting and something to look forward to. Snoke is nothing. He's barely a character and more of a writing device for Kylo Ren. And if he's blatantly nothing, the impact of the subversion becomes weak and undermines Kylo Ren's credibility as a villain. How can we be scared of Kylo Ren when he only got a lucky chance to kill Snoke and then still acts like a kid? If Kylo Ren managed to make Snoke cower in fear and we learn that Snoke is indeed truly a paper tiger, that would be a different story.

 

Nope, you’re looking through the lens of all the GL films. The OT offered less. And Ren’s killing Snoke wasn’t motivated by love and repentance and took cunning. Vader blindsided cripple and ceased to be Vader. Ren completed his training by killing Snoke.

 

I am looking through the lens of GL because TFA and TLJ are Episode VII and VIII respectively of that Star Wars Saga that GL created. OT gave us a character, a villain who foresaw victory and reacted to a defeat. The Emperor was the final boss and he lived up to that name. Snoke is inevitably compared to Sidious because Sidious is the gold standard of villainy.

Snoke had some potential, but he was killed abruptly and anticlimactically. Kylo Ren didn't show why he is the more superior threat than Snoke. He just did a cheap shot. How powerful would he be if he made Snoke grovel for mercy before Kylo Ren kills him?

That is something I thank @godisawesome for showing in the other thread recently.

 

If Snoke had groveled for mercy, then he’d really be terrible. And Vader merely tossed Palpatine into the chasm when he was focused on Luke. Ren didn’t take a cheap shot. He deceived Snoke. Snoke has proven he had great mental powers—and he misread Ren.

Furthermore, neither Vader nor Ren has the power their masters had. So they couldn’t rely on power to win. For Vader, it was a metanoia—complete change in his personality as the love and good in him lead to his giving his life. For Ren, imagine if he had failed.

Your understanding has proved to be very crude.

 

Snoke groveling for mercy would make Kylo Ren appear much more threatening, which is something that the new Supreme Leader lacks. And he is weak apparently. Weak enough to have body guards stationed at all times. Weak enough to panic at the thought of Luke Skywalker being found. He's powerful but very frail. A perfect opportunity as a paper tiger.

And it would give Snoke character and something other than a Palpatine 2.0. It would establish Kylo Ren as the true villain of ST rather than a disappointing replacement. If Kylo Ren was always meant to be the big baddie, he must earn it. Killing Snoke abruptly doesn't have the satisfaction of seeing the big bad see his army and body guards turn against him while the new usurper takes the throne. What's more powerful? Kylo Ren killing Snoke instantly through a cheap move... or Kylo Ren crippling Snoke with that same cheap move and then makes him watch as his former bodyguards swear loyalty to his former apprentice.

Such is the grand coronation of evil that even Megatron and Darth Sidious would be proud of. And a perfect demonstration of the Rule of Two.

 

So, who's this Snoke? Why should I be impressed by that? Killing Snoke didn't seem that hard.

In all seriousness, the OT movies, while giving us very little on who the Emperor was, or perhaps even less on who Palpatine was, still gave us enough to piece together things. Way more than the ST had (and not just on Snoke but other connective story details as well). Obi-wan gave us a lot of exposition about the galaxy in ANH. A lot. In one scene, he told us about the history of the Republic, the thousand generations or so of Jedi Knights who protected it, the Force, the Clone Wars, the fall of the Republic, Luke's dad, Vader, Vader's fall, how Vader helped the Emperor hunt down and kill all the Jedi, Stormtroopers, and even trained Luke a little bit. On the Empire's side, Tarkin mentions that the Emperor was dissolving the Senate, the last glimmer of the Old Republic, how the Emperor planned on using fear to control the galaxy, how he belittled Vader and his old useless beliefs. In ESB, we see that even Vader, who was set up as the ultimate baddie, even he kneels before the Emperor, who is now hunting for Luke Skywalker, so that he can get him to join him.

Just from that, we knew enough about this guy. We knew enough to realize this guy must be powerful if he took over a thousand year Republic, turned it into an Empire, and managed to kill thousands of Jedi with Vader's help. Tell me, after 2 episodes of the ST, who is Snoke? (Not by what you assume, but by what the movie says)

The movie says, it doesn't even matter. That he's a red herring for Kylo, because Kylo is the one who's important. But because this trilogy exists within an established story, we don't have the same liberties as the OT had, in telling the tale or leaving details untold because it happened earlier. We should be told something about how EP 6 ended in peace, and how the Empire, whatever was left of it, was taken over by this new Baddie. I'm not saying we need a whole lot, but something is needed to establish something about him, so that whey Kylo does kill him, it feels earned, it feels powerful, it feels challenging, it feels daunting. Not knowing anything about Snoke, leaves me shrugging. Okay..great. Now Kylo's in charge. Whooopydooo.

EP 4 (we did'nt even know it was an EP 4 when this started) had plenty of room for leaving things up to the imagination. When we found out that the OT was EP 4, 5 & 6, we assumed that all that backstory, all that exposition was probably explained in detail in those 3 first episodes, which we just hadn't seen yet. EP 7 & 8, plop themselves in and say, continuity doesn't matter. The story doesn't matter. Snoke doesnt' matter. Stop complaining because the Emperor was never explained. But he was. The Emperor existed in a single story, that clearly had a well-developed history, and was slowly revealed to us over 30 years. Maybe not all at once, but it was told. To continue that story, we should be told why and how the new baddie wedged himself into this continuing story. Who he is, how he took over, something. ANYTHING. But the filmmakers, and I assume the fans, say it's actually not important. I feel it is, and I feel we got way more in the OT about the Emperor.

 

So will we get any other material on Snoke? Books, comics, anything?

 

http://www.slashfilm.com/snoke-episode-9/

http://screencrush.com/andy-serkis-snoke-backstory-star-wars/

 

We'll get a pamphlet explaining who he is. Everyone will get one in the mail.

 

I'd bet his name is never mentioned on screen again.

 

I would say the prequels gave Palpatine a backstory a Name but we hardly new who he was in the OT, he was just this evil hooded Emperor who was Vader's Master.

 

He was just a politician until the hologram scene in ESB. Only then did he actually become the big bad and Vader's boss. Even then, we still had to wait until the next film to see why he deserved that position. Yoda warns Luke that the Emperor is powerful, and then later we get to see him shoot lightning from his fingertips.

 

he was referred to as the Emperor in ANH I am almost sure of it. what I am really getting at all these people who want a Snoke Backstory where was the Huge backstory if any backstory of The Emperor in the OT? we didn't even know his name was Palpatine till the Prequels. The Name Palpatine was not used in The OT, and I will say the same thing I said to no Knights Of Ren, there is one more movie in the trilogy may be some how they flesh out The Knights Of Ren and Snoke in Episode 9...

 

You contradict yourself.

Snoke<Palpatine=Palpatine 2.0

What Rule of 2? Further evidence you wanted a Palpatine 2.0.

*bodyguards

How do we know Snoke had to have bodyguards at all times? Palpatine has bodyguards. Yes, he dismissed them in ROTJ—and was killed, an event Snoke was apparently more familiar with than you.

Again, it’s Vader if anyone who took a cheap shot, blindsiding a cripple and throwing him to his death. Nothing so dramatic as Force choke, lightsaber duel, or Force lightning. Yes, it’s canon now that he couldn’t use Force lightning because it’d short circuit his life support, but it isn’t inconceivable that there could have been an in-universe way to explain that he could use Force lightning.

Ren deceived Snoke. That’s more powerful and subtle than what Vader did.

And again we still have learned very little about Palpatine. Still.

Your obsession blinds you to logic, thus the screeds.

 

Impressive. You put words in my mouth and every word in those sentences are completely wrong.

Snoke being Palpatine 2.0. in TLJ is more or less of critique of how unoriginal he is. It is never a compliment in my books. If I'm thinking Palpatine when I see Snoke, I'm wishing for Sidious to return because Snoke is a lousy substitute. Additionally, I speak about the Rule of Two on behalf of Kylo Ren. If Kylo Ren wishes to be the main baddie of ST and Supreme Leader of the First Order, he ought to earn it. And thus, he must efficiently perform the Rule of Two. Why in the galaxy would I want Darth Sidious to be on the receiving end of the Rule of Two? He is supposed to be the undisputed king of evil. No one, not even Vader could overthrow him and take his place.

Snoke, on the other hand, is fair game for the receiving end. It would make him stand out from Darth Sidious. Even moreso if he is actually weak.

Additionally, Snoke's bodyguards being there 24/7 showcases a difference from Palpatine that could have been expanded upon. That Snoke was legitimately afraid of being killed compared to Darth Sidious, who was arrogant enough to dismiss his bodyguards in the anticipation of his victory. But no, Snoke acts like Sidious during the throne room.

Vader lost his lightsaber. He lost his hand. He was beaten. Sidious was never a cripple (Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor). And the film builds up to his climatic moment where he throws the Emperor into the shaft. A moment that cost him his life. The fact that it's a raw human with no Force powers makes it more powerful because it showcases that Vader will save his son even if he had no Force powers or lightsaber. Flashy Force powers and lightsabers are meaningless spectacles.

And yet, Darth Sidious is more interesting. He showed more character in ROTJ than Snoke ever did in ST. His rise to power was all you needed to understand who he is and what are his motivations in PT. He is the original and thus is the standard. Snoke is a copycat by comparison and every attempt to emulate Sidious only makes him a lesser of a character.

Which is why Snoke is nothing. Snoke is a joke for all to see.

I would rather have the cowardly and more wise foil figure in TFA than Emperor Plagiarism of TLJ. There was more character potential in TFA that was wasted by RJ.

 

I haven’t put words in your mouth. You do that well enough and brce more incoherent.

Vader had two hands, so one still available. He couldn’t summon his or Luke’s lightsaber with the Force?

We didn’t learn about Palpatine’s rise to power until the OT.

Everything else you write is opinion, fair enough, but unsupported.

 

The last thing you want is for Palpatine to see or hear the lightsaber. As far as I'm concerned, Vader's lightsaber fell into a bottomless pit. That and it wouldn't be as emotionally powerful if Vader pulled out a lightsaber to kill Sidious. Vader doing what he did was a fatal move, something that goes against the Sith's philosophy (Kylo Ren isn't really risking his own life). And considering what Vader has been saying before and after, he wanted to die when this is all over.

And for me, just because it worked for Palpatine doesn't mean it works for Snoke. Palpatine is a one of kind lightning in the bottle villain. He exemplifies the best of Star Wars villain and all other baddies have a hard time competing him let alone usurping him. He came before the EU fully established itself. Snoke came after the EU fully established itself. Thus, there are different expectations for this character. And making Emperor 2.0. is not the way I would go with. If you make him Emperor Palpy 2.0., at least make him a significant contrast to Palpatine instead of emulating everything Palpatine does.

 

If that works for you, then fine. Your opinions are just that—not fact nor immutable truth. And you twist things. He didn’t come fully formed before the EU.

Why do you need to preach your heterodox interpretation of the Emperor? Obsession? And again if Snoke is Emperor 2.0 he’s be the same. He isn’t.

When did Vader say he wanted to die before he killed Palpatine?

 

Snoke emulates too much of the Emperor in TLJ, enough for him to be Emperor 2.0. Everyone has said it. The scene with Snoke in the Throne Room is reminiscent of ROTJ except it feels like a direct copy. There's even a joke in a Nostalgia Critic skit where Snoke pulls out the ROTJ script to say his lines.

And considering that Vader said "It is too late for me" after Luke pleads him to turn back to the Light as well as the fact that Vader has been visibly electrocuted as well as calmingly accepting his death, it's quite clear that Vader saw no future in turning good and that serving the Emperor is all he has left until Luke came around. When you see the miserable face of Anakin under that mask, you can summarize that Vader knew of the fatal consequences of throwing Sidious into the pit while he's shooting lightning and yet accepts it anyways. And that makes it more powerful in my books.

 

Um, if everyone has said it,

1. I have said it.
2. There’s no one to convince as we’d all be in agreement.

Your sentence about the Throne Room is

1. Your feeling
2. Incoherent

You confuse your opinions for facts. They are not.

Because Vader felt it was too late to return to the light didn’t mean he wished to die. Au contraire, a Sith, he wanted corporeal immortality I’d we go by present canon, and by present canon and ROJT in 1983 he wanted to turn Luke. And if not Luke, Leia. Who knows, maybe even both as the Rule of 2 didn’t exist in canon then.

You didn’t reply about your claim Palpatine was fully formed before the EU.

A rational discussion is impossible with you. This atheist thanks God he doesn’t teach freshman comp anymore. The US educational system has failed.

 

Let’s discuss the topic, NOT other posters.

 

For the record.

How does that translates to:

The Emperor exists before the EU was fully formed. He did not came out of nowhere. He was there the entire time unlike Snoke. And what little we know about him is gradually revealed overtime and used to its advantage. There's a reason why Snoke is heavily criticized unlike Palpatine.

And what future lies for Vader if he turns good? The answer is jail, trial by the Rebel Alliance who would like to execute Vader for his crimes. There is no future for him other than the Emperor. So when he killed the Emperor, there was nothing else for him left other than knowing that his son is okay. He knew that he was likely going to die by killing the Emperor (for the Emperor would try to kill him in retaliation) and he accepts it.

 

Your speculation.

Also, if that’s what you meant by fully formed, then so is Snoke. But in either case we know little.

 

In OT, the Empire was the status quo. It was the introduction of the entire Star Wars franchise and the Empire was already in place with a given brief backstory of how it came to power. And thus the Emperor is the status quo. PT decades years later explained how that status came to be and expanded upon the Emperor character. Thus the Emperor became a central villain to the entire franchise that developed over time.

Snoke, as the successor to the Emperor, came out of nowhere. There was no explanation to his rise to power or his relationship with the Empire and the galaxy. Keep in mind, Episode VII is a sequel to Episode VI and the last six films gave us a fleshed out central villain that is Emperor Sheev Palpatine. So the expectations have been raised significantly for the new baddie. Questions were raised and the EU teased possibilities about Snoke's origins, character, motivation and rise to power, but they never explained them. It was presumed that TLJ would explain it, especially since in hindsight this would be his last film. But instead of giving something, the film gave us nothing about Snoke. He was just a powerful Dark Sider who was never hinted before in the previous movies and just when he got a bit interesting and reveal more about himself... he dies without much fanfare.

As such, he comes off as a plot device for Kylo Ren. Barely even a character or writing. He's a Diabolus Ex Machina for the galaxy and an easily disposable one to that. Mother Talzin was much more interesting than Snoke even though she mainly operated as a supporting driver for Ventress and Maul's character and we know so little about her at the time (and even then, TCW was planning to explain her real motivates and relations with Darth Maul before sending her off to the Netherworld).

At this point, having Kylo Ren turn the First Order against Snoke to take over the throne for himself, and then lecture to Snoke of how he is just a paper tiger, weak and unworthy to lead, would have made this character much enjoyable than I got out of TLJ.